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************ You threw a lot of stuff out there Ivy Eater. So much, in fact your lead post suggests that you don't really want an answer. You seem to only want to fly your flag and see who salutes it. Wouldn't your effort be better served in the blog section where you can state your position in its entirety not really expecting a debate? Nevertheless I believe I'll have a go..................... Calvin vs. Arminius Your post doesn't help those who are confused between the doctrines of John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius. Are you Presbyterian or are you Southern Baptist? Or perhaps you're evangelical - a group which only knows 'you must be saved' and aren't really sure why. In brief, Calvin's position is that divine grace is irresistable. Calvin believed the spirit of man is totally dead and depraved and has no ability or desire to rise to the occasion of acceptable repentance unto salvation. Man cannot and will not seek salvation at all. Everything is God's doing. God has decided ahead of time who will be saved and who will be left to wither on the spiritual vine, so to speak. Following the point of spiritual regeneration/getting saved, the work of sanctification would commence in earnest. Arminius' position was that divine grace elevated the dead human spirit to the point where Christ could be accepted or rejected. Following the point of accepting Christ, spiritual regeneration/getting saved, the work of sanctification would commence in earnest. It should be carefully noted that in both instances, in both doctrinal camps, the Holy Spirit's task of conviction of sin and sanctification are identical. It should also be noted that the Bible clearly indicates yet another category. Certain persons of leadership were selected out of the general population and groomed for special tasks and ministries. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Sampson, Samuel, Saul and David to name a few were leaders specially groomed for God's purpose. Only ONE was prepared before birth for His ministry - Jesus. These individuals had a special purpose in God's plan for the redemption of man. The rest of us are referred to as sheep. I've no problem with that because the Master takes really good care of His flock. I'm not a world leader, a national leader or even a community leader. I'm a family man and a sheep of His pasture. That's pretty cool to my way of thinking. It is better to be a sheep in the Master's flock than the Beast who rules the world for a moment of time. Returning to my main point, the pivot for the argument between Calvin and Arminius, is whether or not the person thus enabled to the point of choice is predisposed to accept Christ as his Lord and Savior - or not. Once upon a time, long ago and far away, I was elevated by the Holy Spirit to just this position of enlightenment. I accepted Christ enthusiastically. However, I also had a friend who experienced the same elevation and who told me later that he addressed the Holy Spirit by saying, "This is very nice, thank you very much but I don't want it." I guess by now you've put me in the group that agrees with Jacobus Arminius. If you have, you'd be right. By scriptural study, by experience and by relationship with Christ I do believe in liberty - liberty in spirit if indeed we do not enjoy it politically any more. Praise God who has blessed man with such a great blessing. and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...