WayneB Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Salvation happens FIRST which means baptism is not a ritual leading to salvation. However, I would question the sincerity of someone's faith if they ignore this sign of entering into covenant with God through Yeshua's death and resurrection. Yod, you and I are in agreement for the most part. We are just saying it a bit different. In my flesh, I would also question the sincerity of the person claiming to be born again yet refusing to be baptized in water as an expression of obedience. Yet in my spirit, I realize it is not for me to question. That is between the person and his Master. There may be a number of reasons for someone "dragging their feet". Regardless, water baptism should be an exciting event in a new believer's life...it was in mine! Regarding an uncircumcised Jew, his father is still Abraham. Nothing can change that. Regarding an un-baptized born again believer, he is still a child of God. Blessings, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justjake Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 69 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/07/1974 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Regarding an uncircumcised Jew, his father is still Abraham. Nothing can change that. Regarding an un-baptized born again believer, he is still a child of God. But Romans 6:2-6 say that we are included IN Christ at baptism. The type of baptism that is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Hmmm...inteesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted February 18, 2004 If we are not saved by baptism like this verse says, then how are we to be saved? I must leave but I will answer this one with the words of Jesus--- John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned , but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Blessings, Wayne Regarding my earlier post and your response as I understand it --- EXACTLY! The outward does not save!!! Baptize in the "Living Water"...the inward transformation of a sinner into a clean and pure vessel for the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. All praise and glory to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 And your verse that someone can be an unbaptized believer AND be a child of God is..?? Instead, let's look at a verse that actually DOES indicate that baptism places us as a child of God: Galatians 3:26-29 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves in Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." We are children of God through FAITH IN Jesus. How do we get into Jesus? Baptism. So faith in Jesus and being in Jesus are equal, with being in Jesus meaning those who are baptized. Is our faith in Jesus if we are not obeying how God planned for us to clothe ourselves in Christ? If we are in Christ, we are all one under God. Now again, how do we PUT ON, and GET INTO Christ? Baptism... If we belong to Christ, then we are Abraham's seed, and those who are Abraham's seed are heirs ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE. What promise? Genesis 12:3 indicates that all on earth can be a part of the promise, and those who are a part of the promise will be BLESSED. Now, how do we become Abraham's seed so that we are heirs to be Christ? Well, one who is in Christ has that inheritance of blessings. Now how do we belong to, and how are we in Christ? Well, verse 27 proves that its those who are baptized, because when we're baptized, we PUT ON Christ. We are CLOTHED in Christ. If we are clothed in Him with a new life, aren't we IN Him? And if we're IN him, aren't we heirs to the promise? Once again I want you to answer this with these verses: How do we live a new life and adjoin ourselves to and IN Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Hmmmm....Just a thought....Any verses in the Bible that render an account of Paul's baptism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 Sorry that was such a late post. Regarding my earlier post and your response as I understand it --- EXACTLY! The outward does not save!!! Baptize in the "Living Water"...the inward transformation of a sinner into a clean and pure vessel for the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. All praise and glory to God. Saved By Grace, when the water in verse 20 is a physical water symbolizing the same water in verse 21, that is the water of baptism, how can you get that baptism is just in the water of Jesus. It is in the water, blood, and Spirit, but it isn't done through a physical water, a water like the water in the flood of Noah. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned , but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." - Saved By Grace Mark16:16 "Whoever believes AND is baptized will be SAVED, but whoever does not believe will be CONDEMNED." Yes we must believe, John 3:16 expresses that. We must ALSO be baptized, Mark 16:16 expresses that. How are we saved? Belief? Baptism? Both? Hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ptr29citizen Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 18, 2004 Paul was instructed that there is a necessity behind baptism. Paul was baptized in the story of his conversion also: Acts 9:18 "Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized" God-man, in Acts 22 Paul is recounting the event of his conversion, and in verse 16 he tells us what Anaias told him to do: Acts 22:16 "What are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash you sins away, calling on his name." Why would Paul be baptized if there was no importance in it? Also, why would he be baptized for a profession of great faith, considering he had just been murdering Christians? Wouldn't he need salvation from his sins before he was a faithful believer? Also, there ISN'T even a verse in the Bible that SAYS ANYTHING about baptism for the profession of faith. If you were baptized for your faith, WHY were you? There certainly isn't scripture on it... However the baptism talked about in scripture does mention it being for salvation. Odd.. how there is nothing about baptism for profession of faith, and how there's no way Paul was strong in faith when he was baptized... So why would he have been baptized? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Regarding an uncircumcised Jew, his father is still Abraham. Nothing can change that. Regarding an un-baptized born again believer, he is still a child of God. But Romans 6:2-6 say that we are included IN Christ at baptism. The type of baptism that is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus. Brother Jake, Let's look at the Scriptures you mentioned--- Romans 6:1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. I do not dispute the Word...it is clear to me when I read in context with the rest of the Word. Baptism by/in the "Living Water" is the work of the Holy Spirit... the actual regeneration of the new believer. Baptism in H2O is the work of man as an expression of his regeneration...an act of obedience...a result of Faith. If you read this passage of scripture as specifying baptism in H20...something physical...then you must take the rest of the passage in to be in the physical world as well. Obviously that is not the case since your flesh is still walking around brother. It is your spirit that was regenerated and made anew, not your flesh. Bless you, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted February 18, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.43 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Thanks for the verses....forgot about those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts