savoyard

Feel free to delete my account and if it is something i need to do please show me. I'll check in until it is gone. I want you to know that my intention was good and if i offended anyone in anyway or overstepped my bounds i want to assure u i did it in ignorance and with the intention of showing Bible truth. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion that studies the Bible completely and it is the truth. And for those who have one come to their door and want Bible truth i advise you with the deepest sincerity of heart to heed the call and "...take life's water's free." (Revelation 22:17)

the term "born from" or anyother expression talking about the new birth is quoted throughout scripture but the expression "born again" is used through John 3:1-12 and when i said once i ment the expression was only used during those collection of scriptures. How can you explain the Trinity? It is an enigma. These are the facts: 1) The Trinity is entirely pagan in origin, just about all ancient religions employed this dogma 2)The word Trinity never appears in scripture 3)If you believe in the ransom you can't believe in the Trinity because Jesus had to die and be resurrected to redeem mankind, God can't die. 4)Jesus never said he was equal to the Almighty (John 14:28) 5) Judaism was entirely Monotheist not Polytheist like the pagans 6)James 1:13 states God cannot be tried by evil, however Jesus was tempted by Satan (Mathew 4:5-10) 7) I can go on but I have a few questions. Despite evidence of pagan origin why is it believed? Despite the word never used in scripture why is it believed? Despite the incomprehensible dogma why is it believed? I can go on and on but if i say blue you'll say red if I say up you'll say down. There is no point. I thought coming in here this was some chat room about the Bible but it isn't. Never did Witnesses belittle me for my beliefs as a Born-Again Christian, but humbly showed me the Bible. It was a nice discussion but someone on this forum was right, using the internet to share our beliefs other than the website (link to website removed by mod)is frowned upon (i'm new to Witnesses so that is why i was ignorant). We go door to door (Mathew 24:14 Mark 7:24 Mathew 28:19,20 2 Timothy 4:1-5 Acts 20:20) and that is the way the 1st Century Christians along with Jesus Christ did and what we do today. But i did enjoy the discussion and i wish the best for you all

It's interesting you use the term born again. It is a common concept in Christendom today. Yes, I am aware of Satan always transferring himself into an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) In fact he rules the world (1 John 5:19) by toleration of Jehovah and it is temporary (because people choose to follow or are misled by Satan). However the expression "born again" is used only once in scripture in John 3:1-12 John 3:3 states "...Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." This shows the importance of being born again which it is VERY important. However in John 3:13 "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven the Son of Man." Salvation and the Kingdom of God are two different things. Why? Jesus statement would mean (if they were intertwined) that Moses, Abraham, and all older ones of faith would not be saved. But that would not be logical. So they are different meanings. A careful examination of John 3:1-12 would reveal that Jesus in 3:7 was not stating a command, but a fact. Why? The Greek expression "is born again" can also be rendered "should be born from above." This means from heaven from Jehovah himself (John 19:11 James 1:17 1 John 3:9) Also Modern Young's Literal Translation renders John 3:7 "It is necessary for you to be born from above." (Watchtower April 2009) The original language shows a matter of fact, not a command. So being born again is not a personal decision, but God's... you didn't have any say in your first birth did you? Neither do you in the second. What is the purpose? Kingdom of God is God's Government which has Jesus Christ at it's head with fellow rulers (Daniel 7:1,13,14 Mathew 26:63) from every tribe nation and people and rule as kings and priests (Revelation 5:9,10 20:6) as the little flock the 144,000 (Luke 12:32) (Revelation 14:1,3) It takes place as a two way process first the person demonstrates their faith and public declaration as a Christian in water baptism, and if God sees fit, he is born from holy spirit Who are they ruling? The large crowd (Revelation 7:9) who will be on the earth "The righteous themselves will possess the earth and they will reside forever upon it." (Ps. 37:9,11,29) We are researching born-again this month so i had the article handy. But back to the Trinity, we can discuss being born-again later, in response to the evidence what does it show? Personally i have never been baptized. I am going to be in a few months because I've only been a Jehovah's Witness for 4 months and studied the Bible fervently for 11 months, I want to enhance my ministry with more study then get baptized. But I would appreciate if we could keep down the prejudice and follow Paul's custom. (1 Corinthians 11:1 Acts 17:2,3)

i never meant to say Jesus is a metaphor for wisdom and never came to Earth I said he was wisely created and a perfection of Jehovah's wisdom as the first creation (Colossians 1:15). To say Jesus was never real is absolutely illogical. In fact their are secular contemporary and other historians who talk of Jesus being real: among them Tacitus (and other Romans), New Encyclopedia Brittanica, Will Durant,etc but one really interesting is Josephus (37-100 CE): On John the Baptist "To some of the Jews the destruction of Herod's Army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death though he was a good man." Jesus Christ: there arose "a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man...whom his disciples call a son of God." Josephus continued "Pilate had sentenced him...And even now the race of those who are called Messianists after him is not extinct." (Traditional Text of Josephus p.48 Harvard University Press Edition, Volume IX) However more than any secular historian is eyewitness testamony. There were 500 who witnessed Jesus' coming to life again along with thousands of those when he was living. Also we have FOUR eyewitness accounts in the gospels not including Paul's testimony. Also what Josephus said is in harmony with scripture because it was not until later the term Christian was used as divinely appointed in Antioch. (Acts 11:26) To say that Jesus never was real is absurd to the highest degree and whoever says that he wasn't proves his ignorance.

Believe me before I became a Witness I researched (all non-witness, Apologetics.com, wikipedia, Jehovah Witness Cults, etc) every conspiracy theory and every prediction but I found they all contradicted eachother and that some held them in a good light. I used to be a Born-Again Christian and they taught me the Trinity was in the Bible so I believed it. But I was disturbed when I found my church putting more faith in singing and activities than the Bible and that the word Trinity never occurs in the Bible but was derived from pagan sources. Another thing that got to me is why did the translations take out Jehovah's name when it was used 7,000 times in the original text? Witnesses do have a grossly misunderstand reputation. It is not a cult as many (i used to believe that) falsely believe but an honest endeavor toward Bible truth. Every week as an entire congregation we read 3-5 chapters of the Bible a week and finish every year and start over. We study the Bible earnestly, zealously, and with candor, something my old church never did. The Trinity is derived from pagan origins and does not originate in the Bible and was indoctrinated in the 4th and 5th centuries. Note what some sources say: The book PAGANISM IN OUR CHRISTIANITY by Arthur Weigall states: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan." A DICTIONARY OF RELIGIOUS KNOWLEDGE states that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith." NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA states "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." (1967), Vol. XIV, p.299 NEW ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITTANICA states "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament:'Hear O Israel:The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deuteronomy 6:4)...The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies...By the end of the 4th century...the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since." (1976), Micropaedia, Vol. X, p.126 NOUVEAU DICTIONNAIRE UNIVERSEL states "The Platonic Trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches...This Greek philosopher's (Plato 4th century B.C.) conception of the divine trinity...can be found in all the ancient (pagan) religions." (Paris, 1865-1870) edited by M. Lachatre, Vol. 2, p. 1467 Why so? Here are examples: ANCIENT EGYPT: was obsessed with the Trinity: (Osiris, Horus, Isis) (Amon-Ra, Ramses II, Mut) ANCIENT BABYLON:(Shamash, Sin, Ishtar;whom Easter is named after) HINDUISM: (Siva the Destroyer, Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Maintainer) Greek rational philosophy popularized by Plato in the 4th Century B.C.E. There are many more How can the Trinity explain these scriptures? John 14:28 "...the father is greater than I am." John 20:17 "...For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. 1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." The Trinity cannot be proved either with scripture or philosophy (which sadly many try to philosophically) because it is pagan, man's philosophy (Colossians 2:8) and not scriptural. If you wish to discuss this further I would respect if you please follow the model set by the apostle Paul with the men of Athens: that they reasoned in the scriptures and proved by references. Never did Paul resort to name-calling or prejudice. I want the discussion to be on the Trinity only not on religious affiliation because i'm sure some of you may differ in beliefs too and I respect 100% all of you because I see it in my ministry and you see it in yours regardless of our religion: Faith is falling and people are becoming more alienated from God however it will be great when finally we live under Jesus Christ and are united in one faith. You'd agree right? (Acts 17:2,3 2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Found it!! (how to make a reply) Many Christians use the New World Translation in fact note what some Bible scholars have said of the translation: Jason David BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University who published a 200 page study of nine of "the Bibles most widely in use in the English-speaking world." His study was in controversial passages where "bias is most likely to interfere with translation." He compared Greek texts with each English translation and his conclusion was "Most of the differences are due to the greater accuracy of the NW as a literal, conservative translation." He does disagree with a few renderings but he says the NW "emerges as the most accurate of the translations compared." and calls it a "remarkably good" translation. (Awake 2007 p.14) This Study used : (NW, Amplified New Testament, The Living Bible, New American Bible with Revised New Testament, New American Standard, NIV, New Revised Standard Version, Bible in Living English, and KJ) Also Dr. Benjamin Kedar a Hebrew scholar in Israel made this remark on the NW "This work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible...I have never discovered in the NW any biased intent to read something into the text that it does contain."(Awake 2007 p.14) The number of Bible scholars that agree with the NW translation can fill volumes but there are some that don't like it. But the evidence is clear, it is an accurate translation. (there are many good criticisms of the translation in Bible scholars, Biblical Commentaries, textual analysts,Bible Encyclodedia's, etc.) Even though you may not be a Witness, The NW is an interactive fun Bible with thousands upon thousands of inter-Biblical cross-references for entertaining reading. But we don't use just the NW we use all Bible's but because of it's accuracy we use the NW as our translation.

I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say, so I will take this as saying that that Jesus Christ was the first creation, meaning that Jesus was created. If I am wrong, then please, let me know. You quoted Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36, so lets look at the full context of these scriptures. Colossians 1:15-18 (New King James Version) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. I first underlined scripture is the verse you quoted. The second is what it means. In this scripture, being the firstborn means that He was the first of anyone who had died to be resurrected. It does not mean that God created Jesus before Jesus created everything else. Proverbs 8 (New King James Version) The Excellence of Wisdom 1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice? 2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet. 3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors: 4

I am not 100% sure what you are trying to say, so I will take this as saying that that Jesus Christ was the first creation, meaning that Jesus was created. If I am wrong, then please, let me know. You quoted Colossians 1:15 and Proverbs 8:22-36, so lets look at the full context of these scriptures. Colossians 1:15-18 (New King James Version) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. I first underlined scripture is the verse you quoted. The second is what it means. In this scripture, being the firstborn means that He was the first of anyone who had died to be resurrected. It does not mean that God created Jesus before Jesus created everything else. Proverbs 8 (New King James Version) The Excellence of Wisdom 1 Does not wisdom cry out, and understanding lift up her voice? 2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, beside the way, where the paths meet. 3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors: 4

Jesus Christ was the first ever creation (Colossians 1:15 Proverbs 8:22-36)