Thaddaeus Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 corriee, Thaddaeus, Please don't take this as a smart answer, for I mean it from my heart.. "It is the set of my sail and not the gail' that determines which way I go. I try and stay constant with Jesus, when I fail He draws me back. I am more content now in my salvation that I have ever been. I have searched my life and my decision for Christ just to make sure that I am covered by the blood. There are times that I wonder or have a question about things, especially reading the questions people ask on these boards..lol... . I wondered about tongues,about fallen angles, about Enoch..(these just recently.) I read my Bible, but I also read with J Vernon McGee. He has been a true teacher to me for many years. His faith and love for Christ have been a comfort to me. I have told Jesus what a coward I am, and I pray I never go through awful persecution as some have, I wonder about that. Seeing my loved ones suffer, especially my grand children..You ask, and that is one area I pray for in my life. If I ever need it I trust that He will be sufficient for me. I commend you on your faith and a great testimony. But, just because you are being faithful, that you understand what it might mean does not preclude that all those that have believed, believe the same way. That they are as strong in their faith, that they might not falter. History, including examples in the Bible are just way to many to ignore the fact that the entire NT is mostly speaking of the effort man must do to stay faithful. We are saved through our faith, not by our unfaithfulness if that happens. We are not saved in spite of sin after having believed once upon a time. Christ saved you specifically so man, all men, could have the opportunity to do what God created man to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bx7 Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 168 pages of debate over OSAS, unbelievable. Tough doctrines are spiritually discerned. If your heart is not humbly seeking the knowledge of God, what hope do you have to ever understand the difficult things? People pray in vain. People worship in vain. People study doctrine in vain. Check yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Davies Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 The word "Works" causes a lot of dispute. Could you all tell me what your definition of what "Works" are as spoken in these verses - Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. What an outstanding question! It really focuses on the untenability of the "lose your salvation" veiw. I don't know if your question is retorical or not, but it is brilliant. The Eph 2 quote is referring to when we first come the cross. The process is described in Titus 3:5 and the perscription is Rom 10:9,10. At that time, we are born of the Spirit and receive a new spirit, the incorruptible seed described in I Peter 1:23. Incorruptible, as in can't be corrupted. The Phil. and James quotes talk about our responsiblity to walk in the newness of life after we receive the new spirit. I Cor. 3:11-15 exorts us to be carefull how we build on the foundation of Christ. Do we build with good works (gold, silver, precious stones) or dead works (wood, hay, and stuble). When God, Who is a consuming fire, comes to inhabit the dwelling we have prepared for him, what will remain? Will we receive rewards or suffer loss. No matter the result, the foundation remains. The relationship we cultvate with the Lord is in the soul realm. That is where rewards or losses are a reality. The new spirit, being incorruptible, is not lost by dead works. Only our eternal relationship with the Lord is effected. Our brothers who believe you can be lose your salvation have not understood that we are a triune being, body,soul and spirit, and what that means. Salvation begins in the spirit, is worked out in the soul, and eventually manifested in the body by the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8). We don't receive everthing at initial salvation or what is there to "work out"? If we don't receive everything, we don't lose everything if we commit dead works. I could go on but I'll stop here to see what response there is. God bless you Cardcaptor, excellent question. Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 One doesn't lose their salvation because of "dead works." One loses their salvation because of wilful sins, as has been discussed in Hebrews 10:26. The initial blood atonement only washes one clean of past sins, and unintentional sins committed after salvation. It does not automatically cover wilful transgressions, and no unclean thing will enter heaven. so why are you quoting "dead works" back in Post #1662 if it has nothing to do with lsoing salvation. if you messed up just say "i messed up." im not asking you to change your beliefs but if youre going to talk scripture with me against what i believe then you have to come correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 All it is saying in James is that if a person claims to have faith, but no works follow, they are only deceiving themselves, they are not a Christian. That being said, you were saying that it was wrong to teach a works based salvation, yet James states the need for one. If there is no works, we are not saved. There are a lot of "Christians" that believe that they can simply say they believe in Jesus, and even point to a conversion experience, yet they return back into a life of sin. The Bible states that such a person is deceived, and their faith is dead. it never said that person is never saved. please tell me that this isnt something you spread to your friends and family. If you go back a chapter it says this in 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. you do "work" for blessings. has nothing to do with losing and getting salvation. atheists do work. non-Christians do work. Salvation isnt even a topic. youve already been saved. you show you faith by helping others then youre paid back by blessings. "dead faith" is YOU not "working" productively within the body of Christ. my oh my how people dismiss grace and are on the verge to save themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JCEmmanuel Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Greetings in the Precious name of our Lord and Savior JESUS the Christ Emmanuel Once saved always saved - never in a million years Everyday we have to work harder at our faith, because a new day brings new challengers, and new ways that we experience the grace of our Savior JESUS. Everyday our faith is tested, and not everyone makes it. Even Moses asked father God to remove his name from the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 All it is saying in James is that if a person claims to have faith, but no works follow, they are only deceiving themselves, they are not a Christian. That being said, you were saying that it was wrong to teach a works based salvation, yet James states the need for one. If there is no works, we are not saved. There are a lot of "Christians" that believe that they can simply say they believe in Jesus, and even point to a conversion experience, yet they return back into a life of sin. The Bible states that such a person is deceived, and their faith is dead. it never said that person is never saved. please tell me that this isnt something you spread to your friends and family. If you go back a chapter it says this in 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. you do "work" for blessings. has nothing to do with losing and getting salvation. atheists do work. non-Christians do work. Salvation isnt even a topic. youve already been saved. you show you faith by helping others then youre paid back by blessings. "dead faith" is YOU not "working" productively within the body of Christ. my oh my how people dismiss grace and are on the verge to save themselves. Exrockstar, I wrote a whole post refuting the OSAS doctrine, and that is the best you can do? You fail to explain how one can make it to heaven while committing sins the Bible says will keep one from inheriting the Kingdom of heaven. You have nothing to say about the fact that the blood covering won't automatically cover wilful sins, as is taught in Hebrews. AGAIN, James 1:25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein and continueth therein you continue to get blessing and get rewards. If someone backslides they will lose rewards, not get blessings and receive chastisement. you can work away all you want but dont slip away from grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddaeus Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 exrockstar, you do "work" for blessings. has nothing to do with losing and getting salvation. We have gone over this again and again. You seem to have some wholly different concept of one's salvation per the offer that Christ brings to each human being. The offeri is to come to Him, to believe, to accept Him. We do that by an active decision of repentance. We enter into His Kingdom to be healed, to be made in the likeness of Christ. We put on Christ. We can leave that relationship at any time. It has absolutely nothing to do with the work of Christ on the Cross. When we enter into His Kingdom, there are many obligations, conditions that we must meet IF WE EXPECT TO RECEIVE THE INHERITANCE. We may possess it in this life, but we are in no shape guaranteed the inheritance without being faithful to the mutual agreement we made when we entered that relationship. You constantly speak of rewards, the reward is life eternal with Christ. If you do not have Christ, all the rewards are pointless. We are saved through faith. Study the word faith. It is synonomous with works in the NT. You need both faith and works. Either one of them alone is dead, moot, meaningless. One, the works is evidence of the faith. The faith produces works. If you have not works, you don't have faith either. Salvation is through faith. So, when the Bible speaks of losing faith or becoming unfaithful, that person has just reneged on HIS promise to Christ that he would be faithful. Repentance is the ONLY way one can return, can be reconciled to Christ. Sin will separate you from God. It always has and always will. Believers are no exception as they can become unbelievers. You have given not a single text that refutes that we are not saved through our faith. If you find even a hint of one, you could start a premise that we cannot lose our "salvation". It is really a misnomer, since we don't have it, thus cannot lose it. We need to make sure we keep it, remain faithful so that we can inherit the full promise in the end. II Pet 1:4-5. my oh my how people dismiss grace and are on the verge to save themselves. This is a statement that really shows that you do not understand the whole plan of salvation from the beginning. You do not understand the purpose of man's existance which is what we were restored to as a result of the Work of Christ on the Cross for all of mankind. The fall, death and sin, precluded man fulfilling the purpose of our being created. Christ's purpose was not to substitute for you what you were created to do. He substituted for you what you cannot do, namely give yourself life and atone for your own sins. But working with Him is the whole purpose of why we exist. God did not change the purpose of man living on this earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddaeus Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 375 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 exrockstar, If someone backslides they will lose rewards, not get blessings and receive chastisement. you can work away all you want but dont slip away from grace. the reward is Christ. So, does that mean you don't need Christ to be saved? Grace is a non-factor. All men recieve His Grace. All of mankind was saved from the fall. God will give you all the Grace you need to be conformed to His Image, but WHEN WE DECIDE TO LEAVE, God DOES NOT continue to bestow upon you, if you want to call it, His saving Grace, to those who have rejected Him. He does not cast His pearls to swine. Sin cannot remain in your life, it is a sign of being unfaithful. Unfaithfull does not save, only through faith saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted August 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2007 exrockstar, If someone backslides they will lose rewards, not get blessings and receive chastisement. you can work away all you want but dont slip away from grace. the reward is Christ. So, does that mean you don't need Christ to be saved? Grace is a non-factor. All men recieve His Grace. All of mankind was saved from the fall. God will give you all the Grace you need to be conformed to His Image, but WHEN WE DECIDE TO LEAVE, God DOES NOT continue to bestow upon you, if you want to call it, His saving Grace, to those who have rejected Him. He does not cast His pearls to swine. Sin cannot remain in your life, it is a sign of being unfaithful. Unfaithfull does not save, only through faith saves. the reward is Christ? my oh my....there are plenty of non-Christians that do better works that will receive the reward of Christ before you then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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