Osiris

To me it's difficult to question the existence of free will. "I think, therefore I am". Well, the given quote assumes that the "I think" part is an actual fact. But what is the "I", and how can it be proven that the "I" actually makes the thought? Is the "I" your foot, your elbow, your brain, your whole body? Remember that people with missing limbs can still think, and people with brain damage may still think, but not as what it is expected. And what would be the difference in an animal thinking? I think the reason we can't define free will is because there is no such thing, it is an impossibility, just like a fully red marble that is fully blue, it is an impossibility. You see our actions, why do we do them? Is there a reason why we do something? If there is, then it is not free. If there is no reason, then it is not willed. There is no scenario that could prove that an action is willed and is free. If she had a reason to rebel (something caused her to rebel), then her actions were not free. If her actions were not caused by anything, then her actions were not willed. What caused that person to pull himself out of a situation? What is something that caused it? Then it wasn't free... Was it nothing that caused it? Then it wasn't willed... I think free will is just an illusion, if you knew me, you'd know that I would rather stay home and not go out on the weekends, but it would also depend where I would go... it all boils down to what I like and dislike, or better yet, to what my brain finds more appealing. Everyone chooses what appeals to them over the other choices. I think this would have to go towards the illusion again... the child is only choosing what it appeals to it. Well, if you bully a child, you are given them a reason(a cause) for them to hate you. The child did not choose to hate you, his will was not free; on the other hand, if you don't bully him, and he still hates you, then his hate was not willed.

I do think that crimes and drug addiction are bad things...

No! No! Nihilism! Argh! Run away! Run away! No, it is not really nihilism, I am not questioning to prove everything. I just think that free will is just an assumption, just because it 'seems' as though we do what we want doesn't really mean that we actually do what we want. Or better yet, what is it that causes us to do what we want? Yes, I somewhat agree, but in my mind, how it was described, I did not find compatability, this is why I came in and disagreed, sorry...

Apology accepted... Sorry, I read the post and responded with what I think it logically boils down to, and I felt that some of my responses were tore down by some members. I wouldn't rip into someone's post wishing everyone happiness, I would wish more happiness in return

I wouldn't say he's mocking....I thought that at first with him too( Osiris ) a month back; I thought he was simply being argumentative....but, I think he's searching. He has questions and is asking them in ways & on terms that he needs answered. So....Osiris, this time I'm kinda on your side of things. Thank you Bob Triez, I am glad you are... :t: Correct... I whole heartedly agree sir

Why are you asking this Osiris? Do you think those things are bad? ~ Martin no, not at all, the only thing is that it contradicts with what the bible or christianity has to say... You see, christianity has it that everything man does is a sin, and it is man's fault, in this scenario, God is the result of all the sin, God makes the sound, we are just his echo. This though is assuming that a god exists.

So, according to this, crimes that criminals commit or Adam and Eve eating from the tree, or anything that we do -- it is not really our fault because we are God's echo, God told us to do all this, he even told the AIDS virus to do what it does. Really interesting.... Not really Osiris. God maintains the fabric of our existence. If someone hand sews you a new coat, they have no control over the fact that you might decide to drag it through the mud. Well, according to original quote, everything is the way it is because God said it(we(our actions) are the echo, the result of what he said), if God echoed it, crimes and diseases must be a result of that echo as well. Define free will. Show proof that there is a such thing as free will. Do animals have free will? What creates free will, or where does free will come from? It is not? And why is it that at the end he only saves people that act like robots or puppets? And he destroys and condems to hell the free thinkers? At the end, that is it all there is going to be anyways, robots. But if one does choose right, and one is a nonbeliever, doesn't really help him much because God will judge him on his opinions not whether if he was a just and righteous man. He will be judged on a religious opinion of whether he thought god existed or not. No such thing as free will. If kids become drug addicts, what is the reason, why? Where there problems at home, were they hanging with the wrong crowd, peer presure? If the kid was raised with ethics, the chances are that he will resist peer presure, it is not that he willed it, his brain was trained that way. If he gives into peer presure, he might have learned ethics, but did not influence him as much as his friends do. I thought he was Love, I never thought God would act the same way unperfect human parents would act. How can someone be angry at something they think does not exist?

So, according to this, crimes that criminals commit or Adam and Eve eating from the tree, or anything that we do -- it is not really our fault because we are God's echo, God told us to do all this, he even told the AIDS virus to do what it does. Really interesting....

You sure about that? I use to be a JW, and I never heard such thing. Anyways, JW read the scriptures and in their minds they see all their teachings more reasonable than other religions, just like you find your teachings more reasonable than JW's. And since the bible is too vague, there is no way to tell if the JW are right, or someone else is right; all there is out there is opinions(and sadly this is what your God judges people on, opinions). And about their bible being translated, I bet they think they did a good job with their translation, just like King James thinks he did a good translation. And the only way to find out is to learn Greek and/or Hebrew and do the translation for oneself.

The way I see it, your analogy fails, because if I win a million dollars, I am not planning on giving it away to people. God on the other hand does want to give money away, he wants to give it to everyone, but he is sad that he is not able to. And about the right reasons, what are the right reasons to believe? You believe that cats exist, is there such thing of believing that cat exists for a wrong reason? Seeing hell and not wanting to go there would give someone more strength to trust in God for the right reasons (if there is such thing). I don't call myself wise. I think it'd be a "no brainer" for anyone to believe in something that didn't need proof. It was a "no brainer" to believe the earth was flat, it took brains to find out it wasn't and then believe the truth.

All your answers are the same ones I answered with when I was a christian. Up until 4 years ago. The mind is tricky that way.

This is why we read the Bible. Read it, see if it doesn't accurately describe the world you live in. See if Jesus' words don't ring true. Are you a semi-God that knows who have and have not read the bible? Jesus' words do ring true, when he talks about being good to your neighbor, but that had been said by many philosophers much much earlier than he did; so his teachings are nothing new. And the reason I have my doubts is because the logic that is behind in the bible is as follows but mostly everyone fails to see it... To a follower of this list, everything would seem true because "6. Doc is always right" How do we know Doc is always right? because 3, 4 and 9 are true. But how do we know that this list wasn't made up by someone else? Because 10 says "Doc dictated this list himself", and that is good enough. What about the moon being made of cheese and the earth being 5000 years old Well, we've never been to the moon ourselves so we can't say,and scientists aren't always right, and we know Doc is always right, so it must be made of cheese, and since Doc is always right, the earth must be 5000 years old. But treating people that don't believe in this list bad while they are alive and torturing them after death seems awful But it is ok because this is what Doc wants and from 2 we know that Doc knows best. So the best thing to do is follow what Doc says because he knows best. If God is calling us, why is he hiding? Why doesn't he talk to us like he talked to the people that assumedly were inspired to write the bible.

"How", with the big bang. "Why", does it have to be a reason? "Where", is this really needed to be answered? I think the faulty paradign on humans is that they think there has to be a reason for everything to be here, when in reality, there doesn't have to be one.

The power of fullfilled prophecy. Islam also claims it has fulfilled prophecies, other religions as well. There could be logical explations why it seems as fullfilled prophecies that no one knows about because the writers kept it a secret. Yes, but the accuracy of archeology doesn't have accuracy when it comes to fossils. And how does one know him?

So, light we have measured that has travelled 3.7 years to reach us is wrong because people think it contradicts with their scriptures. People during the flat earth years use to think that earth revolving around the sun use to contradict with their scriptures.

That's because you don't know Jesus. And you do? What does he look like? What color is his hair? his eyes? (please don't respond with poetry such as "his eyes are like the ocean") So, the only way I can know God exists, is if I assume God exists and bow down to him? You see, this is why I am an unbeliever, I would not feel honesty believing in something I have assumed from the start.

Also, if you don't honestly believe in Santa Claus, he won't give you a gift but instead he'll give you a coal... You also have to know that Santa knows if you are naughty or nice. If I knew God was real, I wouldn't be doubting his existance. Do you have any proof (not beliefs/opinions) that he exists so I can know as well, because they way you are going about it is that you assume that I know God exists and then remind me of what he is capable of; remember, I doubt that God exists and telling me things such as "God knows best" won't help me. Do you have proof that God knows best? If I have God's Spirit, would I be asking these questions? Thank you for the insult, I guess he is only my father right? If Satan is smarter than the smartest human, why would he go against God? I think he must be mentally retarded, would God judge a person with mental dissabilities? But sadly, only some christians have the spirit of God. The only sin I have is disbelief... And how does someone get blessed? You fail to see the logic that people that didn't follow christ could not help for their disbelief, if they knew Christ was the truth, why would they choose other wise? The punishment should fit the crime, any crime humans do here on earth would not deserve eternity, not even Hitler. You do know that punishment is so that a being can learn from it's mistakes and can become a better person (towards progression). How is punishment of hell make a person progress? Hell is more like vengance rather than a punishment. I can easily say myself that God is stronger than everything, or that superman is stronger than everything, or that Goku is the strongest, comic books have their whole story line based on good is greater than evil. Do I have any evidence of that? Remember you are assuming that I know that God exists, I do not.

Are these God's actual words, or did a human write them? How are you so sure it wasn't just only a human? Yes, and man believed that the earth was flat for many years, and man believed the sun revolved around the earth for many years. Until man that wanted to know "HOW and WHY" came along and tried to explained "how" and "why" certain things happened with science. But unfortunately, religion usually threatened these kind of people because it contradicted with that they thought their scriptures said. Unfortunately one of man's flaw is assumption. So the very science that allows you to talk to me on these computers is useless because it tells us that the universe is 13.7 billion years old rather than 6,000 years? You do know early christians did not accept a round earth; in my opinion, what you think you get out of some ancient writings does not compare to actual experiments and findings.

I am sorry for the things that you had to go through, but I guess muslim, jw, mormons and other non-christian religions would have stories that relate. One question though, did Jesus literally speak to you?

Not necessarily, I only choose what I think I should choose and so do you. Do you think that a computer program has free will because it is able to respond with its output? I think a person is the product of the environment. Example would be, I don't choose what language is my native language, my environment chooses it for me. I don't choose if I am born in a poor family, the environment chooses it for me. If my parents didn't teach me ethics or I was not educated, most likely I will turn into a criminal. What I've learned is that, even when you think you have control, you cannot choose anything but what appeals to you, how is that free will? Is this a fact, or is it an assumption? That is somewhat correct, not even yourself can force yourself to do something you might want to do. Try this experiment, try believing in Santa Claus, believe that he is real and that he exists. Can you honestly believe that Santa exists even if you choose to? The thing is, once your mind knows that you can't believe, you won't, you have no free will over that, your mind is the one in control. So, you think you have control of what you can believe, you will never honestly believe in Santa Claus unless some information makes you think other wise. Same for me, I won't be able to believe either until I acquire certain information and so far, I have not found it yet.

How has God made it possible for all to know the truth? Through the Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, Baghvat-Gita, Bible? I would say that to find the truth, one would have to question. Trying to find out how the universe works, is trying to see how God works(if he existed). And if you don't question your beliefs, how do you know you won't be deluded just how you think the non-believers and others from different religions are deluded? And as for myself, I don't think anyone knows the truth, if God exists or does not exist, or which religion God favors, all of it is just assumptions. This is my I rather stay agnostic, this is just my honest answer on the topic of God's existance.

What is free will? If there evidence that free will exists? If this were true, Hell would not exist. Did he choose pride? I don't believe freewill exists, so I don't really think that he chose pride himself. And another question, where did Satan's sin come from? If the sin came from within, then he wasn't really perfect (not his fault). If the sin came from outside, then were did the sin from that outside source come from? If you keep asking this ultimately you will arrive at a starting point which would have to be God. And remember, if the sin came from within, then that being wasn't really perfect to begin with. I can relate to some of the things you are saying, but I would have to say that some of these things would have to be your opinions on this matter, for I believe that Adam and Eve ate the fruit because they were gullible rather than having pride. For if they had pride, where did this pride come from, if it's within, then they really weren't perfect to begin with. Why spill blood? Couldn't God have done it without spilling the blood of innocent animals? Why not a dance? I know this concept is really hardwired into christianity, but I fail to see the justice in which God condems all for what one person did. So, we don't have freewill now? (although I don't think this concept exists) Why kill? Isn't this a sin? Wouldn't God's concept of returning us to perfection consist on sinning? Two wrongs don't make a right. But isn't this blaming Satan for what we do? I don't lie, and if I ever did, I wouldn't blame it on someone else; I don't think that one has to be christian to be honest. I know this doesn't have anything to do with christianity, but what you are saying reminds me of buddhism. Thank you 'His son', I won't give up.

It is one thing INQUIRING of this and edifying, opposite thing to 'force feed' REPEATEDLEY Many approaches are on these threads alone I suppose that if I "force fed" you the story of Santa Claus, you would believe it? And if a child does believe in Santa Claus, did he choose to believe in him? And you that you don't believe in Santa Claus, did you choose not to believe in him anymore, or did your mind just let go of this belief because of "reasons" and "information" inside your mind which logically would not allow you to believe in Santa Claus? I would have to say that you didn't have a choice in not believing in Santa Claus. And if you wanted to believe in him now, you'd only be pretending.

You don't have to depend on man's word. So we don't have to depend on the bible? This is presupposing that God exists, if one is a skeptic, this sentence would have the same meaning as "Santa would still bring you a gift if you were the only one here." I've done that lots of times, but the only way this works is if you ask with an open heart, mind and at the same time assume that God exists so you can then know that God exists. But I honestly cannot do this, because I would not feel honesty believing that Gods existance has been proven to me because I assumed it from the start. Belief is not a choice, one cannot choose what one believes. I feel it more as psychological(fear and reward).