Tangent_String

Well thanks everyone for the replies, and sorry for posting the youtube link, I didn't realize that was against the rules, but now that I think about it, I completely understand the reasoning. Thank you for taking the time to find the video on Godtube.

Also, I should note that Paul talks about marriage in a MUCh different way than to say it's simply to have children. He talks about it in terms of sexual release, and love, and all that. I don't think he mentions once that it's to bear children. Paul himself chose to stay single and had no heir, so what does that say about him? THe verse "be fruitful and multiply"... wasn't that given to adam and eve? I'm at work and don't have a bible in front of me, but I couldn't imagine it is talking about today, for all couples.

okay so I did more research and it appears plain that Wesley did NOT believe in total depravity, but that that was a Calvinistic approach. John Wesley original (according to his journals, which I am reading) was something of a puritan. But he didn't understand salvation, as can be seen when he talked to a pastor named .... Oglethorpe I believe? Anyway, John Wesley revealed what he believes, and that he "hopes he's saved" and he"hopes God loves him." But he didn't know these things for sure. He wasn't saved yet. He preached a sermon after becoming saved called "almost Christian" talking about people who tried to live rigid lives, and weren't digging deeper. And basically attacking Calvin's belief in total depravity. So sweet, makes sense now.

alright so it is good news that he has faith in us, but then what does that say about total depravity? Am I misunderstanding it's meaning, or is it simply false doctrine?

I have been a fan of Rob Bell's for a while now, but recently realized how much controversy there was surrounding him. So I've decided to do research on what all the controversy is about and most of it is clearly taking what he has said out of context. But... I found this on youtube - GodTube Video [youtube link removed by George and replaced with a God Tube videoNote from Worthy Christian Forums -- We do not allow YouTube links, but we do allow GodTube links. If you find a link on youtube, more than likely you can find the exact movie on GodTube, so please use the GodTube version. For those who don't want to take the 10 minutes to watch it, basically he takes a clip from one of Rob Bell's short films, titled Dust. In this short Rob Bell talks about how Peter and the other desciples see Jesus walking on water, and Peter, who thinks he's a ghost says "Lord! Is it you?" And Jesus says that it is. So Peter wants to walk on the water too. Bell says that a disciple wanted nothing more than to be like his Rabbi, and Peter is no different. Peter wants to walk on water just like his Rabbi. So Peter gets out of the boat, walks a few steps, and sinks. Bell says "who does peter lose faith in? Christ? Jesus didn't sink. Peter lost faith in peter." So the point Rob Bell is making is that Jesus has faith in US, to be like him. This has meant a great deal to me, knowing that Christ sees more in me than just a pile of filth. That there IS more to me than just a pile of filth. So this pastor has an argument against what Rob Bell is saying. He's going so far as to call Bell a false teacher! He's saying that to say Christ having faith in us is blasphemous (essentially.) He mentioned something in a reply to someone about depravity. I did some research on depravity and it seems to stem from a Wesleyan view of theology. My understanding of total depravity after my research is this - Man is inherently sinful, and wicked. We aren't necessarily as wicked as we can be, but we aren't by any stretch good. That there are a few kinds of grace. Perennial grace is a kind of grace that allows us to go to God. A kind of pre-grace grace that allows us to connect to God despite our sin (please correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't research this stuff until tonight.) Perennial grace leads the way to salvation if we so choose. So the question is then... with a wesleyan doctrine including total depravity, does that mean God doesn't have faith in us? All he sees is a pile of filth? This scares me a lot! I know I need God, and I know I'm nothing without him but... is there really nothing God likes about me? Why did he make me if I'm so useless? And then what does this say about free will? If I'm so bad, then I can't force myself to do good (which is also apart of the depravity theology according to what I read.) But even after grace has come, any good work comes from God, and by no choice of my own because there is no good in me. And then what does that say about people who do good who have never accepted Christ as their savior? Like Ghandi for instance. He changed an entire culture for the better. I've also heard of a woman recently who pushed a child out of the way of a car, only to be hit by it herself. She died. According to the article, I believe she was Mormon. Was that not a good act? I'm not saying she goes to heaven but... that seems like a conscious choice to do good. So I'm confused here, and scared of the answer, but I really need some feedback. Please help guys thanks in advance

Hey. First off there is no real evidence that God destroyed Sodom and Gamora for the only reason being homosexuality. There is evidence that that was going on there, but God's reasoning states that it was perverse and immoral. A bin of evil. It doesn't say "because of all the gay sex." The truth of the matter is, all sexual sin is bad sin. Homosexuality isn't any different than an addiction to porn, or anything else. And I'm not talking about the temptation, I'm talking about the act. Temptation is clearly not wrong, or else Jesus was a sinner. (He was tempted in the desert.) Homosexual temptation isn't wrong, it's not sin to have that desire. It's sin to go out and act on that desire, to bend all your thought on that desire. So by calling the homosexual lifestyle what it is, sin - we can easily KNOW that God loves homosexuals. Just as much as he loves sinful ole me, and sinful ole you. Bottom line- God made us. God made us human. God made us humans loveable. There is NOTHING we can do to destroy that perfect loveable part of ourselves that God himself made. We cover that loveable part with sin, and hurt, and bitterness and anger, but God when he looks at us looks past all that, and at the loveable human being he made. Hitler was loveable, God loves hitler, he loves homosexuals, and he loves you.