Servant54

Here is the full scripture I quoted from Habakkuk...2:15,16 15

Hey, all I say is answer scripture. Like Pro 23:31 Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it goes down smoothly. (Wine get its red from fermentation) +++++++ I have heard people say it is not a sin to drink, but I have not heard anyone answer this scripture. It is a commandment not to be broken. It looks to me as if this scripture is saying do not look on alcoholic wine to a point that you drink it. (Like looking with lust on the harlot until you commit adultery verse 28) Help me out..show me where I twist this scripture..give me the proper rendering of its meaning. All I ask is that you be honest....if you can't answer it admit it. I honestly from my heart think this is clear text of scripture that proves it is a sin/wrong to drink..(there are others this is the one I am on right now). I have been saved 35 years, get mad at me, call me names I am still going to love ya...I understand this topic creates bad feelings and I expect volatile reactions from people who disagree with me. Its ok with me. I am one of the most squirrely,goofy, silly, wild,funny Xians you will ever meet, I just believe what I believe and it is God's written law and there for I must preach it until I am proven wrong....and I have been wrong at times and changed. Legalism is going beyond God's law. ,

Exactly. Also in the passage from Luke I posted, Jesus said people criticized John the Baptist for not drinking and they criticized Him for drinking, He was making another point, but He said that indeed He did drink in that passage. Also if Jesus took Passover, which as an observant Jewish man He did, and of course we know about the Last Supper; He indeed drank wine, which was part of a Seder meal, as it is today and has been for 4000 some years. But big deal, drinking a glass of wine is not a sin it never has been a sin and was not ever considered a sin until some recent sects in the 19th and 20th century came up with the idea. It is not scriptural to say that an adult drinking a glass of wine is sinful. But of course when I go down that road it looks as if I am promoting drinking and I am not, I just don't think light drinking is a big deal anymore than drinking a cup of coffee is or eating a fatty hamburger is now and then. Well actually drinking a glass of wine with dinner is better than coffee or fat in that it has shown some health benefits. The problem when we start inventing this sort of false piety is that it can lead to forgetting about what is really important when it comes to Christian morality. Anyway I realize we agree. John the Baptist did not even drink grape juice, he was not even supposed to have raisins or grapes. So we can not compare John to Jesus and say ..see Jesus drank alcohol and John did not because John drank NO grape products..none...the argument then falls apart. Jesus eating and drink was just that. They also called Jesus a glutton for eating. They also said Jesus had a demon, but we know this is a TOTAL FABRICATION and so why would we trust anything his detractors said. Passover would not include leavened grape product which is the process for making alcoholic wine. Leaven is a type for sin. There is not sin in Jesus blood the passover lamb. If we copy what Jews do today thinking they are the authentic link to the believing messiah seeking Jews in Jesus day we are in a heap of trouble. Let us allow the scripture to be our soul rule of faith and leave tradition for others. I am not trying to invent false piety..I am trying to stop what is described as an epidemic in our society today and keep our youth from the slippery slope of the mocker alcohol.

First I apologize if I gave the impression I believed all "strong drink" references were referring to non alcoholic drink. I wanted to make the point that the word Shekar in Hebrew is referring to the product of palm sap. It could be any number of different things including alcoholic drink or non alcoholic drink..just like the word wine could be either. Cider is a word we use interchangeably in our society for alcoholic and non alcoholic apple juice. It is the context that define these generic words. In a previous postI listed some places where wine would most likely be used to describe grape juice instead of an alcoholic wine. Even an older dictionary from the 40's says wine can be grape juice. We have to jib one scripture that says not to look at wine with one that says drink wine and the only logical conclusion I can see is we are talking about two different wines, one alcoholic and one not.

The Hebrew and Greek words for wine in the bible are generic. This means that the meaning of the word "wine" must be interpreted by the text, like heaven, wind, or other bible words. Many have gravely erred by assuming all mention of wine in the bible refers to an alcoholic wine. This assumption helps them to build a case for moderate drinking, for if God says alcoholic wine is a blessing or is good who are we to preach a different doctrine. There seems to be more than one type of wine, perhaps several. Some were definitely not alcoholic. History also proves this out, there are many quotes from those in bible times referring to some wines as not having any alcoholic qualities. (The following has a particle list) http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/teach/bib&wine.html Here are some scripture which talk about wine not being alcoholic... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin) Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh) So we see that although there are bible passages that obviously refer to wine as having an alcoholic nature, there are also scriptures showing that wine and new wine can also be non alcoholic. As a side note the references to wine (yayin) is thought to be only finished wine, but we see it used in scripture to speak of new wine(tiyrosh).(wine from fresh squeezed to working and not finished. Job32;19 Behold, my belly is like unvented wine(yayin), like new wineskins it is about to burst Also in the NT... Matt 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine(oinos/ yayin Heb) into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine(oinos) will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine (oinos)into new wineskins, and both are preserved." Luke 5:37 And no one pours new wine(oinos)into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine (oinos)will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. Luke 5:38 No, new wine(oinos) must be poured into new wineskins. Note that the new wine here is not fermented, only STARTING to ferment, most likely just squeezed and still considered non alcoholic as it takes awhile for the juice to have any significant amount of alcohol. _________________

Other One... The bible clearly gives exception to drinking of alcohol for medical use..like Timothy little wine for stomach(if that was alcohol) or the people in proverbs who are dying in pain (Pro 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter.)

History teaches that until Dr. Welch discovered pasteurization grape juice in the mid 1800's you had about a week to either drink the grape juice or make wine out of it, for if you don't it will on its own turn into vinegar. Grapes pretty much ripen once a year and the time for fresh juice is very limited. You do not need fresh grapes to make grape juice.....seldom the grape juice we drink today is fresh juice..it is from concentrate. Go into your cupboard get down the grape jam. Mix some jam and hot water..what does it taste like? Right..... grape juice. Oops I for got to tell you to let it cool..my bad We boil down grapes and make jam that does not go bad because of the high sugar content...we have it in the cupboard all year long. Now you are in ancient times and you have all this grape juice at harvest time......you have kids and kids love jam and juice..would you not boil down the juice and make these products? Of course.....and they did and we have the HISTORICAL RECORD that they did. Here is one historical quote... Homer, in the Odyssey Ulysses took in his boat "goat-skin of sweet black wine, a divine drink, which Marion, the priest of Apollo, had given him - it was sweet honey - it was imperishable, or would keep forever; that when it was drunk, it was diluted with twenty parts water, and that from it a sweet and divine odour exhaled." There is tons and tons of historical information on the internet that the people in Jesus' time had grape juice to drink all year long. There are several ways the ancients kept grape juice from fermenting into vinegar. It is just wild what you can look up in just minutes on the internet..look for yourselves..I have spent hours reading on this subject. Read several articles do not form your doctrine from a couple articles..read like 30 and many counter arguments will melt away.

Duet 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, +++++++++ Now this is an excellent point..God looks to be giving license to the use of alcoholic beverages to His people. When I first read this some years back I was floored, I quickly called my friend..we looked at each other and thought oh no have we been teaching the wrong doctrine? Then I decided to do a little word study, after all the KJV translators were drinkers so they always seemed to color things in that light. So I find out that the word "Strong Drink" is Shekar in Hebrew, it is where we get our word "sugar" from. It is a beverage/product made from the sap of the date palm..much like our maple syrup. It can be translated Strong Drink in that it can be a strong drink, but it also can be a juice drink or made into many products like sugar. I studied this out for several hours pouring over the internet..I even got testimony from an older gal in India who said they had a non alcoholic drink as a kid from the coconut palm sap and they also had a forbidden alcoholic drink from it. Now of course the word wine is also a word that can mean alcoholic or non alcoholic..like ( Is 65:8 .".wine in clusters") So it looks like they were only getting grape juice and date palm juice..or at least one can not PROVE they were allowed to drink alcohol by this scripture. It was one of the most fascinating studies I have done.

"What was Jesus drinking" He was drinking the fruit of the vine..which is grape juice. Remember the typology involved..this was a type of Jesus blood..it and He were without sin..in order to make alcoholic wine you must first allow the grapes to become putrefied, the sugars rot with leaven and become alcohol. The bread was unleavened also as we all know. There was to be no leaven..in the juice or in the bread. History shows they drank grape juice and it was very common..yes there was alcohol around also, but it was not the only thing they had to drink. They had water to drink also..note the scripture about the man carrying the pitcher of water. Wine can refer to either alcoholic or non alcoholic drink..there are scriptures to back this up..(like wine in clusters..OT)

The scripture does not say that what was in the cup was wine..it was" the fruit of the vine' It ".the fruit", like Jesus blood, saw no corruption , it was pure...what a glorious truth.

Sorry I was unclear... I was just being silly...Solomon who wrote most of the Proverbs was Jesus grampa times 25?(I will look it up later) This means Jesus was the "son" that Solomon was referring to in Proverbs 23` just a few generations removed..we are the "sons" also` Jesus was the KING of kings so obviously he was not to drink alcohol as Proverbs states, He was also the prince of peace. We are kings Revelation states so that scripture applies to us also. Again, if something I state confuses you do not be afraid to ask what I mean...Thanks have a blessed day.

Don't drink period. It DOES go against scripture. Proverbs 23:31 says not to even LOOK on the wine when it is red(alcoholic). (Remember all scripture is inspired IITim 3:16) There you go there is your scripture not to drink. Now people say Jesus drank..well then he disobeyed a direct commandment from God here...given by His grampa's grampa's grampa's grampa. People say Jesus made alcoholic wine and served it..then he disobeyed Hab 2:15 Woe who gives drink to his neighbor Now scripture says it is a sin to "murder"..such scripture does not negate others that say not to "hate". So scriptures that say do not be "drunk" do not negate scripture s that say do not "drink"....see. Drinkers promote drinking..non drinkers promote not to drink generally..this is where the line is drawn in society. People perish for lack of knowledge ..we must educate people so they have an answer to give others. Very interesting topic.