Baptism?

[Guest shiloh357]

Right everyone, and obviously belief is all we need. I mean, we're all brothers in Christ with the demon Legion who possessed a man and then ran into a herd of pigs. Legion CERTAINLY believed that Jesus was the real Son of God, and so can't wait to see ol' Legion in heaven right? I mean James 2:19 would agree, demons believe in God. And that's all faith is, right? Belief? That's it? Yepp, I'ma see them demons in heaven...

No.

1 John 2:3

QUOTE 

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Yeah, so obedience isn't necessary to be in a relationship with the Lord, right? Isn't that what that verse says?

No.

Hebrews 3:16-19

QUOTE 

Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were unable to enter, because of their unbelief.

Right, so this verse tells us that the Israelites were frowned upon only because of their unbelief. I mean.. it also says obedience... but it says belief too! So which is it? They are both said to have not let the Israelites enter? Was it because of disobedience or because of unbelief?

Both. They are equally tied together in faith. Faith is believing in God, but faith is known because of obedience to God's commands. Not obeying the word of God deadens faith, nullifying salvation.

One more time:

QUOTE 

Again I state, there is one baptism. If so, then why were people in the Bible baptized in water?

You are completely confusing the issue now.

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Your hermeneutics are lacking here. You are creating a false division between different kinds of works. No such distinctions are made in Scripture. You just grab a verse from part of Scripture and a verse from another part, and then butcher them in interpretation. Works are physical acts. Works do not add to salvation in anyway. Just as Abraham did not have to circumcised to be made righteous, we do not need to be immersed in water to enter heaven.

John 6

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is (1) the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He (2) has sent."

John 6 mentions believing as a work. We have to actually do something to accept this salvation. We don

[Guest shiloh357]

John 6

28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"

29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is (1) the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He (2) has sent."

John 6 mentions believing as a work. We have to actually do something to accept this salvation. We don

[Nebuchadnezza10]

Rom 10

10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Confession is apart of salvation.

These are acts done to accept salvation. They are done because you love God and want to please him and obey him. By obeying God and pleasing him he will give you salvation.

His point is that believing in God is not good enough. Only the faith that saves will produce good works. The demons assent to the knowledge that God is exists. That is not faith. Anyone who merely believes in God does not possess faith in Him.

James point is that our works justify us in the sight of men so that they can see that our faith is genuine. It is not saying that we need works to add to our faith in order to be saved.

You have contradicted yourself.

Only the faith that saves will produce good works.

So this faith saves you. I agree

Then you go onto say that it does not save.

James point is that our works justify us in the sight of men so that they can see that our faith is genuine. It is not saying that we need works to add to our faith in order to be saved.

And as for baptism.

Baptism occurs before one is immersed in water.

How can you be baptised before water immersion?

Acts 2

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Here the people were baptised and then they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Not baptised with the Holy Spirit.

Also the Ethiopian Eunuch: It was physical.

Acts 8

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they travelled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[6] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Baptism is a physical act that we are commanded to do. It is symbolic if dying to sin and rising up so that we may have a new life with Christ in heaven

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[1] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

How do you explain these verses with regards to baptism only being a spiritual thing. I understand that it symbolises a spiritual thing but it is still a physical act.

In addition, the word baptism comes from the Greek word, (baptizw)=baptizo.

From a derivative of baptw - bapto ; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.You can check this on the Strong Greek dictionary web site:

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK9.htm#S907

[Guest shiloh357]

Rom 10

10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Confession is apart of salvation.

These are acts done to accept salvation. They are done because you love God and want to please him and obey him. By obeying God and pleasing him he will give you salvation.

Actually coffession is made unto (testifies to) salvation. That is what the verse is saying. That "translation" is a bit off.

QUOTE

His point is that believing in God is not good enough. Only the faith that saves will produce good works. The demons assent to the knowledge that God is exists. That is not faith. Anyone who merely believes in God does not possess faith in Him.

James point is that our works justify us in the sight of men so that they can see that our faith is genuine. It is not saying that we need works to add to our faith in order to be saved.

You have contradicted yourself.

QUOTE

Only the faith that saves will produce good works.

So this faith saves you. I agree

Then you go onto say that it does not save.

QUOTE

James point is that our works justify us in the sight of men so that they can see that our faith is genuine. It is not saying that we need works to add to our faith in order to be saved.

No, contradiction. You are misunderstanding James. No I did not say that faith does not save. It is the works that demonstrate faith that have not possess saving power. You need to read a little slower and pay better attention. Genunie faith will produce godly works. These works are a testimony to sinners that our faith is genuine. That is all that James is saying. Simply believing in God does not produce those works, and is not faith at all, but rather an acknowledgement that God exists. James is teaching on the importance of demonstrating our faith to a lost world so that they can see that our faith, and thus Christ is real.

[Guest tiggr]

No I did not misqoute you i took it staight from your post. I prefer what God has to say over hermeneutics i never met him and he isnt in the Bible.

[Guest tiggr]

Also you never showed me wher it says in the Bible to accept Jesus Christ into your heart and you shall be saved. Maybe because it's not in the Bible, what does "herman" have to say about it?

By the way who invented hermenuetics? wasnt it a man ? The Bible knows how to handle that

1 Cor 2:12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

KJV

2 Cor 13:1

13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.KJV

2 Tim 2:15-16

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

KJV

2 Tim 3:5-7

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

KJV

[Guest yod]

shilo...

do you have kids? It's useless to argue with a teenager

[Guest Calamity]

Right everyone, and obviously belief is all we need. I mean, we're all brothers in Christ with the demon Legion who possessed a man and then ran into a herd of pigs. Legion CERTAINLY believed that Jesus was the real Son of God, and so can't wait to see ol' Legion in heaven right? I mean James 2:19 would agree, demons believe in God. And that's all faith is, right? Belief? That's it? Yepp, I'ma see them demons in heaven...

No, don't think you'll be seeing any demons in heaven. Salvation is for man, not demons or angels - fallen or otherwise.

1Pet.1

[12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Matt.4

[19] And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Eph.4

[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

1Tim.2

[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Rom.5

[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

And, besides, faith is:

Heb.11

[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Do you really think the fallen angels or demons have never seen Christ? They were once in heaven, remember. They have no need for faith.

[Guest tiggr]

shilo...

do you have kids? It's useless to argue with a teenager

Once again when someone can not refute the evidence placed before them they resort to name calling and ridiculing, you people ( i use this term in general) do not show much of a christian attitude, if you feel so strongly about what you believe and that I am a " pharisees" then it would seem that you would be a little more compassionate toward people who dont agree with you instead of resorting to the tactics that you have used. I am in no way avoiding any topics but bringing to light that your true " christianity " is showing even though I am most likely hundreds of miles away.

Matt 7:15-24

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

KJV

You have read the words of Christ yet you wish to disagree with them, I have not shown you the Word of God according to me, but just what the Bible says and more specificaly what Jesus himself said. You use the wisdom of man to show you the way and ridicule those who do not agree with you. You have shown your fruit.

I will no longer take part in this discussion, continue with your hermenuetics