Bold Believer

And place my trust in the teaching of the past to formulate doctrine for the present. Jesus taught a Last Day resurrection. Martha (and by extension, others) believed in a last day resurrection. So, I believe in a last day resurrection.

Ok I'll call youism Love, Steven Obviously Steven, I'm a partial preterist. I'm also a realized millennialist (Jay C. Adams "The Time is At Hand" can explain that term).

Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit. AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer). Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king. You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's. Sorry I'm answering these so late: 1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9. One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven. So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised. 3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.) 4. The reference of not loving their lives even unto death refers to refusing to believe that Caesar was Lord. That was the demand of believers, to admit that Caesar was Lord. The response of the faithful was: Jesus is Lord. It applies to the Jewish and Gentile Believers who went through the Neronian persecution. They are the martyrs mentioned in Rev 20. They gained the honor of reigning with Jesus during the 1000 years. The question may come up: Why them and not all of the other Believers who've died for Christ? That you will have to ask God when you see Him. I have no honest answer, but I do have a conjecture: They were the first to die for Jesus, and God is honoring that. My personal draw on preterism is that of unfounded within Scripture. Just the basic need to twist much of Scripture out of joint to fit one little phrase "this generation" which was fulfilled in John the disciple taken into end times to pen The Revelation of Jesus Christ... My goodness history doesn't even work with it... as were seeing now moving to a one world government of ungodly proportions! Here is some really good work on the subject! http://www.reformedo...rismRapture.htm Love, Steven A preterist though would believe that AD 70 was the parousia. I don't. so then what ism are you ? See my edit of the above.

Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit. AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer). Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king. You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's. Sorry I'm answering these so late: 1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9. One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven. So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised. 3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.) 4. The reference of not loving their lives even unto death refers to refusing to believe that Caesar was Lord. That was the demand of believers, to admit that Caesar was Lord. The response of the faithful was: Jesus is Lord. It applies to the Jewish and Gentile Believers who went through the Neronian persecution. They are the martyrs mentioned in Rev 20. They gained the honor of reigning with Jesus during the 1000 years. The question may come up: Why them and not all of the other Believers who've died for Christ? That you will have to ask God when you see Him. I have no honest answer, but I do have a conjecture: They were the first to die for Jesus, and God is honoring that. My personal draw on preterism is that of unfounded within Scripture. Just the basic need to twist much of Scripture out of joint to fit one little phrase "this generation" which was fulfilled in John the disciple taken into end times to pen The Revelation of Jesus Christ... My goodness history doesn't even work with it... as were seeing now moving to a one world government of ungodly proportions! Here is some really good work on the subject! http://www.reformedo...rismRapture.htm Love, Steven A preterist though would believe that AD 70 was the parousia. I don't. From the site you mentioned: "Third, once again it is important that we distinguish between partial preterists who are orthodox Christians and full preterists who are heretics that should be excommunicated if they don’t repent. All Christians are partial preterists to some degree, in that they recognize that some New Testament predictions have already taken place. Today people who are associated with partial preterism usually teach that Matthew 24, at least up to verse 34, was fulfilled when Jesus came in judgment upon Jerusalem in A.D. 66-70 and destroyed the Temple. Also, many parts of Revelation are seen as already fulfilled. Some popular modern partial preterist authors are Milton Terry, R.C. Sproul, Greg Bahnsen, Ken Gentry Jr. and Gary Demar. Although there are a number of differences among partial preterists regarding certain passages and especially how to approach the book of Revelation, all partial preterist writers are careful to make a distinction between our Lord’s judgment of Israel and the final, bodily coming of Christ. Thus, the orthodox interpretation of the second coming, general resurrection, rapture and final judgment is maintained."

1. The word Rosh in Hebrew means chief or head. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA. 2. There are 2 Gog-Magog prophecies in Scripture, one physical, the other spiritual. The physical one has been fulfilled. The Spiritual one is BEING fulfilled as we speak. 3. The person who said that the spiritual prophecy occurs at the 1000 years of teaching is quite correct. What he or she may not realize is that those 1000 years have been fulfilled. Christ has reigned over the earth from heaven (with the martyrs of Rev 20) and the whole earth knows who Christ is. Whether they WORSHIP HIM is immaterial. It is the KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD which covers the earth as the waters cover the seas, not the worship of the Lord. 4. The devil has been released and he IS currently gathering Magog. Gog (in Rev 20) is the devil. The Holy City is US. Believers. Are we not being attacked from every side? Spiritually and physically, the forces of Gog are on us. And just when it looks the bleakest, that is when Jesus will come. They surround us, text reads. And then fire from heaven consumes them all.

Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit. AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer). Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king. You may relate that to the early NT saints but I do not believe that John is relating it to them. In context with what is before and after John is talking about the 7 years tribulation of the last times and these are the saints that did not take the mark of the beast. When do you believe the 7 years of tribulation will take place? Will the anti-Christ sit on the throne and declare himself to be God. The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel and the two witnesses of God during that time which leads into the 1000 years reign. It says of these saints they loved not their lives even unto death and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, these are the ones I see there before the throne and whose bodies will be raised to go into the 1000 years reign on earth. I do not see your connection in context with the book of Revelation's. Sorry I'm answering these so late: 1. Regarding the alleged 7 years of tribulation, there is no such thing. There are 70 weeks of years (Daniel 9:22-28) or what in Hebrew is called a 'seven'. The last of these sevens was during the life of Christ. Jesus died in the midst of the week, making sacrifice and oblation no longer viable. (His blood is greater than that of bulls and goats.) This left 3.5 years remaining and during those years, the Holy Spirit empowered the Church and began to minister. There are two other 1260 day periods mentioned, but not in Daniel 9. One of those periods is the "Little Horn" persecution of Daniel 7. An evil man comes along and persecutes (and the text says 'wears out') the saints. We know this man to be Nero. The Neronian persecution lasted 3.5 years and nearly killed off the Church. The other 3.5 years was the First Jewish war, which culminated in the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel does mention this event in Ch 9, but not in the context of a seven. So then, the tribulation has occurred, finding its fulfillment in the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 2. Ahh, the antichrist. Never has so much been made of so little. I challenge you to look up the word antichrist in Scripture and get back to me. See what you find. You might be surprised. 3. The 144,000 (12K from each tribe of Israel) is not literal. It is reference to all of the faithful Believing Israelites. 144,000 is a perfect number. 12 x 12 x 1000. (There were way more than 144,000 faithful Israelites.) 4. The reference of not loving their lives even unto death refers to refusing to believe that Caesar was Lord. That was the demand of believers, to admit that Caesar was Lord. The response of the faithful was: Jesus is Lord. It applies to the Jewish and Gentile Believers who went through the Neronian persecution. They are the martyrs mentioned in Rev 20. They gained the honor of reigning with Jesus during the 1000 years. The question may come up: Why them and not all of the other Believers who've died for Christ? That you will have to ask God when you see Him. I have no honest answer, but I do have a conjecture: They were the first to die for Jesus, and God is honoring that.

Simple. Go to his FB page and tell him we're offended.

What do you think that Christians should be doing? Should we riot and burn things and kill people like we see other religions doing? This person is clearly not a Christian and does not believe the same things we do, why do Christians often expect non-Christians to act and think like we do? It seems somewhere we are told that vengeance belongs to the Lord. I am not ignorant on this at all and either are others. It seems pretty clear to me , that man knows who is the Lord and Savior truely is...or he would not be saying it. No... we should but, be don't protest. True christian don't. It is blasphemy , and even a Christian can blasphemy someone. Those who CLAIM to be Christians. There are a lot of Judis Iscariots' . do you think that Foxx is a Christian? Maybe on BIZARRO WORLD!

Blasphemy isn't funny. It really doesn't rise to blasphemy, Tinky, since it's not directed at the Lord but, rather, MISdirected toward President Obama. Jamie Foxx is known to say outrageous things and, in this case, you can add the word 'stupid' to his repertoire. I have a feeling that this was MEANT to create a firestorm and....look....it did. Why has Obama not come out and said something about this to the effect of: "Uh sorry Jamie, not so."? And let's face it, if this happened in an Islamic country, Foxx would be dead in a ditch and half of DC would be on fire.

Absolutely horrendous...and the crowd APPLAUDS! http://www.ijreview.com/2012/11/23174-actor-jamie-foxx-barack-obama-our-lord-savior/

Let me try to say this in the RIGHT way, for a change: Yes, I too was brought up to believe that pyramids were part of the occult; so I can understand your reluctance. Then, I started to study mathematics in school with a passion and I ran into great minds like those of Sir Isaac Newton, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, and Georg Friedrich Riemann, and came to realize that Mathematics is one of the great creations of God Almighty! HaSatan may arrest some of the mathematics to his own ends, but the pyramid is a basic shape that GOD made, not the devil! In truth, there is nothing either good or bad in the shape itself; it is how that shape is used by the one who uses it. So, if a designer and builder such as Chanokh (Enoch, who walked with God) takes the shape for one of his architectures (the Great Pyramid of Giza is attributed to him by Arabian literature), or a occultist and astrologer takes the shape and abuses (abnormally uses) the shape to his own ends, the good or bad found there is in the user, not in the shape! There is nothing inheritantly evil in the shape of a pyramid. In fact, the tetrahedron, a three sided pyramid, is the basic shape of the methane (CH4) and carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) molecules. The octahedron, an eight sided shape consisting of two four-sided pyramids stuck together at their bases, is the basic shape of the sulfur hexafluoride (SF6) molecule. These molecules are common in God's Nature. From the biblical perspective, textually speaking the Bible is made up of sixty-six books written by several authors (how many only God knows for sure) who were all inspired by the one Holy Spirit of God. These authors all had certain relationships to one another. First, they all - being Isra'elites - were familar with the first five books of the Bible, which the Jews know as the Torah and Christians often call the Pentateuch. The whole Tanakh (an acronym, "T-N-K," that stands for "Torah - Navi'iym - Ketuviym," meaning "Law or rather Instruction - Prophets - Writings"), however, was developed one book at a time. Joshua and Judges and Ruth were written as history after the Exodus (which was covered by Moses in the Torah) and before the times of the kings (which began in Sh'mu'el's books). The four books of Sh'mu'el (Samuel), now divided into 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings, were written over time as a history. Although it was begun by Sh'mu'el, it ended with some other chronologer writing its end. The same is probably true for the Chronicles of the Kings in its two volumes. The Psalms were primarily written by David but by others as well. It's a song book that was compiled even after the Captivity to Babylon and Persia returned. The books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are attributed to the wisdom of Shlomo or Solomon. Dani'el and Esther in particular are books written during the years of the Captivity in Babylon and Persia. Ezra and Nehemiah are books written at the end of the Captivity as the Jews were returning to the Land of Isra'el. And, the prophets were given their prophecies at various times to the Isra'elites and Jews to give God's judgments, instructions, encouragement and lessons to learn for different situations. We don't really know where to place the book of Job, which is about a man named "Iyov" ("Job") who some think was a contemporary with Avraham while others believe him to be later in history. After the "400 silent years," the history picks up again in the four viewpoints of the life of the Messiah, Yeshua` the Son of David, the Son of God, called the "Gospels" and the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Then, we have a collection of letters from the Apostle Paul to various churches, the letter to the Hebrews from whom we don't know, the letters from the Apostles Peter, James and Jude, and then the singular prophetic book, the Revealing of the Master Yeshua` the Messiah (the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ). When looking at this Book of Books, we must be careful what we can legitimately link together between books. There are various relationships in play: First, they are ALL inspired by the Ruach haQodesh, but literarily speaking, some books, even if they contain similar phrases, do not go together! For instance, sometimes Jeremiah 4:23 is thought to go together with Genesis 1:2 because both verses use the phrase "without form and void" in the KJV. This has led to certain people making the claim that Jeremiah 4 is about the Creation! However, the truth is that this is simply an unfortunate case of poor word choices in translation. When one reads this verse in context, its meaning becomes clear. Here's the same passage in a different version, the Complete Jewish Bible: Jeremiah 4:1-26 4:1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai, “yes, return to me; and if you will banish your abominations from my presence without wandering astray again; 2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’ in truth, justice and righteousness; then the nations will bless themselves by him, and in him will they glory.” 3 For here is what Adonai says to the people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim: “Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed, and do not sow among thorns.” 4 “People of Y’hudah and inhabitants of Yerushalayim, circumcise yourselves for Adonai, remove the foreskins of your heart! Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire, burning so hot that no one can quench it, because of how evil your actions are. 5 “Announce in Y’hudah, proclaim in Yerushalayim; say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’ Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble! Let us go to the fortified cities!’ 6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon, head for cover without delay. For I will bring disaster from the north, yes, dire destruction. 7 A lion has risen from his lair, a destroyer of nations has set out, left his own place to ruin your land, to demolish and depopulate your cities.” 8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth, lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger has not turned away from us. 9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai, “the king’s heart will fail him, likewise the princes’; the cohanim will be appalled and the prophets stupefied.” 10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!” 11 “At that time it will be said of this people and of Yerushalayim: ‘A scorching wind from the desert heights is sweeping down on my people. ’It is not coming to winnow or cleanse; 12 this wind of mine is too strong for that. Now I will pass sentence on them.” 13 Here he comes, like the clouds, his chariots like the whirlwind, his horses faster than eagles! Woe to us, we are doomed! 14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim, so that you can be saved. How long will you harbor within yourselves your evil thoughts? 15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan, proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim: 16 “Report it to the nations, proclaim about Yerushalayim: ‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country, watching and shouting their war cry against the cities of Y’hudah.’ 17 Like guards in a field they surround her, because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai. 18 “Your own ways and your actions have brought these things on yourselves. This is your wickedness, so bitter! It has reached your very heart.” 19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain! My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! — because I have heard the shofar sound; it’s the call to war. 20 The news is disaster after disaster! All the land is ruined! My tents are suddenly destroyed, my tent curtains in an instant. 21 How long must I see that signal and hear the shofar sound? 22 “It is because my people are foolish — they do not know me; they are stupid children, without understanding, wise when doing evil; but they don’t know how to do good.” 23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void — and at the sky — it had no light. 24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook — all the hills moved back and forth. 25 I looked, and there was no human being; all the birds in the air had fled. 26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert, all the land’s cities were razed to the ground at the presence of Adonai, before his burning anger. CJB The key words are "Dan" and "Efrayim" in verse 15. This passage is not about the Creation; it is about the invasion and destruction of Northern Isra'el by the Assyrians! Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) also warns Y'hudah and Yerushalayim, Judah and Jerusalem, where the Southern Kingdom of Judah lived, to change THEIR attitudes and repent so they wouldn't fall prey to the same mischief in verses 4 through 10! Then Yirmeyahu prophesied of the impending doom of the Southern Kingdom, as well! So, verse 23 is about the destruction of the Land of Isra'el circa 689 B.C. and the subsequent tribute that the Southern Kingdom paid to the king of Assyria, Sennacherib. So, when you equate the description of the New Jerusalem to the believers as a "city set on a hill" found in Matthew's Gospel at Matthew 5:14, you are defying two natural barriers. First, it is a different book by a different human author. We don't even know if it was written and in circulation yet when Revelation was being written. So, literarily speaking, why should they be linked in thought at all? Two different books, two different authors, unrelated subject matter. The only way one could even assume that such a connection was valid would be by one's own prejudice! Second, there is a time barrier in that Matthew 5 was DURING the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom to the Jews, and Revelation was AFTER the Messiah's rejection, death, burial and resurrection when the Messiah's offer of the Kingdom was rescinded and postponed until His Second Coming! An analogy between these two is forced and is purely from the allegorical intepretation of Scripture and not from any legitimate connection between the two ... IMO. The current elevation of the Old City of Yerushalayim is 2,490 feet. That's 150 feet less than 1/2 a mile (2,640 feet). How does that compare to a city that is said to be 1,500 miles high? I don't believe John's talking about an actual brick and mortar city. God's not bound by time Roy, you know that. So when Jesus describes Believers as a city set on a hill, and then the writer of Hebrews speaks of the New Jerusalem as 'our mother which is above' (as does Paul in Galatians), I'm led to believe John is simply referring to the Resurrected Church, not a city. Regarding Enoch: wasn't there more than one Enoch in Scripture? Cain had a son named Enoch, and so did Jared, and as near as I can tell from the text, they are two different men. I could see Cain's son making a pyramidic structure, but not Jared's, especially since it appears that Jared's son Enoch was more devoted to the study of righteousness than things down here.

Retro, I've always understood/been taught that pyramids are occultic. The Egyptians used them; they were certainly no paragons of correct religion. That's one reason I don't buy the pyramid, in fact, it's THE reason. The cube analogy makes more sense. But, since the cube is actually descriptive of the New Jerusalem, and in Scripture, Jesus speaks of believers as being a city set on a hill (like Jerusalem on Mt. Zion) that's how I understand New Jerusalem...as the resurrected Believers of all ages.

What part of 'last' do you not understand? Last means last. Period. There is a final day which will occur at the Father's desire. Even the Son doesn't know when it will occur. I don't mean to be condescending here, but this is as obvious as the nose on our collective faces. L A S T. I understand that it is my understanding that you believe is in error here. To ask the question you do, you must assume that the bible is speaking of a single 24 hour period of time known as a day and on the last of these there will be a resurrection of the dead that will occur. As I have said, I believe the text speaks of the millennium as a day. I know you don't agree. We shall agree to disagree, no? Gary Actually Gary, the Scriptures never speak of the thousand years as a single day. The Greek term chilioi is translated as a long period of indeterminate time. The other Biblical phrases which speak of a thousand years in this manner are these two: Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night. and 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. and are references to the way God sees time as opposed to the way we humans see time. They have nothing to do with the millennium. The last day has been pre-determined by the Father and will occur when it arrives, and when it DOES occur, the events of Revelation 20:9 and following will happen on that day. This explains why you end in error thinking we are in the little season. Agree to disagree. We are not going to change each others position. When one misses the duality to Gods word, they only get half the story. God bless. Gary God speaks in singular truth. It is up to US to find that truth. God is NOT a dualist. I'm giving my understanding. This is what I'm shown in years of study. I don't 'buy the party line' as they used to say in the Soviet Union. If you want to buy the party line, go for it. The end will show which of us is correct.

Ok, just a little final question and then I will leave it at that. If spiritual death is the separation from the source of positive spiritual life, how can a spiritual dead be in the position to recognize and accept Christ as Saviour, assuming that He comes from a positive spiritual life's source. Either there is a wall between this reality and the spirit or there isn't. If there is, then recognizing Jesus is as plausible as seeing colors when you are blind. If there isn't, then you are not spiritually dead to start with. Ciao - viole Spiritual death occurs at the physical death of an unbeliever, Viole. When one who rejects Christ and His sacrifice for their sins, and then dies, that's it. There IS no second chance. Unbelievers are on occasion referred to as 'dead while they yet live' in the NT. In that case, death refers to their unbelief, which is killing them.

The first resurrection is that of the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. It's a specific resurrection given to them. Notice in all the other instances when Jesus speaks of the resurrection, he speaks in general terms. It only applies to those, notice, the writer refers to their having been beheaded and not taking the Mark of the Beast. They refused to venerate the emperors of Rome as Lord and God. The very term 'Jesus is Lord' was a response to the demand of the Roman government that 'Caesar is Lord.' This may also be a spiritual resurrection, rather than body (that is, the martyrs' bodies may still be awaiting reuniting with their already resurrected spirits) as they are given special status to reign with Christ during the thousand years. The Last Day resurrection is everyone who ever lived. I am content to read what the scripture says and to apply to all saints that are with the Lord and all who will be alive when it happens. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit called it the first resurrection and that is all I have called it, he included the bodies and those being transformed so I would not describe it otherwise. The saints killed during the tribulation are their in heaven in their spirits and their bodies are resurrected and they go into the 1000 years reign as do other saints where in the NT it tells us that the saints will rule with the Lord and I believe they must be there in order to do that. Actually, Paul never used the term 'first resurrection'. He did use the term resurrection. John used the term first resurrection and only in Revelation 20, and (as he does with the term antichrist) defines what he means. Those who are in the first resurrection according to John are defined thusly: "Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." 1. They died in a specific manner: beheading. The Romans did this. 2. They didn't worship the beast (the Roman empire) or his image (personified in Roman Emperors) 3. They did not receive his mark on their forehead or on their hands: In direct opposition to Deuteronomy 6, where Believers were told to put the Word of God on their foreheads and in their hands. ONLY these Believers reigned with Christ during the thousand years. Everyone else (Believers of other eras and the godless dead) are NOT resurrected (in any manner) until the end of the thousand years. God chose those Believers to receive that special status. We can't receive it; we are long after that. I can't explain it any better than I have.

Correct, but we're speaking of the day when the body is reunited with the spirit. AllofGrace, Revelation 20 specifically states that the first resurrection applies to those who did not receive the mark of the beast. Since that is something that occurred in Roman times (since it refers to receiving Caesar as God rather than Jesus), it has no meaning to us. The event has occurred for them. They reigned alongside Christ. Since there are no physical human bodies in heaven, I'm led to believe that this was for the martyrs a raising of their spirits to where Christ is: at the right hand of the Father. Other deceased believers, while they most definitely are present with the Lord, did not have the special status of reigning with him during the thousand years (millennium if you prefer). Technically speaking, resurrection is a status as well as a literal bringing to life of the body. The word anastasis which is the primary word used for resurrection in the New Testament. Those who are resurrected are allowed to stand up in the presence of the King. It is something awarded to them BY the king.

The first resurrection is that of the martyrs of the Neronian persecution. It's a specific resurrection given to them. Notice in all the other instances when Jesus speaks of the resurrection, he speaks in general terms. It only applies to those, notice, the writer refers to their having been beheaded and not taking the Mark of the Beast. They refused to venerate the emperors of Rome as Lord and God. The very term 'Jesus is Lord' was a response to the demand of the Roman government that 'Caesar is Lord.' This may also be a spiritual resurrection, rather than body (that is, the martyrs' bodies may still be awaiting reuniting with their already resurrected spirits) as they are given special status to reign with Christ during the thousand years. The Last Day resurrection is everyone who ever lived.

What part of 'last' do you not understand? Last means last. Period. There is a final day which will occur at the Father's desire. Even the Son doesn't know when it will occur. I don't mean to be condescending here, but this is as obvious as the nose on our collective faces. L A S T. I understand that it is my understanding that you believe is in error here. To ask the question you do, you must assume that the bible is speaking of a single 24 hour period of time known as a day and on the last of these there will be a resurrection of the dead that will occur. As I have said, I believe the text speaks of the millennium as a day. I know you don't agree. We shall agree to disagree, no? Gary Actually Gary, the Scriptures never speak of the thousand years as a single day. The Greek term chilioi is translated as a long period of indeterminate time. The other Biblical phrases which speak of a thousand years in this manner are these two: Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night. and 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. and are references to the way God sees time as opposed to the way we humans see time. They have nothing to do with the millennium. The last day has been pre-determined by the Father and will occur when it arrives, and when it DOES occur, the events of Revelation 20:9 and following will happen on that day.

What part of 'last' do you not understand? Last means last. Period. There is a final day which will occur at the Father's desire. Even the Son doesn't know when it will occur. I don't mean to be condescending here, but this is as obvious as the nose on our collective faces. L A S T.

Could you elaborate a little? Sure. Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. And here is the clincher: Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Now, if even Martha understands the resurrection to be on the last day, WHY CAN'T WE?

When in doubt, go to what JESUS said: John 6, multiple times: THE LAST DAY.

It's where we place those events IN TIME, Marv. I don't disagree that these things happened. Also, remember that the word for 'earth' may also be translated 'the land' and therefore referring to the land of Israel. All of the disagreements we have are primarily about TIMELINES and some about understanding and interpretation of language. Would it surprise you Marv, that the actual siege of Jerusalem lasted....5 months? It took the Roman armies quite a long time to build a siege mound and surround the city in order to enter it. Or that a Roman soldier would have had a helmet, long hair, a breastplate and a weapon that could be understood as a 'stinger in his tail'. And the idea of a king being over him from the bottomless pit dovetails with the fact that the devil (dragon) was the power behind Rome. An attacking army of men seems to those being attacked like a locust horde.

This verse is what leads me to think 'cube' and not pyramid. Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic. That's one of the convient things about being a Futurist - since everything is literal and in the future how can anything they say be proven wrong? In all of history I don't find a single case where "All the nations" ever came against Israel. Nor is it possible in the future because there are 196 countries in the world today. There is only one place in history where all of the nations came against Israel and that was at the time of the crucifixion. At that time God brought all the nations against Israel where he condemned them all to death and destroyed them all - spiritually. Spiritual is eternal and humans are just temporal. God is more concerned about forever and worked for about 4,000 years to set up and implement his plan of salvation - this was his most important objective in history. This judgment is spoken of symbolically in Isaiah chapter 63. You can't prove a Futurist wrong when he puts everything in the future, but in the instances that they have set dates - they were all proven wrong. As I have often said - you cannot name even one Futurist speculation that has come to pass in the last 60 years - no not one. And so the credibility of the Futurist is measured from past history and not on their sensational, exciting and spectacular claims for the future. How do you understand Revelation 20, Sonseeahray? I'm not a pre-millenialist, I understand most of Revelation as having past, being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the millennium having begun after that destruction and it also being fulfilled and where we are on the timeline as about Rev 20:9 with Gog leading Magog against us. Most everyone else here is pre-millennial and futurist.

Many things that you do not grasp properly ,,,the antichrist is a powerful person ,that has total control over the governmental system , no one but God has more power...there is NO reason whatsoever that would compel a man of that level of power to commit suicide ...the reason nero committed suicide is soley to avoid public humiliation of being flogged to death by men , appointed by the senate ,, it was nero cowardly way out of being publicly humiliated by being put to death by being flogged to death at the hands of others... ' often the beast is a kingdom or government , but sometimes satan is reffered to as the beast,, the horns of the beasts are kings .. literal human kings ,, government leaders ,,it is one of the heads the dragon is satan , also called the beast ,, you are trying to limit the matter to scriptures that you choose and the others you choose to exclude ,, Where did anyone bring real physical consuming fire down from heaven that was in nero power?? Revelation 13 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, Elijah the Prophet (1 Kings 18....a literal consuming fire !)had a contest to see who could do it , and only HE did with God providing this result ,, no one else was able to it .....in Revelation it is satan doing it to counterfiet the LORD in order to convince the people that he is God ,, it is part of the deception that God allows to punish the wicked non believers that reject Christ and show that Only Christ Jesus is LORD 1 Kings 18 22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.” Then all the people said, “What you say is good.” 25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. 27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention. 30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.” 34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again. “Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. 36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.” 38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The Lord, he is the God; the Lord, he is the God. simply NOT a eupenism ,,again you refuse to acknowledge what scripture teaches.. You need to truly understand the scripture is a literal fire coming down from heaven ,, not some euphemism for worship as you want to think for that is making a false assumption that is not true,, real fire came down from heaven for Elijah the prophet,, it is real and you fail to understand the meaning of 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, very simple to understand ,, it is a literal fire that comes down from heaven "in the sight of men" people can see with their eyes this fire coming down from heaven ,, another reason why the nations marvel/wonder after him and say :"who can wage war with him?" since there is no weaponry that can compete with a man that has such power as to bring fire down from heaven on demand the antichrist is a man controlled by satan incarnate within him .. satan literally operating within a man, not just a demon spirit,, the man of sin... Description of the antichrist 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Revelation 13 4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. revelation 19 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. the antichrist..the son of perdition aka son of destruction,, the man of sin , man of lawlessness are all the same person , just various references of the same man scripture in no way shape or form limits the matter to the "civilized world " that is your misinterpretation ,,, rather it states specificalLY Every Tribe , Every Tongue/language, Every Nation, ALL of them ,, the entire planet of nations .. your crazy idea that this whole matter of sin vs. pureness of salvation,, good vs. evil ,, the whole topic is limited to just a few nations in the eastern world is simply ludicrous ,, it pertains to 100% of ALL nations on earth,, just as Christ instructed to go out to all nations on earth to preach this gospel and make disciples of all nations..."..and then the end of the age will come" and Not beforehand....which shows that this matter has not yet been fulfilled and is still to come ,, it has been declared by the most powerful organizations that all the worlds people be bew implanted witha RFID transponder by no later than 2017 ,, obama wants America done by 2013 ...so it is revealing that this will happen in the near future ,, alowing for tracking of people. The one world religion is forming as well ,, but those like you refuse to see what is coming,, learn about Chrislam ,, the joining of some so called Christian churches with Islam and they allow for other religions to unite with them as well, ,, True Christianity cannot be united with any other god ,, Just because you choose not to learn about how almost all nations on earth are NOW planning or already partners with the New World Order ,, a One world Government system ,,,and for just the reasons you stated ,.,it will all come together soon ,, those are reasons why so many nations are deciding that it be better to have a unified nation of government all united together ,, the global finanicial meltdown among other reasons are bringing nations together on this matter ,, but still you can't see with your closed eyes ,, all this is so very easy to find proof for .. but I don't have the time to show it all to you , but it is there to learn about If you actually wanted to learn of it , here is just one of several posts where you are shown to be in error ,,,and you refuse to admit it I have never read anything of Darby and you will never find any posts pf mine that speak of his teachings....you just look for excuses to avoid the truth...when people show you proof you should learn from it ,,,just as you stated that a literal fire never came down from heaven, I give proof in scripture,Where is your admitting that you were wrong? You are wrong in your concept of nero fulfilling scripture , you are in error among many topics but since you are indoctrinated in false teachings you are unable to accept truth, especially when your false brand of truth is shown to be full of error other people prove you in error as well , you only get angry when your error is shown I see not only that you need to write proper English, you need to learn to read it as well. I never stated that fire didn't come down from heaven. I said it was the PRIESTS (which compose the Land-Beast) who have the authority to bring it down, not the first beast. The facts stand for themselves. You don't understand a word of what I wrote in the post you quoted. So let me help you: Nero is the PERSONFICATION of the First Beast. As Washington's or Lincoln's or Kennedy's name in their times signified America, so the name of Nero signified Rome. Nero being one of the heads, he died of a fatal wound and the absence of leadership cast the Roman Empire into a civil war. It seemed that the Empire might collapse, but another head came along and Rome (the Beast) continued on. This is what prompts the saying: "Who can make war against the Beast?" Even the loss of a leader couldn't destroy the Empire. The second beast (or Land Beast) is the one which had power to bring fire down from heaven in the sight of men. This is what occurred at a PROPER sacrifice in the Old Testament. Fire would come down in the sight of the people and consume the offering. Elijah was NOT a priest. Only priests have the authority to bring down fire on the sacrifices by doing it in the proper manner. Elijah did what he did by the permission of God, even though he was a prophet. Had he NOT had permission from God, his fate would have been that of Nadab and Abihu in Lev 10:1 & 2. That was not a normal circumstance. Prophets don't bring down from heaven, priests do. The High Priest and those priests under him had that authority. The Scripture here merely means that these priests directed worship to Rome, which would be strange fire (and in the end, fire destroyed them).

If you proved me in error, I'd tell you so. But you haven't. All you've done is parrot the teachings of Darby. Darby was wrong. All those who've come along SINCE Darby are wrong as well. Also, you DO need to write proper English. How will anyone understand you if your sentences run on forever and have poor punctuation? If you don't care, well, that's on you.