secondeve Posted July 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted July 12, 2006 BTW, I'm using punnishment the way emeraldgirl means discipline. I only chose that word because LadyC used it, and I wanted to make myself clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 any denial of freedom is a punishment to a child. when my children were small, they did steal a candybar, and like you, i marched them straight back to the store and made them give the half-eaten candy bar to the manager. i paid for it, they were too young to have money. that was discipline. my children are adults now, one serving in iraq, the other now has her own child. but to this day, they still remember that disciplinary action as punishment. why? because it was a corrective measure that made them take responsibility for their actions in a way that was not pleasant on their parts. if you ground a child, that is discipline. ask any teenager or remember your own youth and you'll recall it as punishment. consequences, punishment, corrective discipline can be interchangeable words, depending on the perspective of who's on the giving end and who's on the receiving end. but in a very black and white world, you're correct, they are not interchangeable. hell is not a punishment, it's a consequence that God allows because He is a JUST God... not a permissive one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 secondeve, we have an entire lifetime of being disciplined by God, millions upon millions of opportunities to accept salvation. He doesn't "send" anyone to hell, he allows them to go their because they were not willing to accept the gift of life. he allows it because they were unwilling to "learn". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 by the way, i haven't read enough of your posts to know exactly where you're coming from, so i apologize for my ignorance, because i'm sure you've stated your position before. so i'm not sure if you're asking these things in the abstract, or if you're asking these questions because you haven't accepted Christ. if it's the latter, then can you please tell me why, when you know that the consequence of rejecting God is hell, you are unwilling to accept eternal life? and if this is the case, and you KNOW what the consequence is, and you still reject Him, then what right do you have to blame Him for your choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondeve Posted July 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted July 12, 2006 He doesn't "send" anyone to hell, he allows them to go their because they were not willing to accept the gift of life. he allows it because they were unwilling to "learn". Essentially, then, he gives up on us, and accepts our decision for damnation. If you could forcibly stop your child from destroying him/herself as a very last resort, would you? Or would you let them walk into the fire because they'd made bad choices despite what you'd taught them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondeve Posted July 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted July 12, 2006 by the way, i haven't read enough of your posts to know exactly where you're coming from, so i apologize for my ignorance, because i'm sure you've stated your position before. so i'm not sure if you're asking these things in the abstract, or if you're asking these questions because you haven't accepted Christ. if it's the latter, then can you please tell me why, when you know that the consequence of rejecting God is hell, you are unwilling to accept eternal life? and if this is the case, and you KNOW what the consequence is, and you still reject Him, then what right do you have to blame Him for your choice? LadyC: I'm an athiest. If my language suggests otherwise sometimes, it's because I'm trying to pose questions to people who do believe. I'm not actively blaming him or angry at him, because - although you may think this is worse - I don't believe he exists. If I talk as though I do, it's because, for the purposes of discussions about Christianity with Christians, I effectively have to say, 'for argument's sake, if God exists...' and then ask. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeraldgirl Posted July 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 179 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/07/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1971 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 Secondeve, you're post was awesome! we have an entire lifetime of being disciplined by God, millions upon millions of opportunities to accept salvation. He doesn't "send" anyone to hell, he allows them to go their because they were not willing to accept the gift of life. he allows it because they were unwilling to "learn". Lady C, I disagree, because we cannot know this for a fact. Unlike our children, who will know what we expect and will know when they don't meet those expectations, we cannot know for sure what God expects, or if we're meeting it, or if everything we believe is the "right" thing. The Muslims believe they are doing the right thing. The Mormans believe they are. The JW believe they are. And so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 i wasn't judgeing your words or attitude secondeve, i was just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from. to answer your question, i have a daughter who is destroying her life in many ways. and no, i don't force her to stop doing things that bring her harm. it's not my job to force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. it is my job as a parent to make her aware of her options and try to steer her in the right direction, but ultimately, the choice is hers. but i will never, ever give up on her, as long as she draws breath. nor will God give up on her, or on any of us, as long as we have breath and have the ability to accept Him. and there is no limit, as long as a person is physically alive, to their opportunity to accept. let me illustrate what i mean with a little story that settled the question for me several years ago as to whether a person had to be concious to accept Christ. i had a cousin who, about six years ago, was in a car accident. she was in a coma for a week before they took her off the machines that were keeping her heart beating. her father's pastor came in to pray for her while she was in the coma, and as he prayed, a single, bloody tear rolled down mariah's cheek. i have no doubt that i will see her one day in heaven. but once we're dead, there is no turning back. you're no longer alive to accept the gift of salvation any more than mariah is able to accept the gift of a new mercedes. the fact that she's not driving around in a shiny new car isn't a punishment... it's just simply that she is no longer alive to accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Secondeve, you're post was awesome! we have an entire lifetime of being disciplined by God, millions upon millions of opportunities to accept salvation. He doesn't "send" anyone to hell, he allows them to go their because they were not willing to accept the gift of life. he allows it because they were unwilling to "learn". Lady C, I disagree, because we cannot know this for a fact. Unlike our children, who will know what we expect and will know when they don't meet those expectations, we cannot know for sure what God expects, or if we're meeting it, or if everything we believe is the "right" thing. The Muslims believe they are doing the right thing. The Mormans believe they are. The JW believe they are. And so on. emerald, may i ask the same question of you? do you know Jesus? you're incorrect, we CAN know for a fact, and we CAN know for sure what God expects, because it's in His written word. Mormon's believe in the book of Mormon... the words of joseph smith... which contradict the word of God in many, many instances. the muslims believe Christ was a man, a prophet, but not the living Son of God. i don't know what the JW's believe in, so i can't speak with any intelligence there. but if they're believing anything other than the written word of God, then they are believing in the wrong thing. God's word says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our tongue that Jesus is the living Son of the living God, who IS God, and who sacrificed His life for ours, and then rose again on the third day, then we will be spared from hell. THAT is what God expects of us, and we can know that without any doubt whatsoever. and we do have every opportunity to accept. God's word also says that nobody will die without knowing their options, so that none will be without excuse. if nobody is around to tell them of Jesus's sacrifice, the rocks will cry out and let them know. so we all have the choice, and we all have ample opportunity to choose heaven over hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondeve Posted July 12, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,276 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/02/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/21/1986 Share Posted July 12, 2006 (edited) i wasn't judgeing your words or attitude secondeve, i was just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from. [/quote} I didn't think you were judging me; sorry if my tone was off. Also, thanks emeraldgirl! to answer your question, i have a daughter who is destroying her life in many ways. and no, i don't force her to stop doing things that bring her harm. it's not my job to force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. it is my job as a parent to make her aware of her options and try to steer her in the right direction, but ultimately, the choice is hers. I'm sorry to hear about our daughter. I suppose what I think is this: that our responsibility to a person we care about is to advise and let them make their own decisions for as long as possible, right up until the point at which they are in no position to make rational judgements or at which their life or the lives of those around them are directly threatened. Example: somebody dangerously addicted to heroin is going to be pretty much incapable of staying away from it or giving it up of their own free will. Unless they are made to take the first step, they'll destroy themselves. If I see someone about to commit suicide, I'm not going to stop and think about their right to die; I believe they have this right (which is another question entirely) but I'd rather take the chance that they have made a poor decision and should think it over rationally - and stop them - than assume it's no business of mine, no matter how sad it makes me. Edited July 12, 2006 by secondeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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