Im not sure if I understand a couple things in your post.

! Thess 4

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Says we meet the Lord in the clouds/air.

Then right after you say

It is not said or implied anywhere that immediately we will ascend to the clouds to be with the Lord forever.

Is this agreeing with v 17 or not?

Lastly you say

we go up, they come down

can you clear this up please?

14 hours ago, NConly said:

 

Im not sure if I understand a couple things in your post.

! Thess 4

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Says we meet the Lord in the clouds/air.

Then right after you say

It is not said or implied anywhere that immediately we will ascend to the clouds to be with the Lord forever.

Is this agreeing with v 17 or not?

Lastly you say

we go up, they come down

can you clear this up please?

 

 

I would be glad to. Remember, my blog is one person’s eschatology and opinion as I see the end times unfolding. I purposely omitted some additional thoughts on your questions. Not long ago, such thoughts as those I espouse would be considered out of the mainstream; not anymore.

On your 1^st question, “ It is not said or implied anywhere that immediately we will ascend to the clouds to be with the Lord forever.”

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [emphasis mine]

As fast as light passes through an eye, the dead will be raised, and we, which remain alive shortly after that, will receive our glorified bodies instantly. Paul speaks specifically to our bodies, those dead in Christ, and we who remain. The dead in Christ are raised to everlasting life first; then there is a pause or gap of unknown time between that, and then we who are alive are changed. It is a sequence of events: the dead first, followed by those alive.

Paul is not talking about a harpazo (directional movement) or the Rapture (forceful snatching away) of born-again believers (the church). I see no evidence or mention in the Bible of the translation of the dead, living, and the Rapture all coinciding in an instant. The translation and movement to the clouds to meet Jesus are two separate events. I would be grateful if anyone could show me where our snatching up into the clouds (harpazo – Rapture) is instant.

Plenty of events are too numerous to mention, involving a gap of time between them. There is a two millennia gap thus far between the comma in Isaiah 61:1-2 and Jesus directly quoting Isaiah in Luke 4:16-20, to name but one of several.

A pattern of biblical precedence:

Many witnessed Elijah being transported to heaven by a whirlwind in a chariot. Elijah and Elisha were expecting it; they were not taken by surprise and were seen by many

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. [emphasis mine]

Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

As I mentioned in the blog, The number is not given, but Jesus was witnessed slowly ascending to Heaven to be at the Father's right hand. The firstborn of the dead and first fruits, with more to follow in like manner, another pattern.

The many saints quickened (slept) after Jesus’s resurrection and were seen walking the holy city's streets (Jerusalem)—another biblical pattern.

The 2^nd question: “we go up, they come down.”

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

As I alluded to in my blog, not many years ago, my thoughts would be considered preposterous and conspiracy theory. I submitted an article to the Christian website Rapture Ready years ago on this very topic, and it was rejected as a conspiracy theory. Today, many articles and books are parroting what I wrote years ago to Rapture Ready and elsewhere.  

As mentioned in the blog, Jesus warns in the plural that there will be an unknown number of more than a single false Christ and a single false prophet. Who could they be? With powerful and impressive signs and wonders, it will deceive the entire world. So powerful, Christians, too, would be deceived if it were possible. It is impossible because we have the Holy Spirit and Jesus indwelling us, giving us discernment, seeing and knowing the deception (Matt. 24: 4x do not fall for it).

The Restrainer:

 He who restrains now is the Holy Spirit, and He will be taken out of the way of restraining evil at the Rapture (end of the age of Grace – church age). The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the church of God. We think things are getting bad now with all the abominations and becoming laws and the new normal; we haven’t seen anything yet.

Let me ask this. The millions of reputable, credible, and sane witnesses who have seen U.A.P.s taking pictures and videos of them breaking all the laws of our known physics. Could this be the beginning, the intro, of great signs and wonders?

Again, as I propose in the original blog, when in history has so much attention, money, and investigation have been paid to something that has been lied about and covered up for decades. I will not delve into the 1917 secret of Fatima's deception, what the Vatican believes and is hiding, and what and how it pertains to religion. Still, it is interesting and something to be aware of.

With the advent of official government acknowledgment, U.F.O.s exist, posing a threat to national security and aviation; this alone is a game changer and leading somewhere prophetically.

I cannot think of a better explanation, explaining away the Rapture of the church, than the fulfillment of the new theory of panspermia. Immediately after the Rapture of the church, the great deception begins. These unidentified craft's occupants materialize, make themselves known, and show great signs and wonders to prove their superiority. They will probably claim they are responsible for seeding the universe for the evolution of life. They most likely claim they have the solution to our religious, climate change, and global war problems. These entities will set up a man with a plan on our behalf that the world is screaming for (deception).

Beam me up, Scotti:

With the exhibition of powers we do not possess, and breaking the laws of our physics, calling down lightning from heaven and other miracles. Is it a stretch of the imagination they will claim they are responsible for the disappearance of the earth’s troublemakers, Christ followers?

The world is going mad searching for extraterrestrial life and spending billions, including the Vatican in Arizona, with their L.U.C.I.F.E.R. equipment and telescope. I invite anyone to read the well-documented and researched book, EXO-VATICANA, by the late Dr. Thomas Horn and Cris Putnam, with the Vatican’s involvement.

I believe this phenomenon, being witnessed now as part of a frenzied investigation and widespread reporting and media attention, will be one of the great deceptions that will come soon. I suspect these crafts and beings to be deceptive, malevolent, demonic, and antichrists, as stated in Matthew 24:24.

In the last decade, the glass half darkly is clearing up prophetically.

The windup, hesitation, and pitch. Will it be a strike or outside of the strike zone? We shall see, and time will tell as God’s plan unfolds.

Ok thank you for your response. I still have trouble with Q1 answer.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

V 16  ( and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ) implies a second part not days or years apart.

V17 ( caught up together with them ) implies the live and dead meet in air (together)

V 17 ( and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ) we are no longer on or part of the earth

Maybe I i see different than you Thank You for your response again.

35 minutes ago, NConly said:

Ok thank you for your response. I still have trouble with Q1 answer.

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

V 16  ( and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ) implies a second part not days or years apart.

V17 ( caught up together with them ) implies the live and dead meet in air (together)

V 17 ( and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ) we are no longer on or part of the earth

Maybe I i see different than you Thank You for your response again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@NConly While unedifying events in the world, as foretold, will indeed occur, the pilgrim church has the privilege of serving the Lord Jesus in the Gospel, looking to Him (Hebrews 12.2), in the light of His return for the church, as per the passage you quoted.

(This is how I would see it...)

4 hours ago, NConly said:

Ok thank you for your response. I still have trouble with Q1 answer.

 

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

V 16  ( and the dead in Christ shall rise first: ) implies a second part not days or years apart.

V17 ( caught up together with them ) implies the live and dead meet in air (together)

V 17 ( and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ) we are no longer on or part of the earth

Maybe I i see different than you Thank You for your response again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I do not think we see it differently other than by groups, timing, and delays. Let me clarify how my mind processes this, sticking to a single example.

Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, ⁵³ And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

• The bodies of these saints arose, and they were resurrected from their graves after the first fruits, Jesus. Whether it be a sepulcher or a grave, they all were underground and dead (sleeping).
• In the following sequence, the saints went into Jerusalem (this indicates they probably walked there).
• They appeared unto many. What purpose would it have served if the many did not know that they had been dead?
• How long did they walk among the many to show and prove they arose from the dead? We are not privy to that information, but it is a moment in time, not a twinkling of an eye. They were most likely resurrected in a twinkling of an eye.

After they appeared to many that evidently would recognize them, or they introduced themselves. Where did they go next? Did they die twice and go back to the grave? Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Or, were they caught up into the air and be with the Lord forever (harpazo - Rapture)?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There are only two resurrections: the first resurrection unto eternal life and the second bodily resurrection unto everlasting damnation.

The first resurrection includes different groups and times. These many people in Matt. 27:52 (how many are many?), the church saints, the tribulation saints, and the Old Testament saints. I suspect it also includes those raised by Jesus and the apostles if Hebrews 9:27 has no exceptions. Again, we are not told, and left to speculate based on scripture.

The Greek word harpazo only indicates a supernatural movement and needs a direction for that movement. Phillip was raptured, not up, but to another location on earth. Biblical text, Biblical historical chronology, and dating suggest Elijah may have been transported as Phillip was. That is another interesting study.