ksalzar

I appreciate your wanting to defend your faith and your honesty. I do not know alot either, which is why I always try to discuss these things with people who seek the truth also; so that I may continue to learn of God's truth. I know it has to be frustrating to put forth example after example of Jesus being God and for me to give quick responses as to why I don't see it as proofs of Jesus being God. It has been very trying for me over the past year studying this issue. Coming to the point where I can actually say that I do not think the trinity is biblical has been a very challenging step for me. Some of my trinitarian brothers in Christ still discuss and talk with me, some have said we cannot be in communion over this anymore and labeled me heretical, some I have yet to talk to about it. Despite all this turmoil due to the issue, I trust in God who saves, and as for the way which many of my brothers/sisters have labeled "heretical" I must confess I still am seeking the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. I continue to search out my own heart, and ask God's guidance into His truth; for those who fear God and do what is right are acceptable to Him. Peace be with you sir, -Kyle

Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost unto the disciples and told them this. So the disciples had the power to forgive sins now. What if everyone whose sins they remitted called them Gods? Would that be right. Jesus didnt forgive sins on His own accord but the Father gave Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure which gave Jesus the power to forgive sins just as the disciples could forgive sins after Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost that He received from the Father. I have another question. How can God give Jesus the Holy Ghost without measure if Jesus is God and the trinity can never be seperated. Was there a point when Jesus was without the Holy Ghost? If yes, then was there a twin-ity for a certain period of time? If no, then how can God give Jesus that Jesus already has? Seeking, BigD. Oh yeah, I forgot about that point for forgiveness of sin. :x: Thanks for the reminder, /me puts back into memory bank.

This is over my head but they have some very knowledgeable stuff Here you might want to check out.

There is a very good article concerning the word translated worship which is applied to Jesus Here. The end is very telling, at the end of the article you will find that this person actually dialogues, through email, with the Lockman Foundation , which is the organization who translated the NASB. This dialogue is an interesting read, and the article is a good read to, in my humble opinion.

The Pharisees were upset at Jesus and tried to slander and catch him in tricks at each chance they got, thus I am hesitent to base my theology on what the Pharisees say in response to Jesus. Indeed at many points they tried to do things like, throw him off a cliff without a trial (which is unlawfull by their law), accused him of being demon possessed, accused him of being a drunkard, tried to catch him in the trap of who to pay taxes to; etc etc. The fact that they brought none of these things up at the trial shows even more so that they were trying to slander and trap Jesus.

I understand that like this: When Jesus said He was the Son of God, it was like He was saying He was God. That's how they seemed to understand it, and that's why they were so upset. Kyle: First, no one, no other god was to ever be worshipped except God Himself. And, Jesus was worshipped many times in the Bible, including at His birth, and never, ever was anyone reprimanded for doing so: And more examples, but I think this is plenty. Every time a man tried to worship an angel that appeared, or some other human, they were told to get up and worship not, and to only worship God - or words to that effect. Never, ever did Jesus tell anyone to get up and not worship Him. Jesus accepted the worship. So, if Jesus is not God, then Jesus was accepting worship that He shouldn't have, and was putting on a false front. But, He accepted it, and by doing that, people knew He was God. The Scribes and Pharisees knew what that meant also, I'm sure. Second: Only God could forgive sins. Jesus forgave sins while He was here on earth. Another thing that only God Himself was supposed to be able to do, yet we find Jesus doing it. The Scribes and Pharisees also knew what that meant, and they didn't like it at all. They accused him of blasphemy: Third: When Jesus said : "Before Abraham was, I am.", they knew what that meant also. See their reaction to that? They took up stones to throw at Him. They knew that "I am" was one of God's names. In this John passage, they also knew what Jesus was meaning when he said "I and my Father are one." They were going to stone Him again for blasphemy and for "making himself God." It is what was meant, and they understood that. I believe this is why they were so angry with Him, and said he was blaspheming and making Himself God. Then another one. They were asking him if He was the Christ, the Son of the Blessed. Jesus answered "I am", (again, "I am"), and a little more. Look what the high priest did when he heard that. He rent his clothes and said "Ye have heard the blasphemy". What would be blasphemy about saying he was merely the Son of God, or the Christ, if it didn't mean that He was God. I believe they knew that the meaning of Son of God was saying He was God Himself. That's what their reaction shows anyway. So when Jesus said he was the Son of God, you think he was saying he is God? That is illogical, when I say I am the Son of my Dad, does that mean I'm My Dad? God gave Jesus the power to do many things, one of which was to forgive sins. Only God can work miracles also, but the apostles brought people back to life; this does not make them God in my mind. People in the OT had to look to a snake on a pole or they would die, obviously God was using the snake on the pole; the snake itself was not required to be God. This snake was a type of Christ, who God also works through. As for the argument that Jesus was worshiped therefore he must be God. This used to be a strong reason why I believed the trinity was biblical, as I have done some research I have dropped that support for Jesus being God. Here is why: There are many words translated worship in the New Testament. Only one of those are applied to Jesus. That word translated worship which is applied to Jesus is also applied to other men, who obviously are not God. Sincerely, Kyle

For starters the One True God can subject all things to Jesus feet, and then have Jesus be subject to Him. What is telling to me is not so much how much knowledge or power Jesus has, as the fact that it is derived and less than God's. Jesus consistently identifies the Father as greater than himself, he also indentifies the Father as his God and our God. He also says that he receives his authority from God, and that he lives because of God. I found the following verse I will quote very telling because it is Jesus speaking after he is glorified: In the gospels whenever Jesus speaks of "My God" the common trinitarian response is that Jesus is speaking from his humanity. Here, though, in Rev 3:12 we see Jesus speaking in his glorified position and referring repeatedly to "My God".

Whether or not the letter "g" is capitalized or not is based on the translators understanding of Jesus being God. The Pharisees were offended for many reasons, and often slandered Jesus How do you understand this verse? I understand this as Jesus making himself equal in authority with God, for God had given all authority unto the Son. I have addressed the phrase "being in the form of God" already a few times on this thread. Have you looked at the other respected translations of this verse? NIV ...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, NAS ...did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, ESV ...did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, These are all respected trinitarian translations as well, yet they see the verse differently. They say that Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, which conflicts with how I think you understand John 5:18. I may be misunderstanding you though, Perhaps you could comment on this for me? I notice that nowhere in the trial are any of the occosians of Jesus claiming to be God brought up. Surely if Jesus had claimed this they would have been brought up as obvious charges of blasphemy in the trial, for Jesus said them openly. Yet they were not, I think this is a good indication that the Jews were slandering and misrepresenting Jesus, and that Jesus was not meaning these things as the trinitarian puts forth. Surely if he was openly saying these things the Jews would have had an easy time of charging him with blasphemy. But we see none of these obvious blasphemous charges brought up, indeed the only thing they find against him is that he claims to be the Son of God, King of the Jews, and shall be raised to the right hand of God.

Hi again, Kyle. To add to the "Thomas" reference, here is one more: Heb. 1 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. I think that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the Trinity, and am not intending to change the point of the thread. You are correct in thinking that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the trinity. I used to be convinced that those verses you put forth prove Jesus is God also, but now I am not convinced; here is why: First, doubting Thomas: Jesus says the following in John 10: John 10:33-36 33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If He called them gods to whom the word of God came - and the Scripture cannot be broken - 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? Here the Jews thought Jesus was making himself out to be God in verse 33. Jesus reply though, is to show where in the Scripture God the Father has called other men "god" eventhough they are not The One True God, and this was not blasphemous. Jesus of course was not making the point that there are multiple God's, for we all agree there is only one God, rather he points us to a place in Scripture (Scripture which is infallible, "cannot be broken") where the word "god" is used of men without making them God. This is why the doubting Thomas verse is not convincing to me, because these Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 10. Jesus reply is to point out other men whom God called "gods" but were obviously not "equal with God". As to Hebrews 1:5-7, they simply show Jesus is the Son of God; which I agree with. Hebrews 1:8 is where it is said of Jesus, "O God", and here is why I'm not convinced this proves Jesus is God: Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45: Psalm 45 1 My heart overflows with a good theme I address my verses to the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer. 2 You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever. 3 Gird Your sword on Your thigh, O Mighty One, In Your splendor and Your majesty! 4 And in Your majesty ride on victoriously, For the cause of truth and meekness and righteousness; Let Your right hand teach You awesome things. 5 Your arrows are sharp; The peoples fall under You; Your arrows are in the heart of the King's enemies. 6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 7 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of Joy above Your fellows. 8 All Your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia; Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made You glad. 9 Kings' daughters are among Your noble ladies; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir, 10 Listen, O daughter, give attention and incline your ear: Forget your peole and your father's house; 11 Then the King will desire your beauty. Because He is your Lord, bow down to Him. 12 The daughter of Tyre will come with a girft; The rich among the people will seek your favor. 13 The King's daughter is all glorious within; Her clothing is interwoven with gold. 14 She will be led to the King in embroidered work The virgins, her companions who follow her, Will be brought to You. 15 They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing; They will enter into the King's palace. 16 In place of your fathers will be your sons; You shall make them princes in all the earth. 17 I will cause Your name to be remember in all generations; Therefore the people will give You thanks forever and ever. This Psalm was written originally for the King of the time, either David or Solomon, by a choir director. Since this is the case, these words apply to the King of the time also, and the author of Hebrews has rightfully applied them to Jesus now since he is established on the throne of David. My objection is that are we willing to concede that the King of the time, David or Solomon (whichever it was written for), is God also? For the words were applied to that King originally, and now are applied to Christ at the fullness of the times. I believe in the Psalms/Hebrews text the word "gods" is referring to earthly judges in the Old Testament. They had the power of literal life or death in their rulings over the people. You can read in Exodus (chapters 21 & 22) and see more in detail. Here is a short commentary on that, and a verse that calls the judges "gods": D. Guzik study guide: 4. (34-39) Jesus reasons with them on the basis of Scripture (quoting from Psalm 82) and His works a. The judges of Psalm 82 were called "gods" because in their office they determined the fate of other men i. Also, in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9, God calls earthly judges "gods" b. Jesus is saying "if God gives these unjust judges the title "gods" because of their office, why do you consider it blasphemy that I call Myself the "Son of God" in light of the testimony of Me and My works?" Exodus 22 28: Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. I agree completely. So in this passage I see a parallel between men who were appointed to authority by God, men whom the word of God came to, as judges; and Jesus who was appointed, set apart as a ruler and a judge by God. Here is a little something I have typed up on my view of the passage previously:Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? Jesus quotes from verse 6a of Psalm 82 in reply to these particular Jews who were accusing him of blasphemy. Notice that part b of verse 6 says "sons of the Most High" which is the title Jesus is claiming for himself("Son of God"), to which the Jews are having problems.to whom the word of God came This phrase is an important part to understanding Jesus response in this situation. The word of God came to the people in this quote in a unique way. The word of God comes to me or you in the sense that we read the Bible. The people that Psalm 82:6 refers to were judges and rulers. People who acted as agents of divine judgment, these men were to interpret and explain God's word. This is similar to Jesus who was "sanctified", or set apart, and "sent into the world". The word of God came to Jesus. Let us look at Hebrews 1: Hebrews 1 1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son... We see here that "long ago" God spoke through the prophets. The word of God came to the prophets and they related the word to men. In the same way "in these last days" the word of God has come to Jesus, and Jesus has declared God's word to us. Look at Hebrews 2: Hebrews 2 1 Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2 For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. The word of God has come to Jesus and Jesus has declared it. Indeed, statements similar to the one we find in John 12:49-50 are very common: John 12:49-50 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment - what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me." The word of God came to Jesus: "Father...has himself given me a commandment" and "the Father has told me". God has sent Jesus: "the Father who sent me". We have another parallel between Jesus and these men of Psalm 86 who were agents of divine judgment in Acts: Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as a Judge of the living and the dead. This final statement is a strong one from my understanding. Jesus has been appointed by God as a Judge, just as these men in Psalm 86 were. I see this as relevant to the doubting Thomas declareation, because Jesus is pointing out right here how men can be called "gods" and "sons of the Most High" without it meaning they are the One True God.

You are correct in thinking that Jesus being God is a necessary part of the trinity. I used to be convinced that those verses you put forth prove Jesus is God also, but now I am not convinced; here is why: First, doubting Thomas: Jesus says the following in John 10: Here the Jews thought Jesus was making himself out to be God in verse 33. Jesus reply though, is to show where in the Scripture God the Father has called other men "god" eventhough they are not The One True God, and this was not blasphemous. Jesus of course was not making the point that there are multiple God's, for we all agree there is only one God, rather he points us to a place in Scripture (Scripture which is infallible, "cannot be broken") where the word "god" is used of men without making them God. This is why the doubting Thomas verse is not convincing to me, because these Jews accused Jesus of making himself equal with God in John 10. Jesus reply is to point out other men whom God called "gods" but were obviously not "equal with God". As to Hebrews 1:5-7, they simply show Jesus is the Son of God; which I agree with. Hebrews 1:8 is where it is said of Jesus, "O God", and here is why I'm not convinced this proves Jesus is God: Hebrews 1:8 is a quote of Psalm 45: This Psalm was written originally for the King of the time, either David or Solomon, by a choir director. Since this is the case, these words apply to the King of the time also, and the author of Hebrews has rightfully applied them to Jesus now since he is established on the throne of David. My objection is that are we willing to concede that the King of the time, David or Solomon (whichever it was written for), is God also? For the words were applied to that King originally, and now are applied to Christ at the fullness of the times.

Could you answer these questions for me? Are these two verses in reference to post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both? Are these two verses in reference to us being a new creation? If so do we have a new physical body yet? Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both? Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both? Is this verse in reference to Jesus post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both? Are these verses in reference to post-resurrection, pre-resurrection or both?

Kyle, on this we can agree. God is great my friend and I appreciate your honesty and openness. Continue to search for His TRUTH, as we all should, through the Holy Spirit and you will find it. Thank you for praying me as well. I came to accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior 14 years ago, when I was 31 years old. Since then, I have been growing, many times in spurts as a child does. I am an avid reader but get this...I never read the Bible cover to cover until just a few year ago. Yes, I read bits and pieces but never cover to cover. Then one day, I picked up God's WORD and started at the beginning, where He used the plurality of the words OUR and US in reference to Himself. [Genesis 1:26] Then I read how in the flesh He conversed with Abraham [Genesis 18:1], wrestled with Jacob [Genesis 32:30], and spoke to Joshua [Joshua 5:14]...and on and on. Please don't think this is my attempt of moving onto other "proof text". We all tend to do it because God's WORD is ALL interwoven. A thread on its own doesn't offer much but once it is woven into a garmet, it has form and can shield us from the elements. I am trying to make the point that God's WORD must be read from beginning to end to understand the full context of His message for mankind. It is ALL interconnected and NO phrase or word is meant to be casual. When Jesus, the great Rabbi with ALL knowledge and understanding (I assume we agree on this) referred to Himself as I AM, He knew exactly what He was saying. When Thomas referred to Him as God, I am sure that the One chosen to sit at the right hand of the Father would have corrected Him IF it was not true. I will work on a response to your last post to me later. For now, know that I really do love you friend because in you I sense a desire for TRUTH and not conformity for the sake of being one of the crowd. BUT you must be willing to look at ALL the evidence in CONTEXT of the Word of God as the Holy Spirit gives understanding. I have done so and I can see NO other answer than God is triune in nature with the fullness of God dwelling in Jesus Christ, our redeemer and mediator. Many have seen God

Thank you, I pray the likewise for you.

You sir just twisted it. If you want to get technical, its say He created Heaven and earth with everything in them, don't Twist scripture All you have to do is read Genesis chapture 1 to know God made everything in it. God Didn't create Hevaen and earth and say to Jesus, here you God create everything else, no Because in Gen. chapture 1, you see that God made the Heavens and the Earth with everything in it. I am not trying to twist scripture. Could you please try to look at it from my perspective before you accuse me of purposely twisting scripture? I am very unappreciative of this. It does not say he created Heaven and earth, it says he created things in the heavens and things on the earth. That is exactly what it says. Furthermore I have already shown you why I think the context shows that these things created are in the realm of authorities and powers and thrones, not literal things such as flesh or water or earth as are the things created in the Genesis account. I have read Gen 1 and I know God created all these literal things, the problem I am having is I do not see that Colossians 1 presents Jesus as creating anything literal like the water, plants or animals. We are going to have to agree to disagree I suppose, but it does not require you to attack me as "twisting scripture". Explain to me how I twisted it instead of attacking me personally, use the Greek and Hebrew that you know so well, please, something constructive.

I have been seeking the Lord's TRUTH through the HOLY SPIRIT since about 8 years ago when I became a christian. It has led me to the truth that the Bible does not teach Jesus is God. I pray the same for you as well, that the SPIRIT will lead you towards the LORD's TRUTH. Whichever of us is correct, I pray that both of us will be led to the correct understanding. I find this hard to do though, when each time I try to address a specific verse, the person moves onto another "proof text" without sincerely discussing the one in question. You seem to be the first person who has been willing to address my objections, that speaks of your heart and character. Let us continue this dialogue in hopes of reaching the truth. Then how is it i lead a godly life? how come you can see God throught Botz & Saved by Grace etc...? how then do i know other subjects with out even studying it before? Because we have the Holy spirit... And i will also pray for you to see the REAL Truth, because what you have is a lie. and this all respect, I don't think it was the holy spirit leading you through the scriptures, i think it was you and other Humans leading you through the Scripture. God is real in my life he has told me before He is God... He has given me and im sure others Great wisdom we don't know got there. Dude, I think you need to rediscover God. You have twisted Scripture and I know you have because I study Ancient Greek & Latin. Well perhaps then you could explain to me how I have twisted scripture in a respectful, straightforward manner. Thus far each time I put forth my objections to your understanding of a passage a new passage has been put forth. Earlier you said: I am by no means a scholar on Greek or Hebrew, but I would love for you to present for me the facts honestly so that I may learn why I am completely wrong on the subject. I brought up the word "form" used in Philippians, perhaps we could start there and you could explain to me why it means nature or essence?

I have been seeking the Lord's TRUTH through the HOLY SPIRIT since about 8 years ago when I became a christian. It has led me to the truth that the Bible does not teach Jesus is God. I pray the same for you as well, that the SPIRIT will lead you towards the LORD's TRUTH. Whichever of us is correct, I pray that both of us will be led to the correct understanding. I find this hard to do though, when each time I try to address a specific verse, the person moves onto another "proof text" without sincerely discussing the one in question. You seem to be the first person who has been willing to address my objections, that speaks of your heart and character. Let us continue this dialogue in hopes of reaching the truth.

You are not understanding my argument if you think I am using that verse to prove Jesus is not God. I am doing no such thing. I used this verse and the one you replied to above to show that the statements in the Colossians creation account are about the new creation which is through Christ, not the literal Genesis creation. You have claimed that the Colossians creation account encompasses the literal creation of the heavens and earth, I have shown that this is not the case. It is to the exclusion of the literal creation of the heavens and the earth, for Paul even qualifies in the account itself ... "things in the heavens and on the earth". My purpose with this is not to show Jesus is not God, but rather simply to show that this passage cannot be used to prove Jesus is God. We must look elsewhere to prove Jesus is God. Please re-read my position.