sylvan3 Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 How can the following verses be reconciled? They appear contradictory. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." --Romans 3:20,28 (NIV) versus "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." --Romans 2:12,13 (NIV) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMJ Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 122 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 How can the following verses be reconciled? They appear contradictory. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." --Romans 3:20,28 (NIV) versus "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." --Romans 2:12,13 (NIV) I think that a way to reconcile this is to say that we are justified by both faith and good works.(James 2:24) Also what St. Paul was speaking of was the ritualistic laws of the Jews under the Old Covenant. This is exemplified at the beginning of Romans 3. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 How can the following verses be reconciled? They appear contradictory. "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.... For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." --Romans 3:20,28 (NIV) versus "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." --Romans 2:12,13 (NIV) They actually complement oneanotrher. The Roman's 3 passage states that the person of the Law was not to save, but rahter to teach people that they are sinful. Man is justified by Faith Romans 2 (if read in it's entirety) is speaking fo those who do not know God. This who do not know him will only be held accountable for what they know (indicating various levels of punishment) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 where do you get Faith Vs. Works out of this? "Faith Vs. Works" is a contradictory statement according to James 2. can't have faith vs. works because they work together. --- so what's the real question here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 where do you get Faith Vs. Works out of this? "Faith Vs. Works" is a contradictory statement according to James 2. can't have faith vs. works because they work together. --- so what's the real question here? Here is what I see, your above-interpretation notwithstanding. "...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law..." vs. "...it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 notice the difference though. there's no debate here. its simple... what is different in those two verses? "observing the law" and "obeying the law" those that just observe the law wont be righteous. i wont be swimming if i just stand at the side of the pool and think that im swimming. those that obey the law will be righteous. i will be swimming if i jump into the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 39 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 could you please not swear Lepaca? thanks. --- obviously the two mean different "observing" and "obeying" because the scriptures dont contradict themselves. they have totally different meanings alltogether. the pharisee's observed the law. paul obeyed the law. --- then comes the question: what is the purpose of the law? --- works without faith is vain. faith without works is dead. but its still faith. --- a swimming pool without water is still a swimming pool. it would hurt to try and swim in it though. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted July 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,244 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 63 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2006 I personally don't do good works to gain heaven, not by works of rightiousness, The only thing that i can give to go to Heaven is Me. there is nothing in the world that you can do or say in the sight of God to gain God's aproval to enter heaven but to Come as your are. God doesn't want your stuff, its all his anyways! Come as you are before God and he will come in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 where do you get Faith Vs. Works out of this? "Faith Vs. Works" is a contradictory statement according to James 2. can't have faith vs. works because they work together. --- so what's the real question here? Here is what I see, your above-interpretation notwithstanding. "...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law..." vs. "...it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous..." the problem is that you are avoiding the issue of context. As EricH pointed out, the two verses are addressing different issues, and that has to be taken into account. anyone take two verses and rip them out of away from their discussion and line them up and make the Bible appear to contradict. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Romans 2:12-13) If you follow the line the of thought, what Paul is doing in this epistle is he is addressing an imaginary Jewish audience in order to make a point to his Gentile readership. Paul is correcting the teachings of the Jewish leadership that Jewish pedigree in itself had salvific value and that merely hearing the law and engaging in mentall assent to its precepts was sufficient for salvation. Paul's point is that even IF justification were to come through the Law (which it doesn't), it would come though the doing of the law, and not the hearing of it. Paul teaches that no man can be saved by external privileges. So, then the other verses you quote: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28) Are really a continuation of the same line of thought. After establishing in chapter two that the Gentiles are not at a disadvantage due to not having the Torah, and that the external deference to the Torah by Jews does not bring them any advantage where salvation is concerned, Paul continues to make his case that justification for both Jews and Gentiles are the same. They must ALL be justified by faith. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Romans 3:9-18) Paul teaches that all men are equal in their guilt before God, all men are born into sin; likewise, all men find salvation the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvan3 Posted July 16, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 289 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 16, 2006 where do you get Faith Vs. Works out of this? "Faith Vs. Works" is a contradictory statement according to James 2. can't have faith vs. works because they work together. --- so what's the real question here? Here is what I see, your above-interpretation notwithstanding. "...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law..." vs. "...it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous..." the problem is that you are avoiding the issue of context. As EricH pointed out, the two verses are addressing different issues, and that has to be taken into account. anyone take two verses and rip them out of away from their discussion and line them up and make the Bible appear to contradict. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Romans 2:12-13) If you follow the line the of thought, what Paul is doing in this epistle is he is addressing an imaginary Jewish audience in order to make a point to his Gentile readership. Paul is correcting the teachings of the Jewish leadership that Jewish pedigree in itself had salvific value and that merely hearing the law and engaging in mentall assent to its precepts was sufficient for salvation. Paul's point is that even IF justification were to come through the Law (which it doesn't), it would come though the doing of the law, and not the hearing of it. Paul teaches that no man can be saved by external privileges. So, then the other verses you quote: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28) Are really a continuation of the same line of thought. After establishing in chapter two that the Gentiles are not at a disadvantage due to not having the Torah, and that the external deference to the Torah by Jews does not bring them any advantage where salvation is concerned, Paul continues to make his case that justification for both Jews and Gentiles are the same. They must ALL be justified by faith. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. (Romans 3:9-18) Paul teaches that all men are equal in their guilt before God, all men are born into sin; likewise, all men find salvation the same way. Miriam-Webster's definition of "observe" is: 1 : to conform one's action or practice to (as a law, rite, or condition) : comply with M-W's definition of "obey" is: 1 : to follow the commands or guidance of 2 : to conform to or comply with Therefore, we can reconstruct the verses to be: "...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by [complying with] the law..." vs. "...it is those who [comply with] the law who will be declared righteous..." This is a blatant contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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