Baptism?

[1ptr29citizen]

Now, Saved by Grace, don't get me wrong, it's not just a rebirth in water, but also one in Spirit. When we are baptized, we recieve the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.'"

When is it that we will recieve the Holy Spirit according to this passage (even though I know I'm opening up a huge can-of-worms about it from Acts 8, and Acts 10, but that's ok). When we repent AND ARE baptized then we shall be given the Holy Spirit.

Now look at this:

Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."

It seems as though this verse says that we are given the Holy Spirit when we believe what we hear about the gospel. Now, how can that be so, considering Acts 2:38 told us we got the Holy Spirit when we repented and were baptized. Contradictory? No... belief is being categorized with repentance and baptism, because, those back then who believed, were then repentant. And those who were repentant, were then baptized. Don't believe me? Look at every example of conversion in the Bible. After they believed, they therefore turned to God and were baptized. Now since belief is foundational and MUST come before repentance and baptism, or else your repentance and baptism is based on nothing, then it has to be after the whole process, which is ending in baptism. They Holy Spirit isn't given at belief, because belief leads to repentance and baptism, and it's at repentance and baptism that we recieve that we are sealed with that Holy Spirit. Belief, repentance, and baptism give us the Holy Spirit, and since baptism is the last step of reception, it is at baptism that we get the Holy Spirit. ("And THEN you shall recieve the Holy Spirit.")

[Guest shiloh357]

I am of course not saying that Noah was saved by water, but because of water. Consider this: The dividing line between those in the flood was water. You either lived BECAUSE OF water, or you died BECAUSE OF water. That flood, that watery dividing line, SYMBOLIZES something extremely that we have today. Baptism.

No, the dividing line was the ARK. Your first sentence quoted here is a contradiction. They were not saved by the water but because of the water is a contradiction. "Saved by water," and Saved because of water" are both making water the element of salvation. Therefore the sentence is a contradiction.

In Noah's case, you were saved because of the Ark or you died as result of not being on the Ark. It is the ark that Peter is drawing attention to, not water.

The circumcision issue brought up by Saved by Grace is important. Abraham was justified 25 years before circumcizion. IN the same way, we are justified by faith, and Baptism, which is the NT equivalant to circumcision, is an outward showing of an inward transformation. It does not add to, or is in any way effectual for salvation.

[1ptr29citizen]

No, the dividing line was in fact water shiloh. Those who remained alive, remained alive because of water. They were the only ones left to embrace living, all others had died because of it. It's not just my analogy shiloh, Peter tells us that the people were in fact saved through water. The Bible says they were saved through water, not me. Or maybe you haven't read those verses. If Peter was talking about the ark (which he nowhere was in that verse), then what is it the ark would even be symbolizing? Also, you have no grounds to talk about salvation in the Old Testament, seeing as how that was before Jesus' death, and people then lived under the law, which has been fulfilled by Christ, Galatians 3:10-25. We no longer live under the Old Testament, and are saved according to the New Testament, because the old law was fulfilled by Christ. Now, how do we join in with Christ? Galatians 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-7 would give insight and argue that baptism joins us with Christ. Where is your verse to say we are justified by faith like Abraham was? And that also is according to your definition of faith, which we have already talked a little bit about. If you mean faith as in obeying everything God told us to do through the gospel, then yes, we are justified by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). If you mean faith by meaning, belief by itself, then no we are not justified by that definition of faith (James 2:19). Where is your verse for baptism being an outward showing inward thing, and your verse to say baptism is NOT for salvation, a verse to disprove 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16. Sorry, but we're not taking words of man, show me grounds for your belief based on the living Word.

[justjake]

Hmmm...inteesting.  God is not a "special provisions" type of Person, though.  He gives no special preference (ie. no respector of persons).  I think the Bible is clear that faith is the essential factor of salvation as a whole.  But it does not diminish or negate the need to be baptized.  Baptism does not in and of itself impart eternal life to the believer.  But it does make the final and absolute declaration of repentance.

I bolded a section of your post and would like to ask the following question.

What exactly is faith?

Is is a one-time head knowledge or is it a full submissive belief of the heart displayed through submission to Christ's Law?

1 Corinthians 9:19-21

Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.  To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.  To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself an not under the law), so as to win those under the law.  To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God

[Guest shiloh357]

No, the dividing line was in fact water shiloh. Those who remained alive, remained alive because of water. They were the only ones left to embrace living, all others had died because of it. It's not just my analogy shiloh, Peter tells us that the people were in fact saved through water. The Bible says they were saved through water, not me. Or maybe you haven't read those verses. If Peter was talking about the ark (which he nowhere was in that verse), then what is it the ark would even be symbolizing?

It was the ark which is a type of Christ that saved them. The water did save anyone it destroyed all life. The water was destructive, and was an act of judgement upon sin. The Ark shows that Christ is the way to avoid the judgement of God. Again Peter tells us that the water was what they were saved through by the ark. They were not saved by the water. The dividing line is indeed the ark. It divided those who lived and those who died. It divided those in the water from those not in the water. Peter did not mention the ark but it is a given since we know the story Peter is referring to.

Also, you have no grounds to talk about salvation in the Old Testament, seeing as how that was before Jesus' death, and people then lived under the law, which has been fulfilled by Christ, Galatians 3:10-25. We no longer live under the Old Testament, and are saved according to the New Testament, because the old law was fulfilled by Christ. Now, how do we join in with Christ? Galatians 3:26-27 and Romans 6:3-7 would give insight and argue that baptism joins us with Christ. Where is your verse to say we are justified by faith like Abraham was?

Paul talked about salvation out of the old Testament all the time. All he had was an Old Testament to preach from. That was his scriptures. He did not have a New Testament in his Bible. So I have every right to use the OT. Abraham was saved BEFORE the law was given so you cannot use the "under the law arguemnt. It does not apply where Abraham was concerned. Furthermore, the OT says in habbakuk 2:4 that they righteous are justified by faith. Faith has always been the means of salvation whether one was looking ahead to the cross or looking behind at the cross, they still put their faith in what Messiah was to do, or has done. Salvation was never brought by the law.

Romans 4:10-11

How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; [11] and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to them,

Romans 4:23-24

Now not for his sake only was it written, that it was reckoned to him, [24] but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

See? We ARE justified by faith, in the same way Abraham was.

Galatians 3:6-9

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. [7] Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. [8] And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you." [9] So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

A little more proof that we are justified by faith just like faithful Abraham.

[justjake]

...See? We ARE justified by faith, in the same way Abraham was...A little more proof that we are justified by faith just like faithful Abraham...

That is right!

But again, what is faith?

I have a thread about faith in the general discussion forum if anybody cares to stop by and check it out. God bless each of you!

[WayneB]

Where is your verse for baptism being an outward showing inward thing, and your verse to say baptism is NOT for salvation, a verse to disprove 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16. Sorry, but we're not taking words of man, show me grounds for your belief based on the living Word.

The verse?

Let's look at the verses you mentioned.

1 Peter 3:20b In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Removal of dirt = outward, the physical

Pledge of a good conscience towards God = inward, the spiritual

Jesus as recorded in John chapter 4 verse 10 answered the Samaritan woman, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water ."

Bless you brother,

Wayne

[1ptr29citizen]

1 Peter 3:20-21 "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now SAVES YOU also - NOT the removal of dirt from the body BUT THE pledge of a good conscience toward God. IT SAVES YOU by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If you consider the ark to be Jesus, that would be a good analogy. Those who were IN THE ARK were saved THROUGH THE WATER. Is that not exactly what that verse says? Now, how do we join ourselves to Jesus? Baptism? Galatians 3? Romans 6? Hmm... Now let's look at verse 21, who states that: a baptism, in water, saves you, because it's not the removal of dirt from the body, but it is instead the pledge of a good conscience towards God. The last sentence in 21, it saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The water separated Noah and his family from death because of the ark. Baptism separates us from death because of Jesus. Verse 20 symbolizes verse 21, they are equal. How can you argue that baptism does not save you, when the Bible says, and I quote "this baptism now saves you."? How can we look at that, and disagree that baptism saves you?

1 Peter 3:21 "THIS WATER SYMBOLIZES BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU ALSO."

Consider it.

[Guest yod]

Baptism is to christians what circumcision is to jews

A sign of the covenant made with God.

Can a jew be jewish without circumcision? Well...sort of...but not really part of the Abrahamic covenant which sets him apart.

Same with baptism. The FIRST act of obedience when a profession of salvation has occured should be baptism...but without that profession of faith there is no need for baptism.

Salvation happens FIRST which means baptism is not a ritual leading to salvation. However, I would question the sincerity of someone's faith if they ignore this sign of entering into covenant with God through Yeshua's death and resurrection.

Baptism is to christians what circumcision is to jews

A sign of the covenant made with God.

Can a jew be jewish without circumcision? Well...sort of...but not really part of the Abrahamic covenant which sets him apart.

Same with baptism. The FIRST act of obedience when a profession of salvation has occured should be baptism...but without that profession of faith there is no need for baptism.

Salvation happens FIRST which means baptism is not a ritual leading to salvation. However, I would question the sincerity of someone's faith if they ignore this sign of entering into covenant with God through Yeshua's death and resurrection.

[1ptr29citizen]

Removal of dirt = outward, the physical

Pledge of a good conscience towards God = inward, the spiritual

Saved by grace, that's not what the verse is saying. The verse is connecting "not the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience to God" to "baptism that now saves you also." It's saying baptism is NOT the removal of dirt. So in your definition of removal of dirt, that would translate to baptism is NOT the "outward, the physical." "But the pledge of a good conscience to God." So again in your definition of the pledge of a good conscience towards God and baptism in the context of the verse would translate to baptism NOT being the "outward, the physical," but instead baptism being "inward, the spiritual." If we are not saved by baptism like this verse says, then how are we to be saved? It's certainly not JUST because Jesus died for us. In Matthew 7:13-14 we are told that more people are going to hell than people who are going to heaven. If EVERYONE was going to heaven, simply because Jesus died, and they didn't even have to ACCEPT that he died, then how will hell be more filled than heaven, contradicting Matthew 7? How do we accept that death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? Immitating it along with Him as indicated in Romans 6 is a way FOR SURE...It's certainly not by belief only that we are saved either, or else all the demons are going to heaven (James 2:19). It is by FAITH that we are saved, and justjake is right in asking, "what then is faith?" Faith isn't just believing, (or that would go back to the demon thing in James 2:19) faith is believing so deeply in our heart EVERYTHING God tells us, and then obeying it. God tells us in 1 Peter 3:21 that this baptism saves us through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, a birth in the water, blood, and Holy Spirit all in one. Since God tells us that, we should obey that.

yod, what you said doesn't make much since, trying to say that salvation comes before baptism, seeing as how 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that it is baptism that saves us.