Baptism?

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[1ptr29citizen]

QUOTE 

And Romans 10 DOES tell us that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. However, that verse says nothing about belief. Isn't that odd?

No, it is not odd, because it occurs within a chapter whose context has to do with the Jews recieving salvation by faith. So "belief" is assumed in the act of calling out to the Lord.

So, is it possible that if belief is assumed in the act of calling out to the Lord, that baptism is also assumed in the act of calling out to the Lord? Is that possible, considering that they are side-by-side in Acts 22:16?

I am of course not saying that Noah was saved by water, but because of water. Consider this: The dividing line between those in the flood was water. You either lived BECAUSE OF water, or you died BECAUSE OF water. That flood, that watery dividing line, SYMBOLIZES something extremely that we have today. Baptism. The dividing line between those who are saved and those who will die is water (assuming belief, repentance, and confession have already happened based on other verses where they are commanded). With a physical, watery line of baptism dividing us, we will either be saved BECAUSE OF water, or we will die BECAUSE OF water. Water isn't just for taking baths, water is for pledging a good conscience to God. Baptism saves us THROUGH, and BECAUSE OF the resurrection of Christ. The only baptism that can save us is one through the resurrection of Christ (nullifying the arguments that the thief on the cross, Jesus, and many others were not saved by baptism, because there was not yet a baptism through the resurrection of Jesus). If you think I made all that stuff up, then you're wrong, because I got it straight from 1 Peter 3 towards the end of the chapter. Try to put it all in context, try to look at it without making a contortion, or trying to conform it to a certain belief. What is the straight-forward meaning of that passage? If you answered something to the effect of: "Baptism doesn't save," read it again, because that is just the opposite of what Peter is telling us.

Mark 16:16 tells us works don't save? Well no it doesn't say that, but Ephesians 2:8-9 does. So according to Mark 16:16 belief and baptism save us. According to Ephesians 2:8-9, works DO NOT save us. So are they contradicting each other, or does that mean that we just have to accept baptism isn't a work?

[1ptr29citizen]

In my earlier post I said that he did not have access to a baptismal. Not that he was waiting on purpose, but that the option was available to him due to his circumstances. So, the question remains is a person going to Hell if he dies even though he believes the gospel, and confessees his sins, and repents? What if he does not have access to an immediate body of water?

Why on earth would he not have access to a body of water? Mission trips to Honduras have filled up barrels and baptized believers in that. There is a body of water nearly everywhere around, is there not? And I'M not going to say that a person who believes, repents, and confesses, but is not baptized and then later dies before he could be baptized will go to hell. All we have to judge us on judgement day is the word (John 12:47-50). The word tells us baptism is part of salvation, so that's that. I'm not going to judge others for it, but the word will.

[Ovedya]

Let's say you believe in baptismal salvation. Now, let's say that you preached the gospel to a person sitting next to you on an airplane, and this person received the Lord. But moments later there was an engine failure on the plane and it began plummeting toward earth at several hundreds of miles per hour.....do you pray that you hit a body of water?

[1ptr29citizen]

Once I again I say, there are certain things that a man cannot answer about salvation. We are all capable human beings (if we have the time and ability to type things on the internet), and we are quite capable of obeying salvation by being baptized, as it is a part of salvation, which is revealed by many scriptures. So like I mentioned in my last post, the word is the judge. We all have the word, can know and comprehend it, and are capable of being baptized. I understand that some people may NOT be able to, health conditions or dumb luck may fall in the way (even though those are RARE chances), and in those cases, only God will know where they go. Maybe if someone intended with all of their heart to be baptized for a re-birth as soon as they got off that plane, God would see that in their heart, and he would save that man. Maybe not. Who shall be saved will be determined by the very one who set the word, the Lord God Almighty. If we can see that baptism is necessary, and we have believed, repented, are willing to confess from being unashamed of the gospel, we call on the name of the Lord in all that we do, then we should "Arise and be baptized, washing our sins away, calling on the name of the Lord," according to Acts 22:16. As far as I know of, there is nothing stopping anyone on this forum from obeying that message, and so it should be done through Christ for forgiveness and to become a child of God. If there is someone out there, who just canNOT be baptized, which will be rare (but possible), then it is all up to God. We who are capable shouldn't try and hang ourselves over "big if" questions though, we should bring ourselves to God.

[Ovedya]

Hmmm...inteesting. God is not a "special provisions" type of Person, though. He gives no special preference (ie. no respector of persons). I think the Bible is clear that faith is the essential factor of salvation as a whole. But it does not diminish or negate the need to be baptized. Baptism does not in and of itself impart eternal life to the believer. But it does make the final and absolute declaration of repentance.

[WayneB]

This discussion reminds me of my baptism some years ago. A few weeks after I was baptized, we visited my wife's family in Louisiana. My sister-in-law, my wife's brother's wife, was raised in an U.P.C. environment. My wife and I shared with our family that both of us were baptized a few weeks prior and how excited we were in the Lord. My sister-in law spoke up and asked us how we were baptized. I was a little confused but answered "by immersion". "No" she replied, "that's not what I mean". She asked what words were used. I informed her that we were baptized as Jesus told us to be baptized...in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. She then informed us that we better do it over "just to be safe" because it doesn't count unless it is the name of Jesus.

Baptism is an act

[1ptr29citizen]

Oh, by no means don't misinterpret my meaning! Of course baptism in and of itself will not save, to say that would be to blaspheme and disreguard Christ and the message of the gospel. Without a belief in the Son of God, you will not be saved (Mark 16:16 tells us to believe). Without repenting (Acts 3:19) and turning to God, we will not be saved. If we are ashamed of the gospel, and will not confess "Jesus is Lord," (Romans 10:9-10), then Christ surely will not confess our names to the Father! If we are not baptized through Jesus' resurrection for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), then we are not clothed in Christ (Galatians 3:26-27), and Christ will not stand for us on the day of judgement. Each commandment we have for salvation is equally important as the other. But they are ALL commandments, and must ALL be accepted. As to faith, loving and believing enough to obey God is faith. God commands us to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. Isn't faith doing them all?

Here's an explanation I really like:

Opposing all falsehood, he apostle Paul commands us to "stand firm in the faith" (1 Corinthians 16:23). We have already established [this was earlier on in the book] that "the faith" is more than personal belief. "Faith," as it is expressed here, represents the embodiment of God's revealed word, which is found in the Bible. When Paul says, "Stand firm in the faith," he means, "Be convicted of the truth revealed to you by God." Do I Have To Make A Stand? By: Drew Kizer

[1ptr29citizen]

Saved by grace, please look at this verse though:

Galatians 6:15 "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what matters is a new creation."

Now I ask you, how do we become new creations? Can an old creation instantly become a new creation? Or must we be reborn, (John 3) or resurrected (Romans 6), into that new life, that new creation?

Also, no one has said anything in your defense that Mark 16:16 tells us that baptism saves. Are we agreeing on that verse or have you just not read my posts about it? Just wondering (and please read my posts before you post about Mark 16:16, so I don't have to say the same thing over yet again).

[WayneB]

Is an uncircumcised Jew still a Jew? Yes! Whether or not he is accepted by his people is another matter but he is still of Jewish ancestry.

Is a born again believer who has not been physically baptized in water saved? Yes, because it is the Holy Spirit who changes him and makes him a heir of God and a co-heir with Christ. [Romans 8:16,17]

Don't get me wrong. Baptism is an important sacrament just as the Eucharist is as well. But neither is a requirement for salvation. They are expressions of obedience.

Blessings,

Wayne

Postscript --- I missed your recent post regarding Mark 16:16. It is the Holy Spirit that does the inward work of baptism that results in the new man... not the water. Give me the Living Water (Holy Spirit) everytime brother!