apothanein kerdos Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 Much of the historical text of the Qu'ran can be found in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible This simply proves further you haven't studied the religion at all. Have you still failed to compare the first two centuries of Christianity to the first two centuries of Islam? With an added benefit, compare Jesus and Muhammad. After studying their origins, I dare you to tell me they are peaceful as a religion. Yeah I just mentioned this in my previous post, I have been busy with work and school, but I am almost done with the compilation of both. The first 200 years or so of Christianity was more of its creation stage, and christians were persocuted in this time period. Islam is definitly more violent in this time period, but it also dealt with a violent split between the sects. I am not going to base my entire viewpoint off of the first two centuries of the religion, I am dealing with all the violent acts I can find from their creation to today, or as close as I can get. I'll post my findings after I get back from class. In the meantime here is some info on the similarities: http://www.answers.com/topic/similarities-...-and-the-qur-an http://www.icon.fi/~erkkik/quran.html http://eprints.hec.gov.pk/724/01/508.html.htm No, you HAVE to judge a religion on its founder and first few centuries. The reason is that it shows if the believers are justified if they act in violence. Did the Early Church act in violence to its persecution? Absolutely not, and even spoke out against violence. Therefore, when we see violence spring forth from the "Church" (which was nothing more than a sacral system), it is contrary to the original teachings. Islam, however, is much different. It is inherently violent, invading Spain in 711AD whilst eradicating the Visit Goths in that area, sacking and destroying the entire Middle East in the name of their prophet (something their prophet commanded them to do). Thus, when we see Islam act out in violence later, it is justifiable considering their foundations. Likewise, don't even try to use the Crusades. The Crusade of 1066, though horrible and should not have occurred, was still a response to the Muslim persecution of pilgrims and invasion of Europe (specifically France). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 And at this point you've lost all legitimacy. From the Constantine sacral system to the modern day, anything done by "Christian" Europe cannot be counted against Christianity as a religion. Oh darn for you. How so? What makes christianity exempt based on your definition of religious conflict? The Constantinian reform brought about a sacral system - this means the Church was adopted to be used by the state for its own purposes. It lost its Christian identity at that point, and the identity had to be passed on to people now called the "Stepchildren of the Reformation", such as the Donatist, Poor men of Lyons, Anna-baptists, etc. Likewise, and this is probably the most obvious point, things done under the sacral system contradicted the Early Church's stance, and scriptures stance, on violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 Irregardless of what you say, Christian people do not go on mass murder rampages. You haven't a clue to what is going on in this country or around the world regarding islam as you have proven by what you have written; and people in America do have a right to know who is doing the killings, no matter how much you try to downplay it or compare it to Christianity; which is an outright lie. 1. "Irregardless" is not a word. 2. To claim that Christians do not go on mass murder rampages is just absurd and bigoted. For example, the infamous BTK Serial Killer, Dennis Rader, was a deacon in his Church. Andrea Yates who drowned her five children one by one in a bathtub was a fundamentalist Christian. In fact, there have been several cases over the last three decades of fundamentalist Christians murdering their entire families because they wanted to shield them from the morally corrupting influences of the modern world. Timothy McVeigh was a devout Roman Catholic and murdered 168 people when he blew up the Oklahoma City Federal Building in 1995. Serial Killer Robert Yates who was convicted of murdering 15 people in Spokane, Washington, was a devout Christian. The vast majority of the over 6 million jews murdered during the holocaust were murdered under the direction of Christian men. Of the top 25 nations on earth with the highest murder rates, only two, Kyrgyzstan and seychelles, are Muslim countries. In the rest of them, Christianity is the predominant religion. The two nations with the lowest murder rates on earth, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, are both Muslim Nations. Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...ders-per-capita Of the top 25 nations on earth with the highest rape rates, in all of them, Christianity is the predominant religion. The four nations with the lowest rape rate on earth are all Muslim Nations. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_...apes-per-capita Muslims kill people and Christians kill people. Luke 6:41 "Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 2. To claim that Christians do not go on mass murder rampages is just absurd and bigotted. I don't think anyone is advocating that they don't (though one must question if this person was really right with God if they perform such an action). The difference between a Christian murdering someone, say, for their religion, is that it is forbidden to do this in the Bible. For a Muslim, however, it is commanded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 The two nations with the lowest murder rates on earth, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, are both Muslim Nations. I want to add that this is a misapplication of statistical use. Christians do not count as part of society in most Muslims countries, thus all rapes, thefts, murders, etc committed against Christians do not show up on statistical analysis. Also, even if you don't want to buy that, when you're totalitarian and autocratic you're less likely to have crime. The reason the so called "Christian nations" (as if though a government could be Christian) is because of democracy and the fact that we believe in human rights, thus when these rights are violated, it is reported as a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 Honestly, forrest, from all of your posting here, it's clear you haven't an idea of what a Bible believing Christian is, and your latest post just proves it all the more. Debating with a brick wall is useless!! I think you like to argue just for the sake of arguing, with no constructive input. You don't get it. Of course a decent and conscionable Christian would not go out murdering people. However, what you don't seem to get is a decent and conscionable Muslim does not going out murdering people either. Both Christians and Muslims have their share of nutjobs. The reason why you find debating these issues difficult with me is that frankly, you kind of come across and meanspirited, bigoted, and intolerant at times. It is something that frankly you ought to work on. My wife and I are friends with a couple where the husband is an Egyptian Immigrant and a Sunni Muslim. Oddly enough, he has never attempted to slaughter my family as infidels. In fact, he is a decent and conscionable person with the same sense of morals that a good Christian possesses. The Muslim world is undoubtably facing its share of problems and it has some pretty radical sects. Basically, the Muslim society today is in many ways in the same place the Christian society was a few hundred years ago. As Christians, most of us eventually got through it, became more tolerant, less violent, and moderated our beliefs. I am confident that given time the Muslim world will as well. However, painting them all with the broad brush of bigotry and intolerance that you paint them with is just wrong and it is unfortunate that you don't see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 2. To claim that Christians do not go on mass murder rampages is just absurd and bigotted. I don't think anyone is advocating that they don't (though one must question if this person was really right with God if they perform such an action). The difference between a Christian murdering someone, say, for their religion, is that it is forbidden to do this in the Bible. For a Muslim, however, it is commanded. Really? Deuteronomy 13:7-11 " If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery." Deuteronomy 13:13-19 "If, in any of the cities which the LORD, your God, gives you to dwell in, you hear it said that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known, you must inquire carefully into the matter and investigate it thoroughly. If you find that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in your midst, you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, dooming the city and all life that is in it, even its cattle, to the sword. Having heaped up all its spoils in the middle of its square, you shall burn the city with all its spoils as a whole burnt offering to the LORD, your God. Let it be a heap of ruins forever, never to be rebuilt. You shall not retain anything that is doomed, that the blazing wrath of the LORD may die down and he may show you mercy and in his mercy for you may multiply you as he promised your fathers on oath; because you have heeded the voice of the LORD, your God, keeping all his commandments which I enjoin on you today, doing what is right in his sight." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 I am confident that given time the Muslim world will as well. However, painting them all with the broad brush of bigotry and intolerance that you paint them with is just wrong and it is unfortunate that you don't see that. Don't get your confidence up. You obviously haven't read Ezekiel Chapters 38,39 which proves you wrong concerning the muslim world. No, I just shape the Bible around what the end times prophecy of the day is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 For your information, Ezekiel 38,39 concerns end time prophecy and the entire muslum world and Israel, and what is happening today, and will happen in the not so far off future. So, rather than falsely accuse myself and others here, it would be best to read God's Word first regarding the muslim world. And at what point in the last 2000 years have some Christians not wrapped their interpretations of Biblical Prophecy around the current events of their time? Yeah, forrest, I have heard this same ol' story from muslim sympathizers, unfortunately islam says God has no son; therefore he is antichrist. Being a decent, nice person does not gain a muslim eternal life. I am not saying that he will go to heaven for being a good person. I am saying that Christianity does not have a monopoly on decent and conscionable people. Do you believe it does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted February 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.20 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 14, 2007 2. To claim that Christians do not go on mass murder rampages is just absurd and bigotted. I don't think anyone is advocating that they don't (though one must question if this person was really right with God if they perform such an action). The difference between a Christian murdering someone, say, for their religion, is that it is forbidden to do this in the Bible. For a Muslim, however, it is commanded. Really? Deuteronomy 13:7-11 " If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the LORD, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery." Deuteronomy 13:13-19 "If, in any of the cities which the LORD, your God, gives you to dwell in, you hear it said that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known, you must inquire carefully into the matter and investigate it thoroughly. If you find that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in your midst, you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, dooming the city and all life that is in it, even its cattle, to the sword. Having heaped up all its spoils in the middle of its square, you shall burn the city with all its spoils as a whole burnt offering to the LORD, your God. Let it be a heap of ruins forever, never to be rebuilt. You shall not retain anything that is doomed, that the blazing wrath of the LORD may die down and he may show you mercy and in his mercy for you may multiply you as he promised your fathers on oath; because you have heeded the voice of the LORD, your God, keeping all his commandments which I enjoin on you today, doing what is right in his sight." Mate, it's common knowledge that these are and were meant for Israel for the following reasons: 1) To show God's judgment on man for turning away from Him 2) To allow Israel to live in the land peacefully 3) To show the seriousness that God wanted to keep Israel as His own More importantly, it's known that: 1) This was meant for Israel, at that time, and at no other time in history 2) That this law does not stand for Christians 3) That it was directly ordered by God In the Qu'ran, ALL followers, from the ancient times to the present day, are ordered to kill in the name of Islam. You're pulling at strings here for a religion you haven't studied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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