One God or many?

[Guest skidd2]

that is a consequence of making a choice to hate God and serve His enemy. it isn't God who wants us to go there. it's satan, who truly is evil and truly does hate us, that wants to lure us to spend an eternity burning, and our stubborn refusal to accept God's love that seals our fate.

If God knows we will sin, and he is the one who made us sin, why should we be sorry for being what he created? If Satan is a factor in this mess,and could cause even one of Gods children to make a bad choice, why not get rid of Satan? I know that these questions may seem petty, but in my mind they are the basis for faith.

[Guest LadyC]

God didn't make us sin, skidd. He gave us free will. He also commanded us NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge, which would make us aware of good and evil... we were never created with the intent to sin, we were created to have a pure and perfect relationship with God.

Satan caused us to sin, skidd. Satan, the most beautiful of all of God's angels, who became greedy and wanted to usurp God's authority. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels were banished from heaven. Lucifer, aka Satan, saw it as a prime opportunity to slither into God's perfect world and tempt Eve to eat of that tree, causing the first sin.

God had nothing to do with causing us to sin. As a result of Eve, and Adam's excercise of free will, the Word of God, Christ, was sent to pay the penalty for our sins. yes, He knew it would be necessary. but He is not responsible for our choices.

[Guest idolsmasher]

Well, I think the whole thing is about free will. God didn't make us sin, he allowed us the choice. I guess you could say that we chose the school of hard knocks but that's what it is, school. God is presenting us with the data to weigh and study and to come to the ultimate conclusion that His ways are best. The Old Testament law is referred to in scripture as the "schoolmaster" to bring us to a knowledge of our own unrighteousness. By choosing our own way over God's we are saying that we don't believe him and our ways are better, but when we realize our own ways are short of the righteousness of God, then we put ourselves in a position to surrender to His will. Realising man's weakness, God brought about the messiah at the appointed time to make a way for us through realising our state and need for God and a saviour and surrendering to him to receive forgiveness and thereby righteousness through Christ. Christ is significant in that He did what no other person was capable of doing and that is live and die without sin. He was never seperated from God through sin and therefore returned to the Father after death through resurrection. Christ is the victory over sin and "the way", the resurrection from the dead. Christ won that battle that we could not. This showed us that what was impossible for us, only God could accomplish and our only salvation is to believe in and surrender to him. God wants us to do His will freely because we understand that it is good for us because God loves us and knows what's best for us. By the way, if we had not had choice and experienced sin and it's effects, would we have ever really known the difference? We would not have any frame of reference of good and evil and would be like mindless machines programmed for one mindset only. When you have experienced the depths of despair and sin, you appreciate much more the love of God than if you had never known the effects of sin. In this way, the lessons we learn through the fall help us to experience God in a much greater and more personal way, a way that makes us very thankful and appreciative of Him and more desirous to do His will, because we love Him and He loves us in spite of our sins and weaknesses. It's a learning process that mankind has to go through.

[Guest LadyC]

God is presenting us with the data to weigh and study and to come to the ultimate conclusion that His ways are best.

what a perfect way to put it.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Skidd2,

I believe Idolsmasher gave a good answer.

I seems that I must be stupid, I freely admit that I am on a quest for knowledge.  I can find no reason why Jesus needed pay a penalty for something that he/God/The Word did intentionally.  We were made to sin and Adam fulfilled that intent.  Now it appears that all that is needed to be saved is to believe.  If that is all that is needed, then why isn't a clear, no doubt about it visit from God just as good?  If he needed to prove that there is life after death, if that was the point, then a much more public appearance was needed.

The answers to your questions appear to be well answered in the responses I have seen so far. Have you read 1 Cor 15? You will find that there are two realms of existence. The one which contains the abode of God and the angels is the "spiritual realm". The creation is in the realm of the "natural". One day we shall enter into that "spiritual realm" - ALL GROWN UP IN CHRIST. We will no longer be "children", we shall be "mature" in all our thinking and in all our ways. We will recognize that the Lord our God is one and He was manifested to us in the person of Jesus Christ. All that we shall be we OWE to Jesus Christ. We will know beyond any shadow of a doubt WHO the One God is, and we will be eternally grateful for all He has done to draw us to Him.

At one time Satan was the highest angel in all God's creation. He is referred to as "the anointed cherub that covereth". He was the one to overshadow the mercy seat. BUT he got it into his head:

Ezekiel 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:

that he was really something and began thinking that he was just as great as God. It is PRIDE that caused his fall. Since that time, he has been out to corrupt and destroy God's creation. But God saw all this in eternity past and He has used Satan literally to drive man to his knees in humble servitude to the One True Living God.

May I suggest that before you ask any more questions that you give the Bible a good read. It is apparent that you need to get to know Christ on a personal basis, and that is KNOWING the Living Word of God.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest skidd2]

God didn't make us sin, skidd. He gave us free will. He also commanded us NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge, which would make us aware of good and evil... we were never created with the intent to sin, we were created to have a pure and perfect relationship with God.

Satan caused us to sin, skidd. Satan, the most beautiful of all of God's angels, who became greedy and wanted to usurp God's authority. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels were banished from heaven. Lucifer, aka Satan, saw it as a prime opportunity to slither into God's perfect world and tempt Eve to eat of that tree, causing the first sin.

God had nothing to do with causing us to sin. As a result of Eve, and Adam's excercise of free will, the Word of God, Christ, was sent to pay the penalty for our sins. yes, He knew it would be necessary. but He is not responsible for our choices.

Your answer fails to fit what I have been told about God, that he knows everything, past, present, and future. Are you suggesting that God did not know Satan's plan?

Secondly, if man can not trust the word of an angel, (Satan is a fallen angel), then why are angels used to communicate the word of God? Clearly Adam and Eve were tricked by Satan, no question. They did not know evil(no apple yet), and as such were like little children in believing what they were told by the "grownups". To believe that Satan could lie, or otherwise go against the will of God, would require a knowledge of evil. Since it was impossible for them to not to believe whatever Satan said, their actions would be predictable.

So I have to believe that Adam's sinning was by design, or I have to believe that God doesn't see the future as well as claimed.

[Guest skidd2]

Realising man's weakness, God brought about the messiah at the appointed time to make a way for us through realising our state and need for God and a saviour and surrendering to him to receive forgiveness and thereby righteousness through Christ.

Your statement would appear to support the "God made man to sin" concept. Man's weakness is God given, we were made this way. Adding Christ to fix the problem is either part of the original plan, or an admission that the original plan wasn't working (see floods, tower of Babel, etc.) and needed further adjustments.

You see, the concept that it's all man's fault only serves to protect the idea of a perfect God. It has to be 100% man's doing 100% of the time or you are left with a less than perfect creator. Caring this further, if the creator is perfect, then his actions, plans, creations would also be perfect in as much as they turned out the way they were intended. Man's sinning is by design so that we would have to ask God for forgiveness. God created a situation whereby we could not exist without his grace.

As you may have guessed, I don't buy into the free will idea. To infer that someone has a choice is an indication that there is at least two ways to achieve a goal. If only one option will achieve the goal then there is no choice with regard to that specific goal. If man can ONLY be saved by Christ, then there is no other option for salvation. This is then not a matter of free will with regard salvation, we must submit or perish. Why perish? Becaused man sinned and must be saved.

What would have happened if Adam and Eve had not eaten the apple? I sure don't know, but I can strongly suggest that we would all live in a heavenly garden, hanging out with God. Mind you, we wouldn't really need much from him, as the garden provides us with all we need. One of the worst feelings is to not be needed.....

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Skidd2,

Secondly, if man can not trust the word of an angel, (Satan is a fallen angel), then why are angels used to communicate the word of God? Clearly Adam and Eve were tricked by Satan, no question. They did not know evil(no apple yet), and as such were like little children in believing what they were told by the "grownups". To believe that Satan could lie, or otherwise go against the will of God, would require a knowledge of evil. Since it was impossible for them to not to believe whatever Satan said, their actions would be predictable.

So I have to believe that Adam's sinning was by design, or I have to believe that God doesn't see the future as well as claimed.

If you KNEW the Word of God, then you would also know that God has a PERFECT "will", and a PERMISSIVE "will". His PERFECT "will" is that "none should perish, but that all would be saved":

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

His PERMISSIVE "will" is pretty clearly defined here:

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

These reflect the "choice" or "will" of those to whom God has extended His hand of salvation through Jesus Christ.

You seem to think that God is the author of "sin". HE IS NOT:

James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Now don't you think that Adam had learned the difference between WHO God is and WHAT God said as opposed to WHO the serpent was and WHAT he said? God had told Adam "In the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you shall die." Satan comes along and says "surely, you shall NOT die." Now, if your father told you NOT to do something, and your friend comes along and says "Hey let's do such and such (exactly opposite of what your Father has told you)", then where does the responsibility of "sin/evil" lie?

Adam and Eve spent many years in the Garden before eating the forbidden fruit. Why do I know this? First God had to teach him how to garden. Then He gave Adam the chore of naming all the animals. Adam also is said to have "walked with the voice of God in the Garden" (which interpreted means that he spent quite a bit of time in the Garden talking with God). It wasn't till Adam had "learned" a whole lot from God BEFORE commiting his sin. That sure doesn't sound like a "child being duped by an angel", which by the way appeared as a "serpent". If you KNEW the scriptures, you would know that God does not allow HIS angels to so deceptively approach man.

So now, please tell us WHO you are? Have you accepted Christ as your Savior? Have you read the Bible? Are you asking questions you think will trip us up? Or are you sincere in desiring to KNOW the truth? If the latter, again I suggest that before you continue to draw false conclusions, please read the BIBLE! Up to this time, I have tried to respond to you in a civil manner, even though your questions tend to peeve me a bit. To me, they reveal your ignorance of the Word, to which you have already attested. You have the answers you have sought and you now KNOW the solution and resolution to your problem of ignorance. Please take my advice and STUDY THE WORD OF GOD.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest skidd2]

Greetings Skidd2,

Secondly, if man can not trust the word of an angel, (Satan is a fallen angel), then why are angels used to communicate the word of God? Clearly Adam and Eve were tricked by Satan, no question. They did not know evil(no apple yet), and as such were like little children in believing what they were told by the "grownups". To believe that Satan could lie, or otherwise go against the will of God, would require a knowledge of evil. Since it was impossible for them to not to believe whatever Satan said, their actions would be predictable.

So I have to believe that Adam's sinning was by design, or I have to believe that God doesn't see the future as well as claimed.

If you KNEW the Word of God, then you would also know that God has a PERFECT "will", and a PERMISSIVE "will". His PERFECT "will" is that "none should perish, but that all would be saved":

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

His PERMISSIVE "will" is pretty clearly defined here:

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

These reflect the "choice" or "will" of those to whom God has extended His hand of salvation through Jesus Christ.

You seem to think that God is the author of "sin". HE IS NOT:

James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Now don't you think that Adam had learned the difference between WHO God is and WHAT God said as opposed to WHO the serpent was and WHAT he said? God had told Adam "In the day that you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you shall die." Satan comes along and says "surely, you shall NOT die." Now, if your father told you NOT to do something, and your friend comes along and says "Hey let's do such and such (exactly opposite of what your Father has told you)", then where does the responsibility of "sin/evil" lie?

Adam and Eve spent many years in the Garden before eating the forbidden fruit. Why do I know this? First God had to teach him how to garden. Then He gave Adam the chore of naming all the animals. Adam also is said to have "walked with the voice of God in the Garden" (which interpreted means that he spent quite a bit of time in the Garden talking with God). It wasn't till Adam had "learned" a whole lot from God BEFORE commiting his sin. That sure doesn't sound like a "child being duped by an angel", which by the way appeared as a "serpent". If you KNEW the scriptures, you would know that God does not allow HIS angels to so deceptively approach man.

So now, please tell us WHO you are? Have you accepted Christ as your Savior? Have you read the Bible? Are you asking questions you think will trip us up? Or are you sincere in desiring to KNOW the truth? If the latter, again I suggest that before you continue to draw false conclusions, please read the BIBLE! Up to this time, I have tried to respond to you in a civil manner, even though your questions tend to peeve me a bit. To me, they reveal your ignorance of the Word, to which you have already attested. You have the answers you have sought and you now KNOW the solution and resolution to your problem of ignorance. Please take my advice and STUDY THE WORD OF GOD.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

I am sorry if my questions upset you, I believe that they are valid. So for the sake of peace, I will ask simple straight forward questions.

1) Did God know that Satan would trick Adam and Eve?

2) How could Adam know of Evil BEFORE he ate the apple?

3) Why would God put the tree of knowledge in the garden?

4) If God knew the future and saw the sins of man, was he powerless to stop it?

I do not doubt that the verses you quoted clearly detail how a person is to be saved and what happens if they are not. My question deals more with why such a process is needed.

One last thing and then I promise to be quiet. Regarding free will, if I understand you correctly, we are given a choice to either accept the gift of salvation or not You are correct in defining that as a choice, but if my goal was not to burn in hell, what are my choices??

Thank you for your imput,

Skidd2

Baptized on 1/12/03

[Guest LadyC]

God didn't make us sin, skidd. He gave us free will. He also commanded us NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge, which would make us aware of good and evil...  we were never created with the intent to sin, we were created to have a pure and perfect relationship with God.

Satan caused us to sin, skidd. Satan, the most beautiful of all of God's angels, who became greedy and wanted to usurp God's authority. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels were banished from heaven. Lucifer, aka Satan, saw it as a prime opportunity to slither into God's perfect world and tempt Eve to eat of that tree, causing the first sin.

God had nothing to do with causing us to sin. As a result of Eve, and Adam's excercise of free will, the Word of God, Christ, was sent to pay the penalty for our sins. yes, He knew it would be necessary. but He is not responsible for our choices.

Your answer fails to fit what I have been told about God, that he knows everything, past, present, and future. Are you suggesting that God did not know Satan's plan?

Secondly, if man can not trust the word of an angel, (Satan is a fallen angel), then why are angels used to communicate the word of God? Clearly Adam and Eve were tricked by Satan, no question. They did not know evil(no apple yet), and as such were like little children in believing what they were told by the "grownups". To believe that Satan could lie, or otherwise go against the will of God, would require a knowledge of evil. Since it was impossible for them to not to believe whatever Satan said, their actions would be predictable.

So I have to believe that Adam's sinning was by design, or I have to believe that God doesn't see the future as well as claimed.

perhaps you haven't been told wrong, perhaps in your skepticism, you've failed to understand what you've been rightly told... as is the case on this board.

God knows past, present and future. i have not said otherwise. God only kicked out the angels who aligned themselves with lucifer. this is the entire basis for the continual battle within the supernatural realm. satan is still trying to out-do God. of course satan is going to use lies to further his agenda. and of course the angels of heaven, the Lord's host of angels, are going to be trustworthy. it's up to us to descern whether we are being influenced by evil or righteousness, and God, in the Bible, makes it clear how we are to do that.

by the way, adam and eve had never had communication with any angel prior to the apple incident. they'd communicated directly with God. God had warned them not to eat from that tree. that should have been enough. did God know eve would listen to the snake? i'm positive He did. but He didn't design it to happen that way. He gave satan dominion over this earth and its inhabitants. He knew satan would mess with our minds. He gave us the freedom to make up our own minds, regardless of how predictable it would be, and He knew that He would ultimately win the war between good and evil.

knowing the outcome does not equal designing us for the purpose of sin.

skidd, i'm not so sure you are earnestly seeking the truth and understanding you claim to be. you are too bent on disputing everything. i will pray that God softens your heart to recieve the truth, but i will not continue to try and debate this with you. the unsaved can't understand things of the spiritual realm because physical science is not applicable.