whirlwind

John is told to measure the temple in Revelation so if he is measuring the temple does that not mean there is a temple built in Jerusalem or shall we just take that page out of the bible.

Revelation 1

11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying,

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; AND LO, I AM WITH YOU ALWAY, EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE WORLD. AMEN.

We will be here. Prepare for tribulation saints.

So be it as it is written!! Amen!

What a terrific post........"as it is written. Amen !"

.........Whirlwind

To me, the word "fulness" as used in the verse in question does not mean conversion....it is speaking of God's wrath

Question is, how did you reach that conclusion? Romans 11 is not talking about God's wrath at all!

It is talking about the fulness of TIME for the Gentiles, not the fulness of their salvation.

Their "time" began in 636 when they took over Jerusalem. Their "fulness" comes to an end when Christ arrives at His 2nd Advent.

They are what the "Parable of the Fig Tree" is about....the bad figs!

.......Whirlwind

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:25 (KJV)

fullness 4138

G4138

πλήρωμα

plērōma

play'-ro-mah

From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Fullness does not reference any numerical element. As a rule, God uses time, not numbers of believers, as a measure. That's why the bible says, fullness of time........, there is a time for everything....., and the time came that...

Thank you for that informative post.

When the scripture says...."till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"does that mean, as I used to think, until all the Gentiles that can be saved are saved, or...is what you are saying above - until it's time for the Gentiles to meet God's wrath?

I, just recently, find that I believe it means the later....their time is drawing to a close and they will no more run over Jerusalem. Isn't it funny how you can look at the same scripture and all of the sudden see something so very different than before?

..........Whirlwind

When you look at Romans 11:12, you see the word fullness used in relation to the Jews

Romans 11:12 But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default is the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness?

The contrast shows them slipping away, and the fullness is them being saved. Paul uses that word in relation to the Gentiles in 11:25

Romans 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.

The word

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:25 (KJV)

fullness 4138

G4138

πλήρωμα

plērōma

play'-ro-mah

From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

Fullness does not reference any numerical element. As a rule, God uses time, not numbers of believers, as a measure. That's why the bible says, fullness of time........, there is a time for everything....., and the time came that...

Thank you for that informative post.

When the scripture says...."till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"does that mean, as I used to think, until all the Gentiles that can be saved are saved, or...is what you are saying above - until it's time for the Gentiles to meet God's wrath?

I, just recently, find that I believe it means the later....their time is drawing to a close and they will no more run over Jerusalem. Isn't it funny how you can look at the same scripture and all of the sudden see something so very different than before?

..........Whirlwind

Did we exist as souls prior to Adam's creation?

I'm sorry you feel as you do. I would never believe or repeat anything that wasn't scripturally founded.

Please forgive my intrusion on this thread.

.......Whirlwind

Whirlwind, you have a carefully crafted paper tiger, but it holds no weight. He didnt know us before this world because we existed in some previous world. That would make reincarnation fact. That also contradicts the bible where it is written

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

How could man die more than once in some previous age that you claim existed? That flies in the face of scripture. The concept of having previous earth ages is not supported by scripture either.

Thank you for your reply Ayin Jade,

I agree...there is NO reincarnation, we are "appointed once to die."

I disagree when you say there was no previous age as it is supported in scripture, including those of Ephesians and Romans given in the previous post about the elect. He tells us that he foreknew, predestinated and justified them.....when, where and why did He do that if not before this age?

I understand that it is not often taught....but it is true!

........Whirlwind

You are on the right path whirlwind, but chosen when? Is it because that the voice that said, Follow Me, and the face of the man that was looking at him, suddenly came into Matthews rememberence, and at that instance, He knew the voice and the face that he hadnt seen or heard for such a long time. What is one of our Lords titles. Emanuale, which means, God with us in the flesh. Matthew was chosen by our Father before the foundation of this world age was ever laid. So were the rest of the Apostles. Eph. chapt 1 Let me hear your imput tsth and whirlwind. God Bless

Chosen by our Father before the foundation of this world age!

You may be opening a can of worms but here goes

What does it mean "before the foundation of this age?" As Ephesians 1:4-5 tells us:

According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

And also:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

29.For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30.Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Those that God foreknew (from the first age) are those that stood against Satan when he rebelled. They are justified and glorified.....they are predestined in this age to do what God wants them to do. He will lead, guide and direct their life. Those of free will He will not interfere with unless they ask.

The elect that have died before end times are called the "remnant" and they take God's Word forward. We know that God is "no respector of persons." (Acts 10:34) So, the question is why would He have "chosen" and how could He foreknow and have justfied some if He is "no respector of persons?" He would not....they earned this in the first age and He knows He can count on them again in the end of days!

These elect are those that will be "delivered up"...(Matthew 24:9, Mark 13:9 and Luke 21:12) for a testimony. They will allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them and that will bring many that have been deceived by Satan to know the truth.

So...Matthew, as the others, were called and chosen from the first age. That is why he dropped everything he was doing and followed Christ. They had a destiny just as those that are being called now have. I believe that the following scripture applies to this event:

Mark 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."

Those, from the first age (those chosen in the first age), will be in this last generation to do God's work. (This is what the parable in Matthew 20:8-16 is about, I believe)

I just lightly skimmed this topic and it is very deep....I hope I didn't confuse more than clarify but there is a reason the "elect" are the elect and a reason they are called and chosen while others are blinded.

.........Whirlwind

May I ask why you believe the 144,000 are the ones that preach?

.....Whirlwind

Yes you may.

But I do not believe that these 144,000 will be a bunch of "Jewish Billy Graham's" evangelizing the world becuase the Church is gone. This is an a priori conclusion of Pretribulational Rapturism to provide a way for the Church to be absent following the Sixth Seal. (Even though it fails to provide a witness during the first six seals).

Yet there is no Scriptural evidence that these 144,000 sealed do any preaching at all!

I'm not saying that they aren't Witnesses for Him, but Scripture does not say they are evangelizing anybody.

They are described as "bond-servants" (doulous tou theou - slaves of God; not diakanous tou theou - servants of God).

But not as evangelists...

It says they are sealed to protect them from the coming wrath of God (really putting a hamper on those who posit that the entire seven years is the wrath of god). Because the Church is already sealed I believe these 144,000 are not members of the Church, though my theology is not so limited that I can't see God having both here at the same time.

So I do believe that they are physical Israelites, but because of the uniqueness of the 12 tribes, I am not dogmatic and could be convinced there is some symbolism involved.

For me, I would really like to know why He chose these 12 tribes...

I'm sorry it took so long to answer you.....thank you for your reply.

I agree with you...the 144,000 are sealed but nowhere does it state that they teach. My understanding is that before the end can come those 144,000 must be sealed to the truth before the advent of Christ:

Revelation 7:3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

I will tell you what I believe it is about....you may or may not agree with me.

It has to do with God's elect. There are 7,000 "very elect" and 144,000 elect. The 144,000 of the tribes are the elect, those God has chosen.

At the end of days they will, as most of the world, follow Satan believing he is our Christ. But, they must and will be sealed - know the truth - before the true Christ arrives, before it is too late! How does that happen and who does it?

The "very" elect - the 7,000:

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

The number seven, as I'm sure you know, means spiritual completeness, so the 7,000 could be a literal 7,000 or be whatever number God thinks is the perfect number. They are the ones that witness in the end of days. When Christ was asked by His disciples to tell them about those last days, He said:

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10.And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11.But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

That is when the "unpardonable sin" can be committed:

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

11.And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12.For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."

So...some or all of the 7,000 are delivered before Satan or his workers and the Holy Spirit will speak through them and what is said will open the eyes and ears of the 144,000 and many others. As Luke said, when this "delivering up" is happening:

Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

18.But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Now, when we plant seeds with others, it may not seem to be very effective but when the Holy Spirit speaks many of those seeds of truth will sprout and souls will know the true Christ.

I hate to make a long story any longer....but I will.

The 7,000 never "bowed a knee to Baal"....they knew the truth and never mistakenly worshipped Satan. (for some reason I'm writing in past tense???) They are the ones that allowed the Holy Spirit to speak through them. The 144,000 did follow Satan but had their eyes opened before Christ came, before it was too late. They will pay a price for that but they will still be part of the first resurrection. All others, the spiritually dead, will be taught during the millennium and must be tested at it's end before they are either given eternal life or the lake of fire!

All of the elect, the 144,000 and the 7,000 were "chosen before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) and that is another story in itself! Therein may lay the answer to your original question about the tribes! They are the physical Israelites but that raises the question of where those tribes are now. Remember, I am of the "camp" that believes only the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi are properly called Jews. The others are the house of Israel (not the nation of Israel).....where are they today?

.....Whirlwind

Hi Kari...I questioned my friend and the following was his answer, or part of his answer. I hope it will be of interest to you:

11 Chronicles 34:6 And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about.

(my question to him) - The question is if the northern tribes are scattered what was that scripture in reference to. The questioner believes it shows that the tribes had melded. My answer was 11 Kings 17:24....other men were placed in those cities.

(his answer ) - "Well....first of all....there is no question that the ten northern tribes were removed. There are a multitude of verses that show that to be the case. In addition....there are no specific verses that speak of their return from the Assyrian captivity. Your selection of [iI Kings 17:24] does indeed prove that the King of Assyria brought folks in from Babylon to re inhabit Samaria deserted by the exile of the Israelites. They are still living there in the first century and Simon Magus [Acts 8] is one of their descendants!

The mention of the cities in the tribal areas of Manasseh, Ephraim, Simeon and Naphtali is to show that the entire area of Israel was being cleansed. It does not mean that these cities still remained standing. This is transpiring about eight years into Josiah's reign (verse 3 of II Chronicles 34) and Josiah became King in 640 B.C., so it is almost a hundred years after the Assyrian exile took place in 722 B.C.

The word Mattocks can also be translated as "Ruins" as you can see here on the right hand side where different translations indeed refer to them just that way.

The map shows Naphtali in the extreme north of Israel and Simeon in the extreme south. Manasseh, being split, covered the east as well as the west. Ephraim, being the leading tribe of Israel and in the center symbolized completeness of the cleansing by Josiah. He was so determined to wipe away the remnants of paganism and idolatry he even burned the bones of the priests on their alters (verse 5). Remember our study from [i Kings 13:1-2 about the Man of God? This is the result of that prophecy.

When the King of Assyria took the Israelites....he took them all [iI Kings 17:18] leaving only Judah which at that time was composed of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi [i Kings 12:22-23]. Benjamin was the tribe spoken of in [i Kings 11:13] and the Levites left Israel because of what happened in [i Kings 12:31-32]. [iI Chronicles 11:13-17] tells of the priests leaving Israel and coming to Judah, joining their brothers, the Benjamites....and eventually becoming known as Jews also.

If someone is telling you that this verse [iI Chronicles 34;6] proves that the Northern Kingdom of Israel still inhabited this area during the reign of Josiah...they just do not have a good grasp of biblical history. [iI Kings 17:23] itself, written after the return of Judah from Babylon 200 years later......says "They (The Ten Tribes) are still there....in Assyria"!

I'm kind of running short on time this evening....so I'll get back to you on Anna, the prophetess of [Luke 2:36]. I'm pingin' Doug cause he likes history and also Chuck cause I see he is active again on this thread. It's been an interesting thread....hasn't it?"

That was his reply on one of the topics. If you have any questions about it I would be glad to relay them....I'll let you know about Anna too. Perhaps she was just one of the few that remained with Judah???

.........Whirlwind

Then shall two be in the field and one taken not 7yrs b4 the 2nd coming

That is the gathering of Israel for judgment, not the Church. Jesus doesn't reveal the rapture of the Church, this is a key error so many people make. All the references in the gospels with the exception of John 14:1-4 (which is general, not specific) are concerning the Second Advent. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, reveals the catching awy of the Church, the mystery not revealed in the OT or Gospels.

There is no revealing of any such thing. All are judged at the same time.....when Christ comes at His 2nd Advent. Where did you read the church was judged separately? Those that are "taken" first in that scripture are those that are taken by anti-christ. They fall for his lies. Christ wants us to be left and working for Him in the fields (the world.)

Do you truly believe that when the apostles asked Him about the end of days (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that He would say He foretold them all things and yet left that little rapture detail out? Not only left it out but told them what was expected of them up until the time He came to "judge and make war."

Ancient....it didn't happen. Paul didn't reveal any "rapture" mystery. There is NO catching away of the church. We, if we live in that time, we will all be here and better listen to what He told us we would be doing. If not.....we will fall for the deception of Satan and then......wailing and gnashing of teeth when we realize what has happened (at His 2nd. Advent).

I'm "from the camp" of those that believe the 10 northern tribes or, house of Israel, are not Jews.

There are many mysteries, legends, and traditions as to what happened to the 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom. The truth is that the tribes were never lost. Most of the people of the Northern Kingdom were deported to ancient Assyria (2 Kings 17:6). Many of those who remained in the land re-united with Judah in the south (2 Chronicles 34:6-9). Assyria was then conquered by Babylon, who then went on to conquer and deport the two remaining tribes of the Southern Kingdom, Judah and Benjamin (2 Kings 25:21). When King Cyrus allows the Israelites to return to Israel (Ezra chapter 1), many from the northern ten tribes and southern two tribes returned to Israel. In the New Testament, the prophetess Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher (one of the 10 supposed lost tribes). In Jesus

I don't know how many times I have heard this about the preaching off the 144,000. Scores of times to be sure. When I examine the Bible, I find the following verses pertaining to the 140,000:

Shalom Whirlwind and thanx for replying.

I am very interested in this list and was hoping for more responses.

Maybe I should open a new topic ... ?

thanx again -- shlomo ben david

If you do open it again, or someone responds, I hope I won't miss it....it is interesting.

May I ask why you believe the 144,000 are the ones that preach?

.....Whirlwind

Sure . . . just ignore the missles that keep getting fired into your land. . . .

Exactly! No matter what they do the missles keep coming.

.......Whirlwind

To Whom is the reward of Eternal life regarding the "Right" understanding of God's Words? Upon Whom is our confidence for eternal life to rest? From whom do we get this Knowledge for for substantiaion of personal confidence for everlasting life? Where does God tell us His faith shouold flow from? Does He not say, "Faith comes by the hearing and hearing via His words?"

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject. I agree with what you stated but a question arises; when you say, or when He said, "Faith comes by the hearing and hearing via His words?" How, or why....do such different faiths come from the same words?

Most of us believe in Christ and most of us believe in a life after this but so many differ on the trip there. We read the same passages and see a different lesson contained in them.

Perhaps there is no absolute right or wrong.....or perhaps there is.

Some of the differing scriptures I don't believe will affect anyone's salvation but others will. I see the rapture doctrine as one that will. My reasoning is that if church goers - those that don't truly study but accept the teachings of their pastors (who may or may not be false teachers) believe that they will be flown away then they are not prepared for the end of days.....they won't know that the anti-christ comes first, pretending to be our Saviour....They will follow him and in doing so will take the mark of the beast! They will believe his lies.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We know he is coming, we know he is coming before the Advent of Christ and we should be prepared for his deceit. So....my question is, are those that are being taught rapture also being taught that, just in case there is no rapture?

........Whirlwind

Do you believe it would take God seven years to bring His wrath down? Please be more explicit in your scriptural references. Where in Rev. 6 is your point made?

the wrath of God is revealed from Revelation 6 onward

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?searc...&spanend=73

He arrives AFTER the tribulation

At the Second Advent. The church meets the Lord in the air, and is judged for rewards in heaven. Israel is judged on earth, as described in the OT prophets.

Everyone is judged on earth. He comes here to judge and make war. The judgment is here! Where did you read anyone is judged for rewards in heaven?

........Whirlwind

'The Ancient Words'

1 Thess.4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethern, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope

He then goes on to tell us why we shouldn't sorrow, that "the dead in Christ rise first"....they are already with Him.

The dead in Christ are with Him is spirit, but they have not received their resurrection (physical) bodies yet, that happens at the translation (the rapture)

How do you know that? You could be right but where is it written? Is it not just as possible that they have received those bodies and when Christ arrives, at His 2nd Advent, then those that were living at that time will "change" into theirs? Or, that all will receive them at the 2nd. Advent?

When He returns, at His 2nd Advent then we who were still living are all changed into our spirit bodies.

We will have a physical body, like Jesus had when He was on earth.

Perhaps they are the same thing.

Meeting Him in the "air" is found in Strong's:

Air #109 (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by anal. to blow): "air" ( as naturally circumambient): - air

Air in this context means atmosphere, in the clouds, above the earth, it even says "in the clouds"

No, it doesn't. Air, as used in THAT scripture is #109, shown above....breath, not atmosphere.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The very same terminology is used in Revelation 4: the voice like a trumpet call, the instant translation

That is the 7th trump, when Christ arrives. It is not at all like Rev. 4., at least to me.

.......Whirlwind

The mystery he writes of is not rapture

Yes, it is

it is that "we shall not all sleep."

The Resurrection as no mystery, Christ spoke about it. Instantaneous translaton was not the mystery, that happened to Enoch and Elijah. No, the mystery was and is the secret translation of the Church, and the timing of it!

We will all be changed At The Last Trump

"The trumpet will sound". The very same trumpet call is announced in Revelation 4. The translation of the Church has aboslutely nothing to do with the trumpet judgments which unleash God's fury on the earth.

He told us ALL things and never did He mention anything like a rapture. Rather, He went on at great length in Matthew, Mark and Luke about what is expected of us in the end of days.....it is not to fly away.

Which is why Paul declares it a mystery! And you always have to keep the audience in mind: the audience of Jesus was Israel, Christ came to the "lost sheep of Israel", Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles".

Sure the change of bodies is the "mystery." It may have happened to Elijah and Enoch but no one else thought it would happen to them. Paul is telling them the mystery and that is what he is explaining. If rapture was the mystery it was still a mystery when he finished speaking.

The trumpet in Rev.4 has nothing to do with the 7 trumpets of end times. John writes that, "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet." That is very different than the "angels sounding" and great stars falling, etc.

As far as the mystery being so mysterious that Christ didn't tell anyone, to me, would make Christ a liar. He said, "I have foretold you all things" and prefaced that with "Take heed." So....be careful, believe in a rapture if you wish but my sincere belief is that it is part of the deception of end times. And it will cause many to be taken!

........Whirlwind

The scripture you quoted from 1 Thessalonians is what some take the rapture idea from. However, the subject of the chapter is about where the dead are, not that Christ is coming to take anyone away.

The word "air," as in "will meet you in the air," isn't the atmosphere but is instead "breath," as in breath of life - your spirit.

Basis? I've never heard this before, anywhere.

So, He tells those that didn't understand his first letter that Christ will NOT return until after the apostasy.

He's referring to the Day of the Lord, the Second Advent. Then he goes on to describe what must occur before the antichrist is revealed.

I'm not certain if your question is about the subject of the chapter or the "air" so I'll answer both. The subject of the chapter is picked up in:

1 Thess.4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethern, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope

He then goes on to tell us why we shouldn't sorrow, that "the dead in Christ rise first"....they are already with Him. When He returns, at His 2nd Advent then we who were still living are all changed into our spirit bodies.

Meeting Him in the "air" is found in Strong's:

Air #109 (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by anal. to blow): "air" ( as naturally circumambient): - air

It isn't the atmosphere, as many believe but is our breath, our soul:

Genesis 2:7 and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul.

Your next question....returning after the apostasy:

Yes, He is referring to the Day of the Lord, the Second Advent....and that won't happen until AFTER the antichrist/Satan and his tribulation which will cause the apostasy.

...........Whirlwind

Why do you believe the rapture is a mystery that was revealed by Paul?

Because he states that in I Corinthians 15

Thank you for your reply The Ancient Words:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52.In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul didn't write, "Behold, I shew you a mystery....Christ is coming back to fly the church away." The mystery he writes of is not rapture...it is that "we shall not all sleep." We will all be changed At The Last Trump and that is the 7th trump....when Christ arrives at His 2nd. Advent. No where does it tell us He comes before that and He Himself told us:

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

He told us ALL things and never did He mention anything like a rapture. Rather, He went on at great length in Matthew, Mark and Luke about what is expected of us in the end of days.....it is not to fly away.

If you wish to believe in a rapture please understand that Satan comes before Christ and if you mistakenly follow him, believing he is our Saviour....then you have taken the mark of the beast!

Remember, Jesus told us he would be very, very good at what he does so be careful my friend in Christ.....Don't be taken.

.........Whirlwind

The point is the entire seven years represents the wrath of God, whihc is stated as early as Revelation 6. The phrase "Tribulation of Satan" is a an extra-Biblical construct.

Do you believe it would take God seven years to bring His wrath down? Please be more explicit in your scriptural references. Where in Rev. 6 is your point made?

I disagree in that the "tribulation of Satan is an extra-Biblical construct."

Mark 13:24 but in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Those days are the end of days and Christ is telling us there will be a tribulation and what will happen AFTER it.

25.And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken,

26.And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

He arrives AFTER the tribulation. When He arrives it is to "judge and make war." If you believe that the seven years is the wrath of Christ....where does Satan come into the picture? Why does Christ tell us he comes "after that tribulation?" What does "that tribulation" mean to you?

11 Thess.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of peridtion.

Why does Paul tell us that the son of perdition will cause people to fall away BEFORE Christ arrives?

...........Whirlwind

It us true that no one knows the time nor the date, the Lord said so himself. but we must understand that He is talking about the rapture.

Christ does not specifically reference the rapture anywhere in the Gospels, bear in mind He came to the "lost sheep of Israel": His primay audience. The mystery of the Rapture is revealed to the Church by paul (another reason it cannot be the same as the Second Advent).

Why do you believe the rapture is a mystery that was revealed by Paul? I agree that Christ was "sent to the lost sheep of Israel" but I don't understand the connection to rapture with that???

If there is no rapture of the Church, and one has a worldly viepoint, you may as well just live it up and then go into the time of extreme testing to get your spiritual act together, and the injunction of Christ above to "pray always" is meaningless, we won't escape anything!

My understanding is that we don't "pray always" in order to escape but pray to be strong enough in His Word to go through it. Is that not why we study and "put the gospel armor" on?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, "sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

How would He know if we would or would not "take the mark of the beast" unless we were here to be tested?

.........Whirlwind

He is teaching about the end of days, the tribulation of Satan and tells us that He will shorten the days.

?

Can Satan do anything at all without God allowing it?

Interesting question. I'm trying to apply your question to what I posted and may not understand what you are getting at.

I believe your answer would be no....God allows him to do what he will.

As to why He shortened the days (if that is your meaning) it is not a question of allowing Satan to do what he will but that he will be so very good at his deception that God's elect may be tempted to believe him.

...........Whirlwind

Hmmmm. Where's the 'No Rapture' option?

That is what I was looking for. I guess it would be post-trib, as then it would be the same thing as His 2nd Advent.....when all are changed!

I also love .... GRANDKIDS....aren't they the most terrific inventions ever???

.......Whirlwind