Servant54

In witnessing I think you should follow the Holy Spirit rather than choose a target market based on statistics. Yes, you are right I have a lot to learn and though I have been street witnessing for 35 years off and on I sometimes feel like it is my first time out. I go by general priciples but need to be lead more by the Holy Spirit..some times that is harder than it seems. Thank you for the pointers. Pray that I get better understanding..I will always humbly except pointers from anyone who feels they have something to share about evangelism.

Sorry it is a short version of Christian. X is Greek for Christ. I do not even know I am writing that sometimes, I am on my bible college alumni discussion board and everyone knows what it means..picked in up during bible college note taking. Just cut down a twenty foot hedge to ten feet tall..came in for a break

But God loves every Tom Dick and Harry. You sound like you have your own agenda in finding that young guy about to get on the bus. Did the Holy Spirit direct you to go out and target a certain market and not have to deal with the rest? I don't mean to sound rude but I don't know what you mean. No, I was not directed by the Holy Spirit, but it makes total common sense that if 68% of all who are saved are kids between 9 and 14 and 28% are between 14 and 19 I should not be wasting valuable time with others..unless the HS does directly me to someone. sometime there is only an older person at the bus termenals we go so of course we share with them. I am not falsely responsible for anyone's salvation. I go where I will be most effective, unless other wise directed. I have been directed to certain people now and again. I hope this answers you question..eating leftover barbecued rock cod and headed to the hardware strore to buy beding plants with neighbor. He just ho nked!

Here is what I think. I think you need to go back and read Proverbs 23..the whole chapter. Read it and read it and read it, you are missing what it is saying and you are being robbed by an improper interpretation of this scripture. It says do not look on the wine when it is red. looking is the strat to drink that is the start to drunkenness..even if you personally may never give in to it. When you were 16 you not only looked on the wine, you drank it. You disobeyed the commandment of this scripture. Whether you realize it or not if this truly is a commandment of God's word you have disobeyed His word. Proverbs 23 :32 "At the last" of my uncle's life it bite like a serpent..."he died" unsaved and ended up in hell..even though at an young age he only had an occasional drink and their was "nothing supposedly wrong with it" for years. I believe a married man is given a wife as a help mate and so many times I have surrendered to my wife my will in a given situation and it has been my salvation..especially in areas where I am out on the proverbial diving board and she has begged me not to jump, because from her perspective she can see the pool is empty for cleaning. We have to sometimes give in to our wife, in laws and other family members somethings we think are ok to be able to keep the family jibbing together. I gave up sold a street motorcycle, when I had small kids because I was responsible for them and had a responsibility beyond my own life. I gave up my liberty for my family not having to worry about me. A family man sees things different that an independent man. So alcohol is something one can lay down even if they have the liberty to drink it......we can be the bigger person in family matters and lay down our side of the contention. Contention in a family is not worth an occasional liberty. Amen? Alcohol is something that does divide families..we do not allow alcohol on our property because of our three boys....if you come to a family picnic at our house you do not bring beer. I did not want my young boys brought up under that aurora. (If someone slips one in we do not say anything, it is a general understanding) . My boys are all in college now and none drink or even think of drinking and they get their Xian friends not to drink, showing them the scriptures. I never have to worry that they are with someone who is over .o8 and driving them somewhere. That is worth any liberty I have I can guarantee you!! I have truly enjoyed the back and forth with you also, you have brought up great points and you seem like a great person and Christian. Enjoy your week.

Servant. You should be able to answer these kinds of things and be well equipped if you are preaching to people on the street and putting yourself as a representative out there like that. You will encounter people from various beliefs and you should be ready with an answer. If you see her again, tell her that God didn't have sex with Mary. When the angel told Mary she was pregnant, she said that she was still a virgin. You can also ask her, since Muslims DO believe that Jesus did not have an earthly father, who WAS his father? You can also ask her why Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old. Young muslim converts are usually naive and there are so many inconsistencies that you can point out to her but you need to make yourself aware of them. When you say you would not answer, how did you respond? I mean this all as constructive criticism so that you will be more effective in your work. You can't just clam up. At the very least, tell them you will get back to them somehow with an answer, otherwise you will be completely ineffective and they will walk away feeling even more solidified in their beliefs because you had no answer for them. Actually I gave a partial story since it was only an example of evangelism sometimes being like a zoo. She was a backslid black gal from the South, joining the Muslims. She actually said "begotten" meant sex and God had sex with Mary. She said it says sex in the dictionary. I said I would have to see what the Greek said. At that point she went ballistic. I realized she was demonized and I do not deal with demonized people when encountering them out on the street. She was not a run of the mill Muslim, they are kind and respectful. So that is why I did not deal with her question. I do not want to deal with every Tom Dick and Harry and their arguments, I want to get to the young kid who will get be effected by the gospel who will be getting on the bus in 5 minutes. The devil wants us all tied up wasting time on his dumb theology and he hires his own to do that I do deal with many who have honest questions and it is such a blessing.

Graceful 801. My neighbor gal is a new Christian and so is her hub. She decided she had enough of him coming home after drinking and went and got counsel. Her husband gave up drinking. His friend are not the old drink buddies but church friends. This story does not total parallel your story but it is similar and had a good result because she acted and acted wisely. My heart goes out to your family I will pray for them.

RED SAID.... But what is the harm in just having one or two? On the rare occasions I do drink, I will usually have either a JD or Jim Beam and coke or a rum and coke...I know my limit and do not go past it (not even close) so what's the problem with that? +++++++++++ I say... Why do you do this on rare occasions? Like I have said before..if say you are over fifty and a mature Xian perhaps there would be little wrong with you drinking one drink. But drinking that one drink you become a drinker. When it is time to vote or give an opinion I see these older Xians holding the door open for younger Xians to enter the realm of becoming a drinker. Would you offer a drink to a younger Xian, his first drink on his 21 birthday? Would you feel you made the wrong choice that night if you later found out he became a drunk at 26 or 45 and killed himself in a car wreck? My christian uncle only bought a 6 pack of beer every other week all through the 1940's,50's and 60's. Later in his life he began to drink a little more and a little more until he and my aunt died drunks. He lost his salvation. He did not even want to talk about God in his retired years. I will bet if someone could have shown my uncle what would have been the end result of his life when he was saved and young, he would have quit drinking immediately and never touched a drop. Who is to say someone is not an alcoholic just waiting to have something happen to a point where they fall into drunkenness. Is this going to happen to you? Probably not...but if it could what odds would get you not to take another drink 2 to 1, 10 to 1, 100 to 1? And what about that kid you told yesterday that it was ok to have a cold one now and then? 2 to 1, 10 to1, 100 to 1? RED SAID.... I'm sorry, have I missed something? I don't think anyone on this board would be encouraging drink-driving. And it doesn't what the person's religion is, no one should be drinking and driving. Faith has nothing to do with it. I agree with you no one here would be encouraging drink-driving, but maybe it would be good to have the facts to be able to discourage it. Amen? I will bet more than one person here has kids, or unsaved friends who drink and drive etc.

They say genetics has something to do with drinking to much. My grampa several generations back got drunk and exposed himself accidentally. It has been such an embarrassment to my family that I decided not to drink any alcohol for fear that something similar might accidentally happen to me being I am predisposed to my family not being able to handle our liquor. I mean can you blame me, do you see why I believe as I do? Would you not do the same and not drink if you had a grandpa like I had? I would totally write of this grampa but he was a good guy and he saved my whole family one time by obeying God and made a ark.

An interesting thought to add to people of Jesus time is the fact you have to hydrate yourself in warm climates. You can not sit around all day and drink only alcoholic drink and expect not to get buzzed or drunk. We have ice and air conditioning..they had drinks only..no ice. There almost had to be something they drank non alcoholic just to get hydrated. I am working in my garage today in 70 degree weather and I have drank several drinks....today in Jerusalem it will be 93 degrees in Tel Aviv tomorrow it will be 100 degrees..imagine how much one would drink to hydrate in Jesus day with only shade as a refuge. And the kids...... what are they drinking in this crazy hot climate?

You sound amazing like another poster we used to have here.... Carlos... Is that you??? No sorry.

Well thank you for your time in bring out the topic, (and the others who did so) you did well. I usually address a certain person in a rebuttal argument in a discussion such as this but my main intent is not to convince the party I am address but use said argument to get the information out. I realize I am not going to convince those with strong doctrinal beliefs to switch sides, but many look on in a discussion to see what the next answer is going to be and judge from the sidelines for their own lives. You can seeming loose a debate but win many on lookers to the truth..and that is my goal. Again I will not debate just to try to win someone who is unwinable..there has to be more to it. It is a lot of effort....specially one fingering it Also as the nature of man goes, it is that some people will be impacted by what is brought forth from God's word and never hone up to it in public, or admit they were wrong or partially wrong or that something said changes their minds..and that is ok...anyone in any ministry knows about this. Trmember Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. We do this in witnessing, someone will not want to talk to you at the bus stop, so you talk to the person next to them and share your testimony or the plan of salvation with the second person and the first person listens to the whole thing even though they rejected talking to you..sometimes they will pipe up after all with questions or their situation. Faith comes by hearing. Another factor is where a person is at. Someone here might reject God speaking to them about some habit...but what is said here may come back to them a month/year from now when they are praying and they here that still small voice. In street evangelism this week, I had two people come unglued on me and yell at me for just trying to hand them a tract..saying nothing to them. A Muslim gal (converted from Baptist) chased me down the street yelling at me three weeks back because I would not answer here when she said"God had sex with Mary, why?" Last week a demonized guy came up as I was sharing salvation with a youth and told him not to listen to me about the bible even though he never heard what I was saying...I said all this to say ..sharing here is a picnic. Again, I am sorry if anything I said sound abrupt or rude or prideful or haughty..I am typing so fast sometime I do not edit by reading what I am say to hear a second time how I am coming across. I believe this topic is one of the most import topics of our day and the evidence is in the readership and the "steam" produced when the water hits the hot iron..even though I try not to be personal, people get steamed..and I understand. I never once had bad feelings toward anyone in this debate....everyone was nice to me. (I have debate with the fruits of the flesh in the past but decided I would never be that way again it only took 35 years )

Smalcald said.. Well I have done the research, so sorry about that. The consensus opinion without a doubt among bible scholars and historians is that the wine Jesus drank, that the early followers drank, that King David drank, etc; was fermented, was wine, the plain words of scripture are indeed true. ...... I say.. Here again this is an opinion only. Watch ......I say the consensus opinion without a doubt among bible scholars and historians is that the wine Jesus drank, that the early followers drank, that King David drank, etc was NOT fermented, was grape juice wine, the plain words of scripture are indeed true. The first thing you would ask me is where is your proof? Where is your research you should ask. See? My next point would be that it does not matter if millions of people have an opinion if one person has historical proof. I have shown proof there was grape juice and people drank it. I have also proved Kings are not to drink alcoholic wine, Proverb 31:4 .... so if David and Jesus drank alcoholic wine they broke the LAW of God. Remember what Jesus said to Satan..it stands "written"..this is what we use to refute false claims. ::::::::: Smalcald said.. Indeed the research shows and anybody who is simply reading scripture without an agenda would see that in the passage from Luke, Jesus was talking about fermented wine. Why else would they have mocked Him as a drunkard and a person who hung with tax collectors? He did hang out with tax collectors, it would make no sense to mock Him as a drunkard if He had one glass of grape juice. John on the other hand abstained from Wine and they said he had a demon. The people were not happy either way, much like today. I say... So John must have had some actual problem if they said he had a demon? This is your logic played back on you and it does not hold up. They invented the demon out of thin air....... why can they not discredit Jesus out of thin air?.......why do we have to ASSUME he had to be drinking or it would not make sense?...does John's demon make sense? No. Smalcald said... Now was wine at different levels of fermentation, some almost having none? Sure it was a popular drink there were many many varieties and grapes were an important part of the economy. It does not really matter because you see if wine was non-alcoholic there would be no warnings against being drunk on wine in the bible. Your logic makes no sense on this matter at all. I say... Who said I did not think there was alcoholic wine available..of course there was. I believe saints in Asia minor(Corinth, Pliippi, Colassia etc) drank alcoholic mixed wine as part of their culture being worldly Gentiles before salvation and then into salvation and when they got saved God gave them space to get rid of that habit as he does us. So their deacon was not to drink "much" wine and their elder(someone who had to have a impeccable testimony) was not supposed to drink wine at all. Now some also had two wives and they could not be an elder or deacon unless they only had one wife...does this mean it is ok for us to have two wives because some super worldly society thought it was normal? If Africans who today have two, three wives get saved do they have to give up their wives?No. Do we then say we get two because they do? No. Do not laugh I have talked to a guy who thought this. Smalcald said... I think the problem comes when we have dietary doctrines such as saying that drinking one drop of wine is a sin, which are not backed by scripture, and were the result of more recent ideas with an agenda such as the temperance movement etc; and then we go looking desperately in scripture for support we get tangled up. I mean your example in Proverbs fully points this out. You claim that any wine is sin by using a passage in Proverbs which talks of gazing on wine, when in the same passage two versus earlier Proverbs states not to drink too much wine. That is fine for you to hold that drinking any wine is sin, but most biblical scholarship does not back this up and of course there are NO other dietary restrictions that Christians must follow, and scripture does not support this sort of "command" either. I say..... I am not saying drinking on drop is sin..I am saying the man who became an alcoholic made a wrong choice when he had his first drink. The man who first gave his son/neighbor/friend (and lead him to be a drunk) his first drink did him a great injustice. A preacher who is not cutting it straight today with our youth because of his little habits on the side is robbing them of the truth. Again Proverb says not to look on wine AND proverb says not to get drunk That is two directives..both are true. You have to hate before you murder so do the scriptures that say do not murder wash out the ones that say do not hate? Most biblical scholars back up what I say...I counted them......kidding Have a great evening barbecuing again...blessings.

Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom. Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall. Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. 1 Samuel 2:3

Smalcald, First of all, thank you for acknowledging this text in Proverbs..it seems everyone wanted to ignore it. The text is between a father and his son. What is he asking his son in the context of "do not look" what does this phase mean? We have to have some interpretation of this phase. The next point is the term "at the last" this infers there is a "at the first" which is described before it. That is what we are dealing with, not what happens later. Two stages..the first and the last, everything that has a last has a first, middle and last...see? Wine does not bite at first is what it is saying..so looking on it is the first thing we do and it says DO NOT DO IT. Do not go there in other words. Now everyone wants to give this some interpretation that does not say do not PARTAKE. If I say do not look at a Harlot what does that say to you?(see earlier text) There is a contrast to the text..the "ways of the father" verses the way of the "sinner"..the father says in verse 26 "observe my ways" and then 5 verses later says" do not look on the wine" a definite contrast. I will deal with this more..off to work Pro 23:23 Buy the truth and sell it not

Hi Servant, Yes that would strengthen the argument it does not change anything, particularly when it says "any other fermented drink". Look to the plain meaning of scripture, wine is wine. The Greek does not say "any other fermented drink" it says oivov kai o'ikepa " wine and strong drink" Yes wine is wine...but wine is not always alcoholic finished wine as you ASSUME. Wine in the New Testament is a product that is NOT finished but is STARTING to ferment in the parable of the wine skins, that is just one BIBLICAL example of a contradiction to what you just stated. It might have a slight amount of alcohol but the wine skin would burst way before it was complete. All grape products are called wine when the NT describes what the Nazerite John is NOT supported to drink/eat. The word is show to be a generic word to describe what is listed in the OT in the case of Sampson, raisins, grape juice, alcoholic wine etc. You show a complete ignorance of history. Many historians of bible times talk about wine that is non alcoholic. Do the research and then be honest. Here is one, I could give many examples but I would be one finger typing all day Nicander says: "and Aeneus, having squeezed the juice into a hollow cups, called it wine (oinion)"- Nott, p78 "TheGreeks as well as the Hebrews called the fresh juice wine" Nott, London Ed. p 78. Bible Wines by William Patton Have a nice weekend.

Here are some interesting things from "About.com". These are not "Biblical" reasons to avoid alcoholic beverages. They are, moral reasons. Should a Christian have two or three beers with friends at the bar, then drive home... when there are so many other beverages available? Total Fatalities / Fatality Rates 250,000 people have died in alcohol related accidents in the past 10 years. Presently 25,000 people are killed each year in alcohol related accidents. 500 people are killed each week in alcohol related accidents. 71 people are killed each day in alcohol related accidents. One American life is lost every 20 minutes in alcohol related auto crashes. It is estimated that one out of every two Americans will be involved in an alcohol related accident in his or her lifetime. In 1994, New Hampshire had 119 total highway fatalities, 42 were alcohol related (or 35.3% of the total). New Hampshire leads the nation with one of the lowest percentages of alcohol related fatalities. Cause of Death Alcohol related crashes are the leading cause of death for young Americans, between the ages of 16 and 24 years old. For all Americans between 5 and 35 years of age, motor vehicle accidents are the number one cause of death. Over 50% of these accidents are caused by alcohol impaired drivers. Recent Alcohol-Involvement Over 50% of all fatal highway crashes involving two or more cars are alcohol related. Over 65% of all fatal single car crashes are alcohol related. Over 36% percent of all adult pedestrian accidents are alcohol related. 80% of all fatal alcohol related auto crashes occur between 8 pm and 8 am. 36% of all adult pedestrian accidents involve an intoxicated pedestrian. Injury Crashes / Collisions Every year, 708,000 persons are injured in alcohol related crashes; 74, 000 of those people suffer serious injuries. About 2,000 people are hurt each day in alcohol related accidents. Two million alcohol impaired driving collisions occur each year. Arrest / Characteristics of Alcohol Impaired Drivers Of every 200 to 2,000 alcohol impaired drivers on the road, only one is arrested. Therefore, the probability of getting caught is slim. Of those who are caught, very few receive a serious penalty. The average alcohol impaired driver arrested on the highway has a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .20%, double the level for presumed intoxication in most states; that is 14 drinks of 86% proof liquor (or 14 beers) in 4 hours for a 180 lb. man. Between 7 pm and 3 am on weekends, 10% of all drivers are legally impaired, in some parts of the country. Most Americans drink alcohol. Over 80% admit to driving after drinking. Relatively few problem drinkers, about 7% of the driving population, account for over 66% of all alcohol related fatal accidents. When drinkers are at the presumed level of intoxication, the risk of causing an accident is six times greater than for non-drinking drivers. Youth Although persons between 16 and 24 years old comprise only 20% of the total licensed population, and 20% of the total vehicle miles traveled in this country by all licensed drivers, they cause 42 percent of all fatal atcohol related crashes. Economic/Societal Cost According to a recent Allstate Insurance Company study, alcohol impaired drivers are estimated to cost American taxpayers $21 - $24 billion dollars per year. National Geographic recently stated that alcohol abuse costs American society $136 billion and 65,000 lives annually. Miscellaneous Admittedly, the United States has one of the safest highway systems in the world, due in part to design characteristics, guard rails, highway markings and signs. We have relatively few fatalities per 100-million miles driven. But the portion of our accidents involving alcohol is among the highest in the world. An accident by an alcohol impaired driver is the most frequently committed violent crime in the United States today. Other alcohol-related statistics show the involvement of alcohol in many non-driving aspects: 40% of all suicide attempts are alcohol-related 54% of all violent crimes are alcohol-related 60% of all emergency room admissions are alcohol-related 80% of all domestic disputes are alcohol-related Stats from alcoholism.about.com

Smalcald said........ Hi Servant, I am not assuming. Jesus specifically said that people criticized John and said he had a demon because he did not drink wine, scripture (Luke 1:15) of course follows suite in this in that it says that John is to not drink wine or any other fermented drink. So we see that wine in this context is considered a fermented drink. I am not assuming, I am simply reading scripture. The wine that John was abstaining from was indeed fermented wine. When Jesus says in Luke: Answer...always check the Greek...... it is AND not OR....... kai. I will be back tomorrow have to run.

Smalcald, I read carefully all the text you provided. 1 Cor11 has no proof of either side of the argument. It does refer back to "fruit of the vine" It is dangerous to base any doctrine on"church fathers". Paul warns against the traditions of man. The fact you use the term "sacrament" shows me that perhaps listening to church fathers is a part of your belief system and so we differ in that. I only get my belief system from the bible and believe all other sources are only hear say. God word warns about adding to it. ::::::::: Matthew 11 unequivocally does not state that Christ drank alcoholic wine. Anyone asserting this believe is doing so by a bridge of assumption. That assumption is.... -All NT wine is alcoholic -Trust what demonic detractors say(winebibber, so he HAD to drink wine) -Jesus drank what the sinners were having -John could not drink alcoholic wine only..so the context has to refer to Jesus drinking alcoholic wine Respectfully I say QUIT assuming. :::::::::: Yes, Gal 5 says drunkenness is a sin of the flesh. Here is a quiz for you. Name which sin mentioned we can do a little of? None. Think about it they all send you to hell..the slope starts with doing a little of them..do you want your children on that slope..teaching them it is ok to drink a little? I don't. :::::::::: I believe OT scriptures concerning alcohol are inspired scripture for today. Wine is still a mocker..it did not quit mocking when Christ died on the cross. Thank you for your sweet attitude. Blessing..heading to eat roast barbecued duck.

That's why I said, "as far as I know." I'm not 100%. He made wine out of water to obey the commandment to Honor thy mother and father... yes. He drank 'fruit of the vine', sure. He never used the word 'wine' when he spoke of drinking anything Himself. He only spoke of wine in other contexts. Yes, He was slandered and called a drunk 'the Son of Man came eating and drinking... glutton and winebibber', but in the context of people also making false claims about John the Baptist. Before Christ was crucified, He was offered wine and refused. As a High Priest, He's commanded not to 'be given to wine' at all. The only places I clearly see wine being okay is when a person is sickly/dying. (1st Timothy 5:23 and a verse in the last chapter of Proverbs) And on another note, should I become a pastor, and she a pastor's wife, I don't think it would be proper to drink at all. Deacons and various church leaders are commanded to not 'be given to wine'. But anyways, I guess the main point is that I feel strongly convicted against it- so even by that merit she shouldn't drink, at least around me, so she doesn't 'cause her brother to stumble' or grieve the Spirit. I'm open to it being okay, but from what I know thus far it just doesn't seem godly. Maybe I've been misinformed. She is only 18 now, so according to our laws she's not allowed as is. What is/are the verse/s that command us to follow our leaders and laws? I thought it was vinegar that he was offered and refused at the crucifixion. I was wrong on this point, it was not wine(that is why we need to check the Greek..my bad) and just researched it in the Greek. The word is vinegar. Plain vinegar. He refused it when it was mixed with gall. (it apparently has a bitter taste and He would have known it was mixed)

The above is the root of my frustration and Servant, I do believe your heart is in the right place, but Christians have a HUGE marketing problem to overcome. We really, really do and I want to do what I can to change non believers views of Christians. I'll have a beer, I'll have fun, I'll make fun of myself and let them know full well I aint perfect and I don't think I am. But I have self-control, morals, values, integrity and I have God and HE gives me strength and peace in times of turmoil. I don't want people to equate my relationship with God with some kind of list of rules like the Muslims have. I want to differentiate myself from all of that. Sorry if I come on too strong sometimes. I apologize if I have in anyway come across as self righteous. We are in a Xian forum with an "in house discussion". I am expressing my views which might rub some people wrong..but that is why we are here to get our corners rounded. I am not talking to sinners but saints...and we are debating a subject not directly telling each other what we must do or not do. I do not care what you do..it is not my business..I am just commanded to preach it as I see it..popular or not. We are all expressing do's and don'ts it depends on your frame of reference if you consider some one else do's and don'ts rigid. Today while evangelizing and handing a man a tract he refused and yelled at me to get away and then called be a bigot (I imagine he was homosexual by his talk and dress) he keep yelling at me also I just said nothing and walked away. I was a terrible person by his frame of reference I am none of the things list above..I am a kind, soft hearted, tolerant, older man 54 and I manifest the fruits of the Spirit to all men and when I do not I am quick to apologize and lay myself low even if I feel I am not wrong for the sake of our Lord. Calling me names as above is called an Ad hominen which is usually what people seem to do during debates to discredit their opponent, usually during the end...I hope we can keep away from personal attacks..thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem I love you all and think mostly highly of you and again apologize if any of my words sounded haughty, that was not my intent.

Stop making up guesses. The wine in the Bible was intoxicating and we know this because there ARE admonishments against getting drunk! But not a single one against drinking. Except to 2 Nazarites and to priests in the Holiest of Holies. That's it, there aren't any others. With hundreds of references to wine, God could have easily made it clear that if He did not want us to partake, He would have. Now if you think God doesn't want us to drink at a drop, then truth is Mohammed did a better job at getting that message across to followers. Yesterday, when someone made the claim that the alcohol back then was 3 percent, I said that is close to the equivalent of a lite cooler. (i think it's 3.5) I just KNEW that percentage would then get lowered! And dramatically it did! I believe in bible time there were many wines some were mixed and some were not. This is history..we can read actual accounts of ancients mixing wine with water. According to the NT an deacon is not to drink MUCH wine. Let is stop and think..is ANY saint allowed to drink much wine?..no. This has to show it would take much wine to either A) get drunk or B] get a buzz on and wreck a deacons testimony. If they had to drink much to get a buzz we can not compare that to todays wine can we. Now an elder is to have NO wine, he is held to a higher standard then a deacon ...it shows a progression away from drinking any wine Now this was not in Judea but was talking to the Gentile church in Asia Minor where the water is brackish and they added wine for taste sake..mixed wines was common among the Greeks and Romans. I believe God gave time for people to come out of old life habits..you did not have to quit drinking the day you came into the church..just like people have trouble with all sorts of bad habits we preach to stop but have to give them time. My neighbor got saved and I said nothing to him about his drinking..he knew where I stood. I would go up to his house and give him smoked salmon while he and his friends drank and said nothing. I just showed him love and grace. Finally he got counseling at his church and quit..he told me and I did not react I just said oh that good. I just prayed for him and God did the rest. I do not go around and tell everyone they need to quit drinking...I allow God to do His work..I just pray and love people. This forum is different in that we are all sharing our views and I feel I have a right to share my view and if I think drink is wrong I have a right to express that view. All I ask is mutual respect and I think everyone here has been very respectful and I thank them for that. Keep up the good work..if you believe it express it..amen?

I base what I am saying on Proverbs 23:31 It says not to look on wine when it is red..etc I believe this is a commandment and until I can get past the fact it is saying that it is wrong...I will believe it. I believe Hab2:15 Woe to him gives drink ... you are filled with shame you also drink! I believe we are kings and priest Rev 1:6 and wine is for neither Pro31;4 Ez 44:21 I believe Jesus was a King and did not drink wine obeying the commandment Pro 31:4.....I want to be like Him I believe an elder is to have no wine..and we are to emulate him Only a partial list its late... I do not care what others believe...... this is what I believe and this is what I will hold to until convinced other wise. Call me what you will (not that you have ) I answer only to God. I live with many people in my community of friends who believe as I do and prosper because of it..so it does not bother me that others believe differently..it does not frustrate me, I do not have any false responsibility for others..I only want to help by giving my perspective..whether received or not. I love everyone and realize we are all in different places in our walk and have different perspectives. God Bless you all and the many good post I have read!

Yes I stand corrected..the next time I see someone drinking something that has poison in it I will just smile and give him a big God bless ya! Yes I am just teasing If I went with how you presented this I suppose I could not judge someone who was a drunk or over eater either. Yes, I guess I could because other scripture over rides this scripture like don't be drunk, so I guess if scripture teaches don't drink then I could judge. Its all depends where ones conviction lie..we get the same scripture on the clean and unclean issue.

I understand your frustration, it is hard to try to get people with two totally opposing views to see eye to eye. I only hope to pull some TOWARD my position if not totally over the line of abstaining. Show what the bible does teach. I have tried my best to present my side in a logical and clear manner. I did recant my position about the wedding guest having to be drunk..I stand corrected..I actually had two theories on that and only presented one...but again they did not have to be drunk. Here is a concentration that might bring us closer in view of this scripture. Suppose the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic in that it was mixed wine, 20 parts water to 1 part wine. Would this give someone today presidents to drink regular wine? Until you can prove what he was drinking I think drinkers of wine today have no case for 'Jesus drank wine and so can I"...just my opinion.

I am trying to get people to see that they can not use the bible passages to justify using alcoholic as used in today's society. I believe the bible teaches we are not to use alcohol as a social aid or as a beverage of choice. You either are a drinker or you are not. When I use the term "alcoholic beverage" I am not saying, as with the Nazerite vow would, that a person can not gulp a bunch of grapes for fear that one might have turned and has some alcohol content. Nor am I saying a saint can not use Nyquil for a terrible cough at night. Yes, you are right it is not about the amount of alcohol but the intent..you can not drink Nyquil for a social lift (some street people have). But also you can not drink the 14% of today by justifying it with the .2 %(made up guess) of yesterday. Near beer and beer are not the same so to speak. If ancient people could drink mixed wine all day and not get drunk or even buzzed then it really is not alcoholic in nature as today's wine is it. I do believe the bible does have to balance out..when it says do not look on the red wine (not mixed) full strength) and then says deacons are not to have MUCH wine(no one is to have much of todays wine) we are talking about two different wines. I believe one could get you drunk quickly and one you would have to drink tons to even get a buzz. Yes, both contain alcohol but are both considered an alcoholic drink..like today's standard. So if people today will mix a 4oz glass of 14% Port with a gallon of water, I will not judge them as sinning if they have a glass