Long slow but hopefully thorough as I try to establish certain facts so they quit becoming a question again.    First working on 'the church' in Revelation, is it or isn't it?   

thoughts...

The 7 churches are all given the SAME KNOWLEDGE and that is then given to each individual to see and hear.   

5 of them aren't even close to never tasting of death, being changed/transformed or raptured at anytime, unless they start repenting.  But as they were not ready then, they certainly don't seem to be ready now, and by what is written, many are set to be 'deceived' just as the whole world will by worship of the image


Rev 2 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. 6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

in other words, to be worthy for His Kingdom, we really do have to 'PICK UP OUR CROSS' and follow Him and that would be impossible if we were 'taken away' before that time came.  Jesus didn't speak of the last days as being the same as the rest of the days, and definitely didn't ever say 'before the trouble I will come get you' but of a time specifically different from the rest.  Satan and angels kicked out of heaven are coming to the earth and that is the same as when the fallen angels corrupted all the bloodlines during Noah's time, and again the influx in Sodom, etc.

We are commanded to 'overcome' in Rev 2 and 3 at which point many just make up whatever they want as to the 'what, when, who, etc' that overcoming means...when the 'who and what' we are to OVERCOME is CLEARLY given in Rev 6 leaving us without any doubt as to what GOD means yet many insist upon their own thoughts over His written word anyhow.  



Rev 6:2  And I looked and behold a horse white and the [one] sitting on it having a bow and was given to him a crown and he went forth overcoming and that he might conquer, more on that below)

Again, the messages are given to the churches (the churches in the Greek being BOTH 'feminine and plural') FOR the 'him' who is to overcome ( 'him' in the Greek being BOTH 'singular and masculine').


 All that is needed for us to overcome and or be KEPT/GUARDED from the hour, is to receive the SEAL in our foreheads aka the KNOWLEDGE received from the words of God.  In which way could it be made any simpler?  Deception is coming upon the whole world, do not worship the first beast, the 2nd beast, the image or the abomination.  Worship our Father, The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY because when we worship anything/anyone else, our love and our prayers stop going to HIM and start going to whatever idol has taken His place.  Hence is the 'daily sacrifice' taken away


When were the 'seals' of the book opened/loosed?  Wouldn't that be back when it was given to John?  IF the book were still sealed,  we wouldn't know what was written in it, would we?  Nothing but common sense here.  Our knowing what is written in it PROVES the seals have been 'loosed' already.  What we are waiting for now is 'the times and the seasons' they speak to to manifest.   Basic common sense. 


Common sense vs nonsense  

"the book was UNWRAPPED, allowing the book to be opened and read, so having read it proves it was unwrapped"

as opposed to

"the book is STILL WRAPPED up, therefore impossible to READ, yet it is being read". 

Either we have eyes and ears to see and hear and believe the words of God as they are written, or we hold with the traditions/doctrines/theories that demand basic common sense to be tossed out the window and replaced with nonsense.  Isn't that the problem with the wisdom of man?  The many many times that common sense is replaced with nonsense    




We know we have THE SEAL of God when we recognize the times and the seasons... and to WHOM the words are being written...

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


we don't read them like this, which we would have to do to support a 'theory'

When THEY therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Given power over all our enemies means NO NEED to be 'transformed and taken away' to be saved from our enemies.  
Does a house divided stand or not?  Are we or are we not a many membered body?  How could anyone THINK of leaving someone else 'behind' when we are to love them...?  What kind of love is that?   


The unsealing of the book basically brings to the forefront how Satans deception is 'loosed' upon the world to its culmination as 'he stands where he ought not' and kills the two witnesses.  Lies and deception are what 'overcome' us when we don't KEEP WATCH, or WALK in faith or overcome to the end. 

  

Jesus Himself tells us in Matt 24:4 the same thing that Rev 6 does... 'be not deceived'…aka be not overcome

Revelation 6:2 And I looked and behold a horse white and the [one] sitting on it having a bow and was given to him a crown and he went forth overcoming and that he might conquer, more on that below)


 We see the rider on the 'white' horse going forth as 'an imitation' of the TRUE, he is the fake rock, the desolator, the mystery of iniquity…his 'spirit' goes forth…the mystery of iniquity doeth already work...

3528 nikaó - overcoming

3528 nikēsē -

νικήσῃ (nikēsē) — 2 Occurrences

Luke 11:22 V-ASA-3S

GRK: αὐτοῦ ἐπελθὼν νικήσῃ αὐτόν τὴν

NAS: than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away

KJV: shall come upon him, and overcome him,

INT: than he having come upon [him] shall overcome him the

Revelation 6:2 V-ASA-3S

GRK: καὶ ἵνα νικήσῃ

NAS: out conquering and to conquer.

KJV: and to conquer.

INT: and that he might overcome

LUKE 11

14And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17But He, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

19And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

20But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

23He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Interlinear
The [one] not being with Me against Me is and the [one] not gathering with Me, scatters


 

Greek lessons from Rev 2:7, 2:11, 2:17 to establish the 'church' and the 'him' are of the same but not the same.  

The [one] (3588)

Article - Nominative Masculine Singular

Let him hear (191)
Verb - Aorist Imperitive Active - 3rd Person Singular

churches 1577
Noun - Dative Feminine Plural

to the {one}  3588
Article - Dative Masculine Singular

to him 846
Personal/Possessive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Singular
 

For some of us it is very clear, the message is PUT FORTH to all those 'calling' themselves 'Christians' BUT Salvation is to the individuals and ALL will stand on their own and no 'group' will be judged and 'saved' by the actions or faith of the other members.  The Greek only reinforces this truth more while at the same time sheds more light on the falseness of the Pre Trib Theory of a single 'group' not suffering tribulation by being transformed at a DIFFERENT TIME than the one written of when ALL WILL BE CHANGED. 

===========================================================================================================

Even if it were 'one of Gods Truths', choosing to be a part of the 'pre trib rap' church, would never be my choice.  I can't think of any reason I would want to 'escape' the tribulation that comes before the return of Christ and the Judgments of God on this world.  Just as I have faith in the words of God I have faith in the works of God and knowing we are given power over all our enemies, exactly what is coming and why, I would choose to be one of the ones who made a STAND for the Lord.  I know the 'wrath' of God will not fall upon me even as it comes upon the world I am standing upon. 

ANYWAY, when I went about a study of this next verse it REALLY solidified my feelings, not that I believe there will be any such thing taking place anyhow... I am sure glad it won't.  

Matt 20:16

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Definition: Last, final, utmost, extreme
Meaning: last, at the last, finally, till the end.

Definition: First, foremost, chief, principal
Meaning: first, before, principal, most important.

HELPS Word-studies
4413 prṓtos (an adjective, derived from 4253 /pró, "before, forward") – first (foremost). 4413 /prṓtos ("first, foremost") is the superlative form of 4253 /pró ("before") meaning "what comes first" (is "number one").

Seems a pre trib rapture would remove all from being in the best spot anyhow


============================================================================================================================================
 

Another thing I am going to get to is:   WHO RETURNS WITH CHRIST when He returns, and all the Scriptures that make me believe as I do starting with 


Rev 17:14
These with the Lamb war will make, and the Lamb will overcome them because Lord of lords He is, and King of kings and those with Him [are] called and chosen and faithful



Rev 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.