apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Fiosh, the onus is not upon us to prove Sola Scriptura. The onus is on the one who claims that the Bible is not the final authority, the final court of appeal on doctrinal matters. If sufficient cause cannot be found to justify your rant against Sola Scriptura, then Sola Scriptura is true. I would also point out, that Sola Scriptura has no bearing on whether or not churches ordain homosexuals or what not. That is not a product of adhering to Sola Scriptura. The Catholic church was recently rocked with an embarrassing scandal of child molesting priests and such, and your oh-so glorious Magesterium got busted for trying to cover it up. So much for their being men of God. Immorality in among Christians has nothing to do with how they interpret Scripture but upon a refusal to obey God. It has everything to do with it. Yes, the RCC has been rocked with scandal and it disgusts me. We are a church of saints and sinners, and fully admit it. But it is not an approved policy of the church to molest children. However, it IS the approved policy of some churches to allow active homosexuals to lead their churches. This is in open defiance to Scripture. They interpret Scripture to say it is a practice sanctioned by the word of God; at least according to their interpretation. But that's not Sola Scriptura It stems from leaving interpretation of Scripture to the individual. So I should leave the interpertation to an institution that interperted scripture in order to justify wars and murders? Yeah....about that.... I speak, read, and write Greek...I know it well enough to know too many people out there (Protestant and Catholic) twist the words to render an entire meaning. I WILL NOT trust one man or a group of men to do the interpreting for me unless a logical and intellectual case can be made for it. 90% of the time with Catholics, that cannot be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Fiosh, the onus is not upon us to prove Sola Scriptura. The onus is on the one who claims that the Bible is not the final authority, the final court of appeal on doctrinal matters. If sufficient cause cannot be found to justify your rant against Sola Scriptura, then Sola Scriptura is true. I would also point out, that Sola Scriptura has no bearing on whether or not churches ordain homosexuals or what not. That is not a product of adhering to Sola Scriptura. The Catholic church was recently rocked with an embarrassing scandal of child molesting priests and such, and your oh-so glorious Magesterium got busted for trying to cover it up. So much for their being men of God. Immorality in among Christians has nothing to do with how they interpret Scripture but upon a refusal to obey God. It has everything to do with it. Yes, the RCC has been rocked with scandal and it disgusts me. We are a church of saints and sinners, and fully admit it. But it is not an approved policy of the church to molest children. However, it IS the approved policy of some churches to allow active homosexuals to lead their churches. This is in open defiance to Scripture. They interpret Scripture to say it is a practice sanctioned by the word of God; at least according to their interpretation. But that's not Sola Scriptura It stems from leaving interpretation of Scripture to the individual. No it does not. It stems from a rejection of Scripture, not an interpretation of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Nope. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that a man or woman who totally submits his/her life to God and lives in union with Him, as much as that is humanly possible, is a model for us all. The RCC recognizes this, and praises God for His grace. Many saints, if not most, were simple ordinary folks. It is their total submission to the will of God that we strive to imitate. Then why aren't there more Saints? Why haven't they recognized more? Why is a single mother living but raising her kids in the proper biblical manner never considered for sainthood? Nope. Not making it up. I already addressed this fully in the Virgin Mary thread. heos does not make a statement about any further activity For example: I Cor 15:25 "...[Jesus] must reign until (heos) He has put all His enemies under His feet." Will He then stop reigning??? According to your limited definition, yes. *sigh* The Greek word for "until" here is archi, not heos. It is properly interpreted as "even to", thus in 1 Cor it would mean that Christ has to reign, even to the ends of His enemies. This indicates a perpetual motion whereas heos indicates a limited motion that ends at a certian action. C'mon now. Yes, there are many related issues. I'm only asking that for now we try to stay focused on the concepts of "sS" and "T". Tradition encompasses and violates scripture on these issues, thus they must be discussed. Again. I simply want to iron out what we already have on the table before moving on. Same logic as above. However, most of your offense seems to consist of building up a straw man and knocking him down. How have I made a straw man? Provide analysis. Still waiting...especially on your attempt to show that "until" doesn't indicate a stopped action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Re: heos Matt 5:18 Matt 12:20 Matt 16:28 In each of these verses it is clear that the action does not cease after the time implied by the word "until". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Fiosh, the onus is not upon us to prove Sola Scriptura. The onus is on the one who claims that the Bible is not the final authority, the final court of appeal on doctrinal matters. If sufficient cause cannot be found to justify your rant against Sola Scriptura, then Sola Scriptura is true. I would also point out, that Sola Scriptura has no bearing on whether or not churches ordain homosexuals or what not. That is not a product of adhering to Sola Scriptura. The Catholic church was recently rocked with an embarrassing scandal of child molesting priests and such, and your oh-so glorious Magesterium got busted for trying to cover it up. So much for their being men of God. Immorality in among Christians has nothing to do with how they interpret Scripture but upon a refusal to obey God. It has everything to do with it. Yes, the RCC has been rocked with scandal and it disgusts me. We are a church of saints and sinners, and fully admit it. But it is not an approved policy of the church to molest children. However, it IS the approved policy of some churches to allow active homosexuals to lead their churches. This is in open defiance to Scripture. They interpret Scripture to say it is a practice sanctioned by the word of God; at least according to their interpretation. But that's not Sola Scriptura It stems from leaving interpretation of Scripture to the individual. No it does not. It stems from a rejection of Scripture, not an interpretation of it. No. They interpret Scripture to allow for the practice...as with women preachers....as with divorce....as with abortion.....etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Wow.... Matt 5:18 It is saying that the law (moral law) will stand UNTIL Heaven and earth pass away (in their current forms). After this, there will be no need for it because of the restored state of creation. That's what the entire context is teaching. THus, the action does cease. Matt 12:20 How does this indicate a continued action? Provide analysis. Matt 16:28 You're kidding right? This is VERY clear saying that once they see the comming of the Son of Man (John) they will taste death after. In essence, they will be kept alive UNTIL they see this occur, after which, they will taste death. This too means the action does cease. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Fiosh, the onus is not upon us to prove Sola Scriptura. The onus is on the one who claims that the Bible is not the final authority, the final court of appeal on doctrinal matters. If sufficient cause cannot be found to justify your rant against Sola Scriptura, then Sola Scriptura is true. I would also point out, that Sola Scriptura has no bearing on whether or not churches ordain homosexuals or what not. That is not a product of adhering to Sola Scriptura. The Catholic church was recently rocked with an embarrassing scandal of child molesting priests and such, and your oh-so glorious Magesterium got busted for trying to cover it up. So much for their being men of God. Immorality in among Christians has nothing to do with how they interpret Scripture but upon a refusal to obey God. It has everything to do with it. Yes, the RCC has been rocked with scandal and it disgusts me. We are a church of saints and sinners, and fully admit it. But it is not an approved policy of the church to molest children. However, it IS the approved policy of some churches to allow active homosexuals to lead their churches. This is in open defiance to Scripture. They interpret Scripture to say it is a practice sanctioned by the word of God; at least according to their interpretation. But that's not Sola Scriptura It stems from leaving interpretation of Scripture to the individual. No it does not. It stems from a rejection of Scripture, not an interpretation of it. No. They interpret Scripture to allow for the practice...as with women preachers....as with divorce....as with abortion.....etc. ANd your excuse for the inquisition and crusades, both of which the Catholics used scripture for (God Wills it)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 No. They interpret Scripture to allow for the practice...as with women preachers....as with divorce....as with abortion.....etc No, their appeal is usually that the Bible is unreliable, that it was written by men. It is because they reject the Bible as the final authority that they can accept homosexuals, and abortion. It is the rejection of the Bible's moral authority that is generally at issue there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruah brit Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 280 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 Is everything thing we need to know contained in the Bible? Yes. Here is the only lesson of scripture you need to know. Lu 11 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Mt 7 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Here is what follows once the Lord gives you "His Spirit". Joh 15 26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.(Christ) Joh 14 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. Joh 16 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. Denise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiosh Posted October 30, 2005 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 73 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,663 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/20/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 30, 2005 No. They interpret Scripture to allow for the practice...as with women preachers....as with divorce....as with abortion.....etc No, their appeal is usually that the Bible is unreliable, that it was written by men. It is because they reject the Bible as the final authority that they can accept homosexuals, and abortion. It is the rejection of the Bible's moral authority that is generally at issue there. Which still stems from the fact that they have no structure within which to be held accountable. No one to hold the Bible up to them and say not only, "It is written", but also, "our Father's thru the ages have taught thus". In the RCC there is no such appeal. The Bible is the inspired word of God. I know that because Jesus thru His Apostles, and thru His Church assures me it is. Shiloh, If I held these beliefs, and was not Catholic, could you see the logic? Imagine I am a Messianic (yeah, I know, quite a stretch), but humor me... Suppose I was trying to convince you that Jesus set up a hierarchical Church with authority to lead His people. He put James in charge here on earth after He ascended into heaven. Jesus chose the other 11 Jewish men to spread the message and set up churches thoughout the world. They were instructed to appoint bishops by the laying on of hands. In addition to Scriptures, Jesus did and taught many things that were not written down. These things did not, of course, contradict the Bible. But rather helped to develop the teachings and doctrines that were written down. These messages were passed down thru the generations, as one bishop appointed the next. All this was guided by the Holy Spirit who guards the truth, so it will not be defiled. Thru the generations, some very sinful men hold seats of authority, but even they cannot defile the truth. The Holy Spirit will not allow it. The church grows and spreads throughout the world. It is charged with guiding the faithful to a deeper understanding of the word and The Word. Some may stray from the fold, human pride makes obedience too humiliating. We are often unwilling to accept authority. And still the Holy Spirit guides and protects the church. If this were some other "Church" would it be more palatable? Peace, Fiosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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