Guardiands

Dad, You now see my point. Jesus says "God is spirit" Jesus says "those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit" Does that mean we have to leave our bodies behind to worship Christ? Of course not, because "spirit" is not in reference to corpreality. So that scripture no more says God is a spirit, than it says that we have to leave our bodies to worship God.

Dad ernie, You stated we should use the angles as examples of what God is. I disagree strongly. We should use CHRIST as the example. After all "if ye have seen me ye have seen the Father" John chapter 14. You're absolutley right about two kinds of bodies, and that's the point. Our mortal bodies are inferior. Yet a ressurected body is superior (as shown by Jesus) As for the scripture "God is spirit" it has nothing to do with his corpeality any more than the scriptures "God is love" and "God is truth" However, it is safe to say the bible neither says God has a body or does not (God the Father that is, we Know God the Son has a ressurected body) But I am happy to see you believe in a subordinate Christ. I agree that the scriptures seem to point that out.

Dad ernie, First off, I thoroughly enjoyed the way you presented those scriptures. It was a treat to go through your post, and to be quite honest I'll probably read it again. You bring up an excellent point, Christ did give up such qualities as His Omniscience, omnipotence, etc. So perhaps john 14:29 could be referring to only the lesser state that Jesus was in at that time. You brought up a great scripture in John, I believe it was John 20:28, I'm not positive. also to add to that is John 20:17 where Jesus states "I go to your God and to my God" This is the ressurected Jesus, glorified and restored to perfection. Yet he still refers to The Father as God (as you showed also in your post) to me this shows a form of subordination. Could either of us EVER see the Father calling Jesus "His God"?? no of course not. What is your thought on that Dad? Also on john chapter 4 where it reads God is a spirit, it should most likeley be translated as "God is spirit" Just as we find other scriptures reading "God is truth" and "God is love". None of these scriptures limit God the Father to not having a body. In fact, we KNOW that having a ressurected body is superior to a spirit because: a) Jesus died, was a spirit, and was ressurected, so now has a body. b) we will die, become spirits, and then will be ressurected So if having a spirit was superior, then logically Christ NOR us would be ressurected, but would remain in a spirit state. Anyways, your post dad showed me that John 14:29 could be referring to a subordinate state only while Christ was on the earth, but I feel other scriptures point to a subordinate role even AFTER Christ's ressurection. Your views? And what are your thoughts about God the Father having a body? I know it contradicts platonic thinking, but why Have Jesus and us leave a spiritual state to become ressurected into a body? Remember just because God has a body does NOT mean that His body has Him, His influence could still reach throughout the universe. Just as Christ's ressurected body did not limit him. Anyways Dad, thanks again for the majestic way of putting those scriptures together to show the connection between the OT and NT in regards to God coming down to atone for our sins. The abraham comment was great, the "play on words" Well gotta go

godrulz, thank you. I'm not very familiar with the four views you presented and will have to look into them more. Like I was telling ernie, I believe only a God could do an infinite atonement, but ernie brought some good points up. However, I still see NO scriptures stating that God the FAther and Jesus Christ are co substantial co eteranl and co equal (even if you can account for john 14:29, you don't show a scripture stating this changes...in fact it's clear there is a subordination in the scriptures, just look at rev 3:21 as one amoung many) So why do the creeds feel they have to add to the bible? Why not just have the bible as it is? With prophets, as Peter was a prophet, to interpret it (2 peter 1:19-21)

Dad ernie I appreciate your post. I always love to learn new things. So the only requirement is that he had to be sinless, and divinity was not a requirement? See in my view only a God could atone for the sins of all the world. But you bring a good point up by quoting the OT. What is the view of the majority of christians on this issue? And what do the creeds teach? Is that view dad part of the trinity (which I admit I know only a little about) ?

Hello all, I can't help but post a thing or two here. To me it's quite simple. Christians claim that the trinity is merely a summary of biblical data. So great. However, there seems to be a problem. No where do I find in the bible that God and Jesus co-existed, are co substantial or are co-equal. The bible does not even address two of these issues. (I know what you're thinking, God has been God from everlasting to everlasting, or for all eternity. I strongly suggest in such cases you refer to the greek where you'll find a better transtlation is ages, olam and aion hebrew and greek respectively. The jews understood eternity to consist of ages. Hence from creation to ressurection. To quote the evangelical chicago statement on biblical inerrancy "we only believe the bible to be infallible in what it affirms" no WHERE in the bible is the issue of BEFORE or AFTER eternity (olam and aion, AGES) addressed) So since a summary can NOT introduce material not included in the main body, we can conclude that the creeds are NOT a summary, and thus are mere philosophies of men. Once again co substantial, co eternal and co-equality of Christ and God the Father are NOT found in the bible. And in fact, John 14:29 shows otherwise ,I did read the earlier explanation, and it was wonderful. However, Jesus was both HUMAN and DIVINE, and he had to be FULLY divine, or else he could NOT do an infinite atonement. So Jesus clearly WAS as divine as could be, yet STILL the Father is greater than Him. If you interpret John 14:29 to imply that Christ while on EARTH was in a lesser state than a divine being, HOW can you account for Him making an infinite atonement, which only a FULLY divine being could perform? (I believe the common phrase is 100% man and 100% God) Hence John 14:29 could ONLY refer to a form of stratification amoung the Godhead. Now, What scripture can you show, in equally plain language, to show that they are co equal?