AmariYah

Very insightful post Steff! I for one think that these are very very important questions to ask. I also think that it is a great travesty of justice that; #1 the real source of the problems like those witnessed at Abu Ghraib have not been dealt with. Everything works from the top down, therefore Rumsfeld should be held accountable and prosecuted for his war crimes. But instead they find a couple of patsies to be the scape goats. #2 the very White House lawyer who argued against the Constitution in the Abu Ghraib case has now been promoted to a high public office. Why is it that these people who have horrible double standards and who have failed miserably in upholding their oaths of office and civil rights- rather than being prosecuted and held accountable are promoted instead. Have we really descended to such a depth where good is evil and evil is good here in America?

Folks, don't get upset- the prince of darkness is about to do his thing- just go with the flow... That my friend is crazy talk- sounds a little new agey to me as well. The Word of God does say "fear not" but it does not advise us to 'go with the flow'! We are to submit to God and RESIST THE DEVIL! Believe me guys and gals, if you fail to take a stand in resisting the evil one- In other words if you fail to speak up about the inustices of the workers of darkness, while boldly confessing the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will become "a part of it" by default. In other words if you do not oppose unrighteous policies, proceedures and yes even leaders, then you become complicit in their schemes and plans, even if you do nothing to support them. Why, because you also did nothing to stop or oppose them! Again I say, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you" That is the unshakeable word of God! (Now, I also admit that the time may come when the wisdom from God's Spirit is to essentially hide out, and continue to resist through prayer behind the scenes. But the resistance remains consistant throughout.) IMHO

Honestly- I am shocked that these kind of "free thinking" opinions and unconventional insights are even being tolerated here at Worhty? In fact these blashphemous ideas and questions are bordering very close to "Conspiracy theories"... I thought that this kind of thinking was strictly forbidden here-?Someone should quickly censor this guy... (Oh- that's right he is an elected official in the US House of Representatives.) Well at least censor and shut down this awful thread! Seriously how is this kind of far fetched opinion edifying the Body of Christ? George W. is such a good kind hearted man and this sort of nonsense does not put his administration in a very good light now does it? (p.s. You are no fool- Thanks for sharing this speech Steff! I think that Rep. Ron Paul purposefully presented those question not to be vauge but in hope that some American patriots would take a moment to think and perhaps even answer some of these questions, rather than just buying into the insane War mongering, Nation building, International police force... These policies are already bankrupting our once great country!)

Actually sojc is quite right! Not that any of you would ever acknowledge it- it is overwhelmingly clear that here at worthy when you disagree with someone's point of view, that is not only accpetable but is in fact preferable to tear down, ridicule and attack the messenger rather than addressing the important points. I've seen it here time and time again- Try to denigrate and belittle a brother or sister when you cannot find any better response! Thank you for your deep wisdom, Sojc; I teach in the Philosophy Department. Perhaps some of us who have been here for a long while, have over time simply become aware that Steff does not pay heed to facts or reason, but simply pours the same ludicrous drivel forth no matter the occasion. And just because you teach philosophy- you feel justified in slamming Steff because he thinks outside of the narrow little box that many here accept as fact. Does it make you feel more self righteous and edified to reduce a brother to a bumbling fool in your mind?? Well that is a form of psychology all right- unfortunately it is the form of psychology which has no compassion or kindness. As the book of Proverbs puts it (and here's a "contradition" in the Bible if you're looking for one!): "ANSWER NOT a fool according to his own folly, lest you be like him. ANSWER a fool according to his own folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. A yoke for an ox, a bridle for an ass, but a rod for a fool's back." All I will say is that Steff is no fool- He simply refuses to embrace the commonly accepted spin and continual stream of lies coming from the Bush White House. And since that makes you mad and threatens your puny world view, you resort to calling him names in a feeble attempt to make your point. Question: Exactly how does showing the character and love of Christ fit into a cold biased reply like this? <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why this thread has not been censored and retired for being so contrary to poular Ospinion is beyond me- Whether I agree with Steff of not- and I'm not saying that I do... nor am I saying that I do not- His attacks on Pres. Bush and his presentation of a point of view that goes cross-ways of the generally accepted spin should be considered not only blasphenmous but most defintely conspiratorial- Gag him, I say! And the model of Christian love and compassion shown in the posts of a certain yod-man should be an inspiration to us all to turn our eyes and hearts to Jesust. I think that we should all aspire to the exalted level of yod's harsh, cynical sarcasm- because that is surely what will win souls for God's kingdom here at Worthy! (Sorry- just making a point using reverse psychology! )

Wow, it just occured to me while I was reviewing this thread that the whole teaching and revelation of edifiying and lifting up others with positive and encouraging words/ as opposed to putting them down and disrespecting them~ This really embodies exactly what the church is suppose to be like *

May I just say that in the heat of discussion and debate it is easy to forget some of the mandates of scripture. I must first preface this thread with an apology; Please forgive me if I have come across as mean spirited, angry or rude! If I have offended anyone with my stubborness or opinionated approach I am sorry! Looking at god's word I am reminded that although I do enjoy a good political debate as well as discussing other controversial topics... it is imperitive that we do nevertheless treat each other with kindness and respect especially when and if we have disagreements. Otherwise what kind of example are we to those who are unsaved? Now I would like to share this little tid-bit from the Bible and say that I myself will try to remember this always while discussing and debating here at Worthy! " So then let us be always seeking the ways which lead to peace and the ways in which we can support one another" Romans 14:19 "So give encouragement to each other, and keep strengthening one another, as you do already." 1 Thessalonians 5:11 We are to literally seek out the paths of peace and the ways in which we can support and edify each other, not simply wait and see if an opportunity presents itself. Our words can bring life and peace to others and if we share kind words with others it does indeed strengthen them and lift them up. Ephesians 4:13-16 makes it perfectly clear exactly what the function and purpose of the church body and especially the leadership should be; we are supposed to equip the saints, edify the body of Christ speaking the truth in love so that we can all grow up into Him who is the head of the church. We are to love one another by building each other up. It is much more common to see people, even people in the church, criticizing others and tearing people down rather than building them up, why? Too many people never received up-building and encouragement in their lives so they are deficient and in a sense 'running on empty'. As a result of this even if they have something to give they simply don't know how because they have never had a good example in their personal lives. However as believers we do have the perfect example in Jesus Christ our Messiah who encourages us to be confidant and 'fear not' and to be 'made whole' not remain broken and fragmented. Make a decision today that you will endeavor to become the kind of person who is an encourager, one who speaks words designed to edify and strengthen your fellowmen. Do not allow yourself to speak cutting words, nor to doubt and condemn others without even getting to know them, but speak powerful words of life and peace to others while recognizing how much grace and compassion you can initiate by speaking with careful purpose. "Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing

This topic is not a laughing matter! And when Pres. Bush shows his support for this agenda I wonder if any of his "worshippers" uhh I mean supporters will then begin to see that G.W. Bush is not a representative of either the People of this once great country or of the Lord Jesus Christ and His word?

for some reason people think that by joking about our governments support of terrorists and terrosits regeims that it isn't important! Mocking your brother and sisters in Christ does not let the Federal Govt. off the hook for their many hypocrisies- it merely shows that you do not even respect your fellowman much less actually do as the Lord commands- "Love one another"! Even till this very day we have our leaders speaking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand we are waging a "war against terrorism". On the other hand we are funding and supporting countires and governments who support and harbor terrorists. On the one hand our government pretends that we are promoting Liberty and freedom and democracy yet on the other the Federal Govt. is taking away the rights and liberties of the American people through many and various means. On the one hand the Govt. claims to be for that which is "good" such as integrity, honesty and righteousness, yet in reality The federal government is continually lying about their real agendas- doing under-handed and unfair business deals and allowing the proliferation of all forms of immorality in our contry. and yet... So many of you don't seem to care about the facts about sweetheart deals like Halliburton and Enron and the likes! Don't seem to care about the facts concerning the legalized looting of Iraq by American companies. Don't seem to care about the wholesale destruction of our natural resources and the our-sourcing of high tech American jobs. Even with all these and many other facts Christians seem to believe that the Bush Admin and the Federal Govt. are good honest Christian people, even blessed and favored by God???? What utter and complete hypocrisy!!! Why do you think that people around the world look upon America as the Great Satan and Americans as evil? Primarily because of our very low moral standards- we allow prostitution/ pornography/ abortion etc... To the average religious individual from other countries whether they are Hindu/Bhuddist or Muslim they see us as very immoral and therefore they view us as infidels. They also see the double speak and the forked tounges of the American Government and simply do not believe that we are able to tell the truth. But for some reason the "religious right" of America is blinded to our own hyocrisy and are not willing to admit the very very dark side to the present American politics and foreign policy. If you are a Christain and you are mocking your brothers and sister here for simply asking that certian important questions be answered- then you really need to repent and ask why you are not willing to admit the very dark under-belly of the Bush Administration? (This is not a pull for Kerry either!)

As far as the Skull and Bones society goes- it is not something simply in Pres. Bush's past! He is an active member now and has publicly admitted as much as well as publically admitting that he is honoered to be a member of said group. The fact is that some people in the history of Skull and Bones have at various times divulged some of their secrets- and it most certainly is a Satanic organization. But I know that for many of the Sunday "Christians" here for whom Christianity is merely a religion and not a life-style- they simply don't see any problem for a "good Christian" to be an active member of a clearly Satanic organization. For a long time I just could'nt fathom how so many professing "Christians" could possible like or support G.W. Bush? Finally I realized that perhaps they were the same kind of "Christian" that Pres. Bush is. Just like a religion thing not a living active daily relationship with Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Otherwise, most assuredly the Holy Spirit would certainly raise quite a few red flags when these "good Christians" are lying, cheating and planning to murder and defraud hundreds of thousands of good people. does that mean that these good Sunday Christians are not born again? Well I certainly do not have the insight or authority to determine that! But in terms of day to day living- "Ye shall know them by their fruit" Someone who lies and deceives and makes plans to defraud and murder thousands of people is not living as the Bible commands. someone who lives and acts this way does not value the Christian values and standards very highly. And anyone who would continue in a Satanic secret society also does not value the things of God very highly either!

I like your response Adstar! FUNNY! There is a great difference between some general "conspiracy theories" and specific verifiable information which many frightened people would like to lump into the category of crazy far fetched "conspiracy theories". For example there are several well known and easily verifiable facts which clearly show that The United States of America is under occupation from a foreign corporate entity. But many of those hanging out here at "Worthy-Boards" simply put their noses in the air and make fun of these things writing them off as "conspiracy theories" simply so that they don't have to face the reality of certain facts! Does anyone else find it strange that the Federal Reserve and it's enforcement arm the dreaded I.R.S. are not part of the U.S. Government- but are private corporations? Did you know that since about 1933 the federal Government is using you and your children and your childrens children as surety? Only by borrowing on your assets and your future assets can the government continue to print money which is not backed by anything of real value such as gold and silver as it was in the past? Aren't you just a little disturbed that "We The People" buy U.S. dollars from the Federal Reserve at face value even when they only cost pennies to print? And then "We The People" also become responsible for the "debt" incurred by printing more and more of the worthless dollars! Did you know that when your income taxes are collected by the I.R.S. they do not go to the United States Treasury as required by law but to the Federal Reserve? Who controls the Federal Reserve? Where do these hard earned dollars really go once they have been surrendured to the Federal Reserve? Doesn't anyone else find it a little strange that the Secretary of Treasury does not even work for the U.S. Government, but receives his pay check from the I.M.F.? (The International Monetary Fund) These are not merely some wacky conspiracy theories at all but undisclosed facts which begin to uncover a very evil and demonically inspired attack against the Sovereign Nation of the United States of America, and against the Constitution of the U.S.A. (A little research will verify that the above facts are indeed true!) Another sad but equally true fact is polititians like G.W. Bush and John Kerry are complicit in this usurption of our sovereignty and power as a country and a Nation! But you can go hide your head in the sand and laugh and mock these things dismissing them as wacky conspiracy theories but the wake up call is coming soon! Very soon! Everything which is hidden in the dark will be revealed! ALL GLORY AND HONOR AND POWER BE UNTO THE LAMB WHO SITS UPON THE THRONE! HALLELUJAH!

A big AMEN! To Rep. Ron Paul. This is just uncovering some more of the hidden agenda of the present Federal Government. It is clear that these international bankers do not have our best interests at heart. They have already stolen all of the assets of this once great Nation- now they are in the process of stripping us of all of our rights and ultimately our freedom. I thank God for people like Ron Paul. Thanks for sharing this Steff!

And finally... AirForceStanddown The attack at the Pentagon took place in one of the most heavily guarded air spaces in the world. The notion that Flight77 could fly into Washington and carry out the PentagonAttack unopposed, almost an hour after the first plane struck the World Trade Center, at a time when the FAA and NORAD know that more than 2 planes have been hijacked, is absurd. Of all the flights of 9/11, Flight 77 was the easiest to detect, the easiest to intercept, and given its supposed target, the most obvious to be intercepted. Andrews Air Force base, ten miles from the Pentagon is home to two 'combat-ready' squadrons: the 121st Fighter Squadron (FS-121) of the 113th Fighter Wing (FW-113), equipped with F-16 fighters; the 321st Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA-321) of the 49th Marine Air Group, Detachment A (MAG-49 Det-A), equipped F/A-18 fighters. CBS (Cached) F-15s can travel at speeds of 1875 mph while F-16s can travel at 1500 mph. FAS There is evidence of a cover up. The mission statement for the DC Air National Guard (DCANG) at Andrews used to read: 202 "DCANG MISSION: To provide combat units in the highest possible state of readiness." On September 13th 2001 this Mission Statement was pulled, and a blander non-sequitur that mentions neither combat nor readiness. The base becomes, according to the website, home to a transport squadron only. There is evidence that fighters accompanied at least one of the 9/11 flights: The Nashua controllers have learned through discussions with other controllers that an F-16 fighter stayed in hot pursuit of another hijacked commercial airliner until it crashed in Pennsylvania, the employee said. Although controllers don't have complete details of the Air Force's chase of the Boeing 757, they have learned the F-16 made 360-degree turns to remain close to the commercial jet, the employee said. APFN Portland News "Allah blinds the heathens' radar" scenario: There are 4 active military radar sites within range of Washington. There is evidence that at least some parts of the Air Force was told to stand down. No hijacker in history has turned off a transponder: The transponder broadacasts the plane's altitude and location. The transponder is used by pilots to signal a hijacking. Without the transponder, the aircraft does not show up on some smaller civilian radar, but still shows up on active military radar. http://911review.org/Wiki/AirForceStanddown.shtml

Just a couple more links for the skeptics and hard-headed among us; http://www.rense.com/general18/atcd.htm http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/cah911TL.htm http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-1.html http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-2.htm http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-3.htm

NORAD Stand-Down The Prevention of Interceptions of the Commandeered Planes It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, fighters were scrambled 67 times. 1 There are several elements involved in domestic air defense. The air traffic control system continuously monitors air traffic and notifies NORAD of any deviations of any aircraft from their flight-paths or loss of radio contact. NORAD monitors air and space traffic continuously and is prepared to react immediately to threats and emergencies. It has the authority to order units from the Air National Guard, the Air Force, or other armed services to scramble fighters in pursuit of jetliners in trouble. Routine interception procedures were not followed on September 11th, 2001. This can be seen clearly by comparing incidents. A Case for Comparison An example of how the air defense network normally responds to domestic emergencies is illustrated by the well-reported 1999 case of Payne Stewart's Lear jet. When the golfer's jet failed to respond to air traffic controller communications, F-16 interceptors were quickly dispatched. According to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to Payne's stricken Learjet starting about 20 minutes after contact with his plane was lost. 2 This contrasts with the long periods of time apparently hijacked planes roamed the skies of the Northeast on September 11th without any interceptions. 83 minutes elapsed between the time that Flight 11 veered off course and the Pentagon was hit, and 112 minutes elapsed between the time that contact was lost with Flight 11 and Flight 93 crashed. According to the official story, not a single fighter was scrambled in time to intercept any of the four jetliners. At least 28 air stations were easily within distance to protect New York City and Washington DC. 3 None of them did. Note that, if anything, intercept times for the four jetliners should have been far shorter than for Payne Stewart's jet: Stewart's jet merely failed to respond to communications. Each of the four jetliners, in addition to going silent, veered dramatically off course and switched off their transponders. Stewart's jet went off course in the South, which has fewer air defense stations than the NorthEast corridor. Air traffic controllers more carefully monitor large passenger aircraft in crowded air corridors than small private aircraft. Stewart's jet went off-course at 45,000 feet, 10,000 feet higher than jetliners fly. After the first hijacking, the air traffic controllers, the FAA, and NORAD should have been prepared to respond immediately to subsequent off-course aircraft. Layered Failures The air defense network had, on September 11th, predictable and effective procedures for dealing with just such an attack. Yet it failed to respond in a timely manner until after the attack was over, more than an hour and a half after it had started. The official timeline describes a series of events and mode of response in which the delays are spread out into a number of areas. There are failures upon failures, in what might be described as a strategy of layered failures, or failure in depth. The failures can be divided into four types. Failures to report: Based on the official timeline, the FAA response times for reporting the deviating aircraft were many times longer than the prescribed times. Failures to scramble: NORAD, once notified of the off-course aircraft, failed to scramble jets from the nearest bases. Failures to intercept: Once airborne, interceptors failed to reach their targets because they flew at small fractions of their top speeds. Failures to redeploy: Fighters that were airborne and within interception range of the deviating aircraft were not redeployed to pursue them. Had not there been multiple failures of each type, one or more parts of the attack could have been thwarted. NORAD had time to protect the World Trade Center even given the unbelievably late time, 8:40, when it claims to have first been notified. It had time to protect the South Tower and Washington even given its bizarre choice of bases to scramble. And it still had ample opportunity to protect both New York City and Washington even if it insisted that all interceptors fly subsonic, simply by redeploying airborne fighters. Failures to Report Comparing NORAD's timeline to reports from air traffic control reveals inexplicable delays in the times the FAA took to report deviating aircraft. The delays include an 18-minute delay in reporting Flight 11 and a 39-minute delay in reporting Flight 77. The delays are made all the more suspicious given that, in each case, the plane failed to respond to communications, was off-course, and had stopped emitting its IFF signal. Failures to Scramble No plausible explanation has been provided for failing to scramble interceptors in a timely fashion from bases within easy range to protect the September 11th targets. Fighters that were dispatched were scrambled from distant bases. Early in the attack, when Flight 11 had turned directly south toward New York City, it was obvious that New York City and the World Trade Center, and Washington D.C. would be likely targets. Yet fighters were not scrambled from the bases near the targets. They were only scrambled from distant bases. Moreover there were no redundant or backup scrambles. New York City Flight 11 had been flying south toward New York City from about 8:30 AM. Yet no interceptors were scrambled from nearby Fort Dix or Laguardia, or from Langley, Virginia. Numerous other bases were not ordered to scramble fighters. Washington D.C. No interceptors were scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base to protect the capital, at least not before the Pentagon was hit. Andrews Air Force Base had two squadrons of fighters on alert, and is only 10 miles from the Pentagon. Failures to Intercept Even though the interceptors were not dispatched from the most logical bases, the ones that were scrambled still had adequate time to reach their assigned planes. Why didn't they? Because they were only flying at a small fraction of their top speed. That is the conclusion implicit in NORAD's timeline. Otis to the WTC The first base to finally scramble interceptors was Otis in Falmouth, Massachusetts, at 8:52, about a half-hour after Flight 11 was taken over. This was already eight minutes after Flight 11 hit the North Tower, and just 9 minutes before Flight 175 hit the South Tower. According to NORAD, at the time of the South Tower Impact the two F-15s from Otis were still 71 miles away. Otis is 153 miles east-northeast of the WTC. That means the F-15s were flying at: (153 miles - 71 miles)/(9:03 - 8:52) = 447 mph That is around 23.8% of their top speed of 1875 mph. At 9:11 the F-15s finally reached the World Trade Center. Their average speed for the trip was: 153/(9:11 - 8:52) = 483 mph That is around 25.8% of their top speed. Langley to the Pentagon The F-16s from Langley reached the Pentagon at 9:49. It took them 19 minutes to reach Washington D.C. from Langley AFB, which is about 130 miles to the south. That means the F-16s were flying at: 130 miles/(9:49 - 9:30) = 410.5 mph That is around 27.4% of their top speed of 1500 mph. Andrews to the Pentagon Andrews Air Force Base, located on the outskirts of the capital, is just over 10 miles from the Pentagon. One would have expected interceptors to be scrambled to protect the capital within a few minutes of the 8:15 loss of contact with Flight 11. Instead, no fighters from Andrews reached the Pentagon until 9:49, several minutes after the assault. Failures to Redeploy Fighters that were in the air when the attack started were not redeployed to intercept the deviating planes. When fighters scrambled to protect Manhattan arrived there too late, they were not redeployed to protect the capital even though they had plenty of time to reach it before the Pentagon was hit. Long Island to Manhattan Two F-15s flying off the coast of Long Island were not redeployed to Manhattan until after the second tower was hit. 4 WTC to the Pentagon By the time the two F-15s from Otis reached Manhattan, the only jetliner still flying with its IFF transponder off had just made a 180-degree turn over southern Ohio and had been headed for Washington D.C. for 12 minutes. It was still 34 minutes before the Pentagon was hit. Had the fighters been sent to protect the capital, they could have traveled the approximately 300 miles in: 300 miles/1875 mph = 9.6 minutes They even could have made it to the capital in time to protect the Pentagon if they had continued to fly at only 500 mph. http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/

NORAD 911 Stand Down Math for Dummies Is a short synopsis of: Stand Down Exposing NORAD's Wag The 911 Window Dressing Tale http://StandDown.net by Mark Elsis AP Article On NORAD PR: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/na...-jets0919.story NORAD Press Release: http://StandDown.net/NORADSeptember182001PressRelease.htm 8:13:31: American Airlines Flight 11 (AA11) last transmission with Boston Air Traffic Control (ATC). 8:13:32 to 8:20: AA11 goes off course and is hijacked. 8:20: AA 11 transponder signal stops. 8:36: NORAD spokesman, Major Mike Snyder, confirmed that the FAA notified NORAD of AA 11 hijacking. 8:38: Boston ATC notifies NORAD that AA11 has been hijacked. 8:39: AA11 flies directly over our # 1 terrorist target, Indian Point nuclear stations. 8:40: FAA notifies NORAD that AA11 has been hijacked. 8:43: FAA notifies NORAD that United Airlines Flight 175 (UA175) has been hijacked. 8:46:26: AA11 impacts the North Tower of the WTC between the 94th and 98th floors. 8:46: NORAD finally orders Otis to scramble two F-15's. NORAD has held on to this vital information for at least 6, 8 or 10 minutes, and probably up to 26 or 32 minutes. 8:52: Two F-15's from Otis are airborne. 9:02:54: UA175 impacts the South Tower of the WTC between the 78th and 84th floors. NORAD says the F-15's from Otis are still 71 miles away. This means their average flight speed was only 23.9% of their top speed in trying to intercept UA 175. Otis is 153 miles from WTC - F-15's have a top speed of 1875 MPH. Minus 71 miles from 153 miles = 82 miles covered in 11 minutes from 8:52 to 9:03 - 60 minutes divided by 11 minutes = 5.45 x 82 miles = 447.3 MPH divided by 1875 MPH = 23.9%. 9:30: Three F-16's from Langley are airborne. 9:37: American Airlines Flight 77 hits the Pentagon. NORAD says the F-16's from Langley were still 105 miles and 12 minutes away. 9:49: It takes the F-16's from Langley 19 minutes to reach Washington. This means their average flight speed was only 27.4% of their top speed in trying to protect our nations capital. Langley is 130 miles from the Pentagon - F-16's have a top speed of 1500 MPH - 60 minutes divided by 19 minutes = 3.16 x 130 miles = 410.5 MPH divided by 1500 MPH = 27.4%. Andrews Air Force Base has two fighter wings that are 10 miles from the Pentagon, yet they inconceivably waited till after all of the attacks were over to finally get airborne. The United States will spend more on the military in fiscal year 2003 (at least 396 billion) than the next 25 biggest countries combined. Also, the United States Air Force is by far and away the most technologically advanced and dominate military force ever known to man. So knowing all of these facts, what type of a preposterous wag the NORAD Reponse Times tale is this?

If anyone is truly interested the rest of standdown.net/ gives a minute by minute breakdown of the events that transpired on Sept. 11 2001.

Stand Down Exposing NORAD's Wag The 911 Window Dressing Tale by Mark R. Elsis, Lovearth.net, January 8, 2003 "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce and brave man, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain "Fear not the path of truth, for the lack of people walking on it." http://Robert FKennedy.net (StandDown.net is printable as is, 33 pages) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Breaking News Federal Lawsuit: Ellen Mariani (911 Widow) vs. Bush The "Summary of Facts" will set the foundation to support Plaintiff Counts as set forth herein. A complete highly researched timelines of "911" by American Citizen Mark R. Elsis ( http://911Timeline.net and http://StandDown.net ) who has agreed to testify to his research on behalf of Plaintiff, and believed to be one of the "most comprehensive minute by minute accounts of the events of "911". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9-11 Commission Subpoenas FAA and NORAD 911 Commission Subpoenas FAA http://StandDown.net/911commissionsubpoenasfaa.htm 911 Commission Subpoenas NORAD http://StandDown.net/911commissionsubpoenasnorad.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Planes That Flew Too Close To The White House Private Plane Flew Too Close To The White House http://StandDown.net/privateplaneflewtoocl...ewhitehouse.htm Cessna 182 Flew Too Close To The White House http://StandDown.net/cessna182flewtooclose...ewhitehouse.htm Frontier 737 Flew Too Close To The White House http://StandDown.net/frontier737flewtooclo...ewhitehouse.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stand Down is dedicated to Scott Shuger. Scott was known as the first Internet reporter. He was also the only mainstream or alternative media writer, besides myself, who had the courage to write about the elementary mathematical facts (that the two United States Air Force (USAF) F-15 fighters ordered to intercept United Airlines Flight 175 and the two or three USAF F-16 fighters ordered to intercept American Airlines Flight 77 were flying at only 25.8% and 27.4% of their top speed) of the NORAD Press Release of September 18, 2001. Scott's article is called IGNORAD The Military Screw-up Nobody Talks About. Scott Shuger died in a scuba diving accident June 15, 2002. IGNORAD The Military Screw-up Nobody Talks About by Scott Shugar http://AttackOnAmerica.net/IGNORAD.htm With a minute-by-minute chronology from 7:59 a.m. till 10:06:05 a.m., this article will dismantle the Wednesday September 18, 2001 North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) Press Release. This press release encompasses the (supposed) response times of the United States Air Force on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. This article will explain to you exactly what happened for the almost one hour and fifty-three minutes that elapsed between the time American Airlines Flight 11 lost voice contact with air traffic control and was hijacked at 8:13:31, till the time United Airlines Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania at 10:06:05. NORAD Press Release: http://StandDown.net/NORADSeptember182001PressRelease.htm AP Article On NORAD PR: http://www.AttackOnAmerica.net/8MinutesAway.htm Also, when reading this article, please keep in mind the following five very significant pieces of information. 1) The United States Government will spend more on the military in fiscal year 2003, than all the rest of the countries on Earth combined. Current expenditures are 437 billion and our past obligations are 339 billion, this equals 776 billion. Forty-six percent of our Taxes go to the Military Industrial Complex: http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm This figure doesn

I realized that even just this one extremely important topic concerning the events of 9/11/ are far too important to simply discuss in the midst of a basically unrelated thread. For more information visit the new thread in the War on Terrorism heading entitled; AMERICAN MILITARY ORDERED TO STAND DOWN ON 9/11/01

"We recognize it

PART 2 Lie # 2: Presidential Authorization Was Needed To Scramble Jets To Intercept Flight 77 On Sunday, September 16th, Vice-President Richard Cheney was interviewed on NBC TV's 'Meet the Press'. During that interview he created the impression that the military would have needed presidential authorization to scramble fighter jets to intercept American Airlines Flight 77 before it hit the Pentagon. Mr. Cheney did not present this lie in a straightforward manner. Instead he did two things. First, he avoided discussing the failure to intercept Flight 77. Instead he talked only about the choices Mr. Bush supposedly made after the Pentagon was hit. Second, he took it for granted that presidential approval was required to intercept a commercial jet, as if this were an accepted fact. Then based on this false foundation, he emitted a fog of emotional misinformation to confuse the millions of Americans who wanted to know: why didn't jet fighters scramble to intercept Flight 77 before it crashed into the Pentagon? Doesn't the U.S. have radar and an Air Force anymore? It is common for officials attempting to cover-up a capital crime to put the blame on a subordinate. However Mr. Cheney used a different approach on 'Meet the Press.' Relying on his skills in public deception, Cheney tried to create the impression that nothing improper had occurred, that faced with horrendous choices a brave President had done the right thing. But as soon as one sees through this verbiage, one realizes Mr. Cheney has actually placed the responsibility for the failure to intercept American Flight 77 on George W. Bush. Here is the relevant excerpt from 'Meet the Press': "Mr. Russert: What's the most important decision you think he made during the course of the day? "Vice Pres. Cheney: Well, the--I suppose the toughest decision was this question of whether or not we would intercept incoming commercial aircraft. "Mr. Russert: And you decided? "Vice Pres. Cheney: We decided to do it. We'd, in effect, put a flying combat air patrol up over the city; F-16s with an AWACS, which is an airborne radar system, and tanker support so they could stay up a long time... "It doesn't do any good to put up a combat air patrol if you don't give them instructions to act, if, in fact, they feel it's appropriate. "Mr. Russert: So if the United States government became aware that a hijacked commercial airline[r] was destined for the White House or the Capitol, we would take the plane down? "Vice Pres. Cheney: Yes. The president made the decision...that if the plane would not divert...as a last resort, our pilots were authorized to take them out. Now, people say, you know, that's a horrendous decision to make. Well, it is. You've got an airplane full of American citizens, civilians, captured by...terrorists, headed and are you going to, in fact, shoot it down, obviously, and kill all those Americans on board? "...It's a presidential-level decision, and the president made, I think, exactly the right call in this case, to say, "I wished we'd had combat air patrol up over New York." --NBC, 'Meet the Press' 16 September 2001 (1) Please continue article by following the link below. http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-2.htm

Enough of trying to hide from obvious publically available facts- by simply crying CONSPIRACY! And surely you can be more original Yod then to call me arrogant for pointing out the great arrogance of many of the posters in this thread. Here is a little more evidence for y'all- Though at this point I kinda doubt if any of you will actually read or consider it??? Andrews Air Force Base is a huge military installation just 10 miles from the Pentagon. On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C. They failed to do their job. Despite over one hour's advance warning of a terrorist attack in progress, not a single Andrews fighter took off (or scrambled) to protect the city. The FAA, NORAD and the military have cooperative procedures by which fighter jets intercept commercial aircraft under emergency conditions. These procedures were not followed. Air Force officials and others have tried to explain away the failures: "Air Force Lt. Col. Vic Warzinski, another Pentagon spokesman, [said]: 'The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way, and I doubt prior to Tuesday's event, anyone would have expected anything like that here.'" --'Newsday,' 23 September 2001 (1) Using information from the mass media and official Websites, we will show that this is a lie. Some of what happened on 9-11, such as planes flying into buildings, is unusual. But most of what happened, such as commercial jets flying off-course, transponder failures and possible hijackings, are everyday emergencies. We will show that these emergencies are routinely handled with expert efficiency based on clear rules. The crash of the first hijacked jet into the World Trade Center made it clear the United States was faced with an extraordinary situation. This should have intensified the emergency responses of the air safety and air defense systems. The whole country was aware. For example, at 9:06 AM the NY Police broadcast: " 'This was a terrorist attack. Notify the Pentagon.'" --'Daily News' (New York) 12 September 2001 (2) 'American Forces Press Service' reported that ordinary people working at the Pentagon worried they could be next: "'We were watching the World Trade Center on the television,' said a Navy officer. 'When the second plane deliberately dove into the tower, someone said, 'The World Trade Center is one of the most recognizable symbols of America. We're sitting in a close second.'" --'DEFENSELINK News', Sept. 13, 2001 (3) U.S. air safety and air defense emergency systems are activated in response to problems every day. On 9-11 they failed despite, not because of, the extreme nature of the emergency. This could only happen if individuals in high positions worked in a coordinated way to make them fail. Such operatives would almost surely have failed if they tried to disrupt and abort routine protection systems without top-level support. The failure of the emergency systems would be noticed immediately. Moreover, given the catastrophic nature of the attacks, the highest military authorities would be alerted. Acting on their own, the operatives could expect that their orders would be countermanded and that they themselves would be arrested. The sabotage of routine protective systems, controlled by strict hierarchies, would never have been contemplated let alone attempted absent the involvement of the supreme U.S. military command. This includes at least U.S. President George Bush, U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and the then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers. In the following summary of evidence we will demonstrate probable cause for charging the above-named persons with treason for complicity in the murders of thousands of people whom they had sworn to protect. The summary of evidence covers the following areas: * Andrews Air Force Base and the myth of 'no available planes;' * The air safety/air defense systems and the myth that they were not prepared; * The actions of George Bush on 9-11 that clearly violated his positive legal and constitutional obligations and demonstrated consciousness of guilt; * The testimony of General Richard B. Myers at Senate hearings on his nomination as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In these hearings, the contents of which were reported accurately by one lone journalist, General Myers attempted to cover up what had happened 9-11 when he was Acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. He offered three mutually contradictory cover stories and demonstrated consciousness of guilt; To limit the length on this post follow the link... Also read Part 2 before presuming to comment. Please keep in mind that the primary sources consist of major media sources and Officail Military websites. This is not some vauge conspiracy, these are real, important and verifiable facts. Choose to ignore them if you will but that only means that your resulting ignorance is a conscious decision! http://emperors-clothes.com/indict/indict-1.htm

No alleged reason or "excuse" given by anyone whether employed by the very agencies involved or not is acceptable. It is a verifiable fact that in events of either hijacked planes or even planes which have gone off course or lost radio contact- particularly when and if they are flying in or towards sensitive or restricted areas- there is a set protocol which our military follows. This set protocol was not followed on 9/11 and the government officials have yet to answer the question- WHY? The protocol includes immediately scrambling fighter jets, not to shoot down the planes in question but to attempt to make contact and escort them down safely. The last resort would be to shoot down any hijacked planes but the fighter jets would be scrambled regardless. It is a truly sad state of affairs when a people would rather look the other way and close their eyes to the criminal actions of their own government. I guess that it is just much easier to ignore the many unanswered yet pressing questions- and to avoid the many horrible facts which implicate our own leaders in the events witnessed on 9/11/01 Put your blinders on and mock and ridicule those who demand the truth!

Such great arrogance in the initial article, and in many of the responses too! Honestly I don't care so much about 7 minutes or whatever it was- as I do about the obvious fact that the U.S. Military, Air Force and Air National Guard were ordered to stand down on 9/11!!! I am not a liberal by any sense of the word- nor am I a democrat. But it sure is obvious that many here are arrogant mockers of their fellow Christians who have different points of view. So much spiteful mocking of others- why don't you all just start a movement to eliminate everyone who doesn't share your own limited perspective on the issues of our day. As Pres. Bush himself said, it would be much easier if this were a dictatorship- So all you who claim to be Conservative War loving Bush supporters might want to consider rounding up & incarcerating everyone everyone who disagrees with the war agenda of king Bush, then none of those dissenting votes will count. Wow what a great idea! Oh and it is a fact that over 25% of all voting counties have been "upgraded" to electronic voting machines that have no system of checks and balances and no paper trail, which incidentally are provided by pro-Republican companies who have made large campaign contributions in the past. That percentage is enough to sway any vote even if brother Jeb doesn't help this time. So for someone to mock the comment about electronic voting is simply ignorance or arrogance or a combination of both IMO.