OnetrueGod

I apologize Scarletprayers. I didn't mean to sound as if I wasn't interested in your ideas and imput. I thought you have expressed yourself very well on this post and seems that most of us may have had preconceived ideas about the COC, that from what I read...just isn't true. Thank you very mich for your insight. I shouldn't butt in on your comments to Hillsong Girl. I thought you were a little harsh...but I generally agreed with your summation. Again...I'm sorry. Unlike you, I didn't grow up in a COC nor have I ever belonged to one. I have attended their worship a dozen times or so with my friend. Growing up (and even recently) I had been taught that they were a stuck-up, bunch of pharisaical legalists who believe that only those with "church of Christ" above their door were going straght to hell. What I found out was, that was as far from true as could be. They instead were a loving group of Christians who are honestly trying to serve God in the best way they understand God's word to lead them. Do I agree totallyu with them totally...no. I have asked God to forgive me about my sterotyping other believers. I am trying to learn from all groups.

Hillsong Girl , In your quote - "I strongly believe the truth of scripture is clear on this issue and the fact that any Christian still thinks we are required to do something beyond the cross is very scary to me. Yes, getting baptized is something Christians should do, but to suggest that being immersed in water somehow has power to make a difference in whether someone is saved or not...again, very scary to me." You are making our point.[/color] "I Strongly believe the truth of the scripture is clear on this issue" is exactly what those in the COC say for the necessity of baptism and they have their "proof texts" to prove it, just as the rest of us have for our beliefs. I really have never studied with anyone, COC or otherwise, who really taught there is something magical in the water, or even that the "work" of baptism saves anyone. They all fall back to the fact that Jesus saves...period. The controversy lies in how baptism is involved with coming in contact with Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross. In my religious group we teach that must accept Jesus as our Lord to be saved (sinners prayer etc...) Is not "accepting" something a "work?" Everybody I've ever been in contact with in Christianity, teaches we must believe in the Christ. Isn't "believing" something a "work"? Think about it. My COC friend tells me that while they see the importance in baptism, they concur that it is the death of Jesus on the cross and His power to save us or forgive our sins...alone. We do not have this power. I don't mean to pick on you Hillsong Girl. I appreciate the dedication and love you obviously show to the Lord. I have my own "clear" issues in scripture that are not so clear to others, based on their study. If you and the COC don't mesh, then I believe you have done the right thing to find a Christian group that you do mesh with. I don't agree entirely with the COC either, and I don't belong to one. But I have to admit, I admire their confidence in the scripture and their desire for unifying under the simple truths of the Word. I see them as a group honestly trying to serve and give themselves to the service of our King, to the best of their knowledge and interpretation of the scripture. Do they get a bad reputation based on some of their more dogmatic and self-righteous members and congregations?...yep! But I have met dogmatic and self-righteous people from every stripe of religion in my area (including my own)...we're human, we have issues. But we all follow the loving direction of the only perfect human to ever live. We should never get upset for other groups failing to see what seems "clear" to ourselves. Thank you Hillsong Girl for your candor and loving heart. Scarletprayers...ease up a bit...She's not the enemy...Satan is.

Thanks Scarletprayers, Well said. The moment we stop searching and questioning and decide "the way I see it, is the only way it can be, and all others be damned" We will cease to grow and allow the Spirit to work in our lives, and only build more and more walls of division among His followers. Onelight, Thank you for your loving attitude. It is refreshing to finally find a website that seems to try and sweep away preconceived ideas and stereotypes of the various denominations and are honestly seeking to find truth in God's word. I only joined a few days ago on the suggestion of a friend who has loved your site for several years. BTW I wasn't suggesting that you follow the teachings of Max Lucado, but rather read his work to get an idea of where the COC is coming from in their views. It might help you understand the group you don't know much about. Not to mention it's just plain inspirational. thanks.

Hillsong Girl, The "attack" from scarlet prayers seemed a bit harsh to me as well, However, The very complant most people have about the COC is they are so dogmatic about their beliefs that they cannot even attempt to see where another religious group is coming from in their beliefs. Seems that is what you may have been guilty of as well. You stated very emphaticaly your belief (and I stand ready to defend your right to your belief) but it was a though "any idiot knows that baptism is not necessary" message were behind your statement. Note the book of Acts: 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. On pentecost, Peter convinces the Jews present that they have killed the messiah...the Son of God and are lost. They ask the question in v.37.... Peter's answer is in v. 38. Now I'm not here to start a debate on this passage. I know there is much more invloved and many more verses that later and better explain salvation. But Honestly hillsong Girl, Can you not understand why some religious groups put validity to the idea that baptism is at least related to salvation in some way? It's not that the COC, or any other group that teaches that baptism in involved in salvation (and there are many others), just pulled it out of thin air. There is some confusion and room for debate in the scriptures here. My religious group practices baptism, however, we disagree with the COC in that we believe that salvation occurs at the time of belief, they contend at the time of baptism as the binding of the covenant (so to speak). But because scripture seems to show it to be involved in the conversions of many new Christians in the NT, there must be some importance to this. My COC friend tells me, even the most legalistic COC groups don't believe that the water saves someone. They also believe it is not the "work" of being baptized that brings salvation, but simply that it is an outward sign of submission that puts them in contact with the blood (not literally blood = water) of Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for our sins. The COC DOES believe that only Jesus saves, they would only disagree about the role of baptism in this process. I know, I have debated this with my COC friend many times, but I can see their point and where they come from. Anyway, you may have stepped on a few toes there. Be careful and don't become dogmatic in debatable views. Maybe you learned more from some of the legalists in the COC than you think.

Onelight, I really am not qulaified to give a synopsis of COC ideology. I will try to get my COC friend (BTW, he is not by biological brother, but rather my spiritual brother as a fellow child of God) to post a comment about their beliefs. I wouldn't want someone from another denomination to state what mine believes either. I do know, that he would tell you the point is there is no "standard" COC wide beliefs, as each congregation is autonomous. They believe to go only to scriptures for what they do and practice, however, COC's do not totally agree on what scriptures say or mean and there is a wide varience from one congregation to another. Some COC's (including my friend's) have no instruments in their building. But my sister (biological sister) who lives in Maryland showed me a COC in her town that has instruments in theirs. Some COC's simply choose not to have instruments but don't look down on others that do, while other COC's are nearly violent in their opposition to their use. I am a fan of Max Lucado's writing...I consider them some of the best written about love for God and each other I have ever read. If you haven't read his work...read them. Perhaps you can see to the heart of what COC's are about. He is a COC Pastor. Again, I'll attempt to have my COC friend post...but he will tell you he does not speak for all COC's and neither they for him.

I went to one of their churches a few years ago. I was very uncomfortable. They preached they are the only church. They had no music, which is fine. I had a sense that something was walking around the chapel, watching me. I sensed that something was walking around the place, moving through out the building. It was creepy. We talked to the pastor and he was like, "we believe the bible" that was his response to us trying to understand the church, he did not really point to anything specific. I would avoid the place. Lord V... Interesting online name and quotes. My wife and I went and saw the "Half Blood Prince" last night ...great movie! Can't wait for the next one. Anyway.... Here is the low down on those in the COC. I've let my close friend who is in the COC, read throught these posts. I tried to get him to join this website, but he said the last religious forum website he tried to join and comment on turned into a "beat up the COC" forum and he finally got tired of people accusing the COC of being a brain-washed cult who believe they are the only ones going to heaven. I agree with him when he says that is an un-Christ like stereotype of his religion. Are there some in the COC that believe that? Yes...most do not. Are there some congregations that are self-righteous and legalistic in their teachings? Yes...most are not. I will quote my COC brother here (He tells me to save my breath...because it is obvious that the person who started this post and asked the question already has his mind made up about all COC's and all the banter in the world won't change that). I disagree with him, I think most of us on this website are more open minded about such things than he gives us credit for and are not willing to sit back and let a stereotype close our minds....am I right here? Anyway his quote is this.... "The COC came out of a movement to tear down the walls of denominationalism and help us all unify. The only way to affectively do this, is to use only scripture as our guide, throwing out any man-made additions and ideas that are in opposition to the written word. There is a misconception, although there are some in the COC who do agree, that the COC think they are the one true church and the only ones going to heaven. This is because the "church of Christ" is meant to be a descriptor of the people not a name of a denomination. Some in the COC have apparently forgotten this and approach it to mean those churches that have COC over the door. The name COC menas "the church which belongs to Christ...bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus" not as the name of a religious stripe. If you understand how they "should" approach this...it includes anyone who belongs to the body. So... if you believe that your particular stripe of Christianlty belongs to the body of Christ...then you too are a member of the "church of Christ". In that sense can anyone not belonging to the "church of Christ" be saved?" I can vouch for the honesty and integrity of my COC friend as a "God-seeking" Christian. Do we disagree on some matters - yes. But I disagree with many on this website, but I have also learned if I pay attention and keep an open mind, I might learn something. Maybe some of you who have had a bad experience with a COC person or congregation, or like me have been sold a stereotype in my younger years that they are some sort of "stoned cult" will learn...it just aint so! as for you Lord V...I'm not sure where you are going with the "something walking around the place...watching you" please explain yourself. because that seems a bit surreal and maybe just being said to further the stereotype of COC's being a "Weird Cult". Sorry, I do love my COC brother. He has been as good a Christian friend as I have ever seen. He has not beat me up with his opinions, or behaved in any way as a cultist. I guess I got a little defensive. I asked myself why I'm defending the COC and I asked my friend why more of our COC people didn't defend themselves on this website...He says most people have already stereoyped the COC and immedialtely shut down any discussion about unity with them before they ever get a chance to find out what they really teach. I hope that's not the case.

In the eyes of the Jewish leaders of the time of the establishment of Christianity, I'm sure that Christians appeared to be a sect of the Jews. Their founder, Jesus was a Jew, His chosen Disciples-Apostles were all Jews. They would see this as some sort of wierd Jewish Sect with ideas that the Messiah had already come. They expected the Messiah to come and throw out the Roman occupation and re-establish the Kingdom of David...they could not see what Jesus actually came to establish...a new conenant with the people, not destroying the Law of Moses, but rather fullfilling it... This new covenant would be for all races of people, not just the Jews. Paul apparently began his ministry in most locations in the local synagogues. This was probably due to his link to them as a fellow Jew and the Jewish prophesies about the coming of the Christ and a common belief of Jehovah God would make them a good first contact. So as he established congregations in these locations, most of his more experienced contacts at these churches would likely have been Jews. His writings tend to show this as pointed out with his discourse of "to the Jew first". I feel this is likely a reference to the fact that the Jews have known about the coming of the Christ long before the gentile world. I am responding from remote, so I do not have a copy of the Bible with me...yes I know, not a good thing when discussing Bible concepts. But from memory it seems to me that these things were established in scripture... Matthew 23: Jesus verbally attacks the Jewish leaders for not accepting their own prophets and prophesies about the coming of the Messiah. Ending point...God will desert you and leave you desolate. Acts 2: Peter and the Apostles on Pentecost rail against their fellow Jews for crucifying the Son of God and not accepting Him as their Savior. Acts 10: Peter is shown through a vision that God now accepts those in the gentile world as "clean" and Peter goes to Cornelius as the first gentile convert. All of Hebrews: This book is a disertation answering this very question...where does Law of Moses stop and Christianity begin and basically how the new covenant replaces the old and "nails it to the cross". The new covenant is not just for the Jews...but for all men. Christianity, while having its roots in Jewish history, is no longer a "Jewish Sect" but it's own stand alone covenant with God. My 2 cents.

Hillsong Girl, How sad. It sounds like you had a very negative experience with the COC. My close friend, who is COC, has told me that some of the COC's are even negative toward all other COC's...very contentious, pious, legalistic, and self-righteous. I suppose not having a central organization or creed to "standardize" their belief system might breed that. There are also legalistic "pushy" people from every other religious stripe...be honest...all of us can think of such people in our own groups that are opinionated and dead set in their ways and consider everyone else to be just plain wrong...period! I can imagine if some of these people are in positions of leadership in a congregation with no central leadership to soften them...Well, I can see where it could be a problem. I have worshipped with the COC my friend attends (and he also worships at my church on accasion) and I have found him and the others at the COC to be sincere, loving, seekers of God. I have had more problems with a few legalists in my own religion than anybody at the COC. They have also treated me with respect. They do hold strongly to their own convictions as directed in Romans 14, but they also are kind and respectful of mine. I respect those who are confident in their beliefs. I don't believe they are a cult at all...although apparently some COC's are extremely self-righteous and judgemental (as are some in all religions!) I wouldn't have a problem with anyone who wanted to attend there...at least the COC I am most familier with. Just my 2 cents.

It was actually formed in 1800 with the signing of the Cane Ridge agreement between the movements of Alexander Campbell and Barton W. Stone. Thanks Rufus, I'm not that up on COC history...kinda shootin' from the hip there on the date. I am basically parroting a very good friend of mine who is COC. He and all the COC people I'm aquainted with are nothing like the stereotype I was taught that the COC is. Again, I wouldn't want to be stereotyped by some of the people in my own stripe of religion. Stereotyping any religious group is a dangerous and un-Christ like thing to do...IMHO Otherwise, Did I do justice to the COC and there belief structure? I'd like to hear your point of view on all this as a COC Christian.

BTW, If you have ever read any of the Max Lucado books...He is a COC pastor. Does he sound like a "Cold Stoned Cultist" to you? It is some of the most loving Christ-centered writing I've ever read. I'd hate for my religious group to be judged on the actions of a few of my own legalistic members. They'd probably think all of us were cultists as well.

The COC was formed in the 1830's from people who wanted to do throw off the differences of the denominations and unify under the simple message of the Bible. This, I believe, was a noble cause and something we should all try to do if we are ever to unify under Jesus Christ. Sometimes they are called Campbellites because of the the work that Thomas and Alexander Campbell did during the founding of this group. However, they do not hold to that name and actually resent it, because they do not follow the Campbells, merely agree with their wish to unify and break down the beariers of denominationalism...they wish to be non-denominational. However, just as in most of our beliefs, many in the COC began to become dogmatic and legalistic in thier views, and the COC began to splinter into several "off shoots" based on differences...In essence, began to build barriers, rather than break them down. Some COC groups condemn other COC groups based on ridiculous legalistic arguments such as how many cups they use during the observance of the Lord's Supper, or whether or not more than one congregation can work together to support orphanages or benevolent enterprizes. These off-shoots can be very "pharisaical" binding the most insignificant issues and personal convictions on everyone else requiring them as a requirement for salvation. If you happen to talk with one of these groups...watch out! They can be quite insulting and self righteous. On the other hand there are many COC groups who are not this way. Most of the COC I know are kind, loving, seekers of God. They believe in having Biblical Authority for everything they do, thus tend to not disregard any scripture as "insignificant" However, they recognize that they practice some things that are not specifically authorized as a means of expedience (church buildings, etc.) therein is the problem in the COC. Their ideas of what is expedient, and what is not authorized and therefore prohibited varies from COC congregation to congregation. Each COC follows the NT example of Autotonomous leadership and therefore each COC is a "self-governing" entity based basically on the belief system of their elders. So...just because you may have a problem in one community with legalistic and "cult-like" behavior, you may go to the next COC and find a congregation of loving Christians who would have no problem with worshipping with you or accepting you as their brother/sister in Christ. While many COC's do not have instruments in their worship (they all have "music" ... a cappella) there are some that are called "Instrumental Church of Christ" The Christian church broke away from the COC in 1906 over the Instrument question...but because COC's are autonomous, some decided to keep instruments and the COC name. So...to end this novel. You really can't say the COC believes this...or The COC believes that. They are a group of a very wide and various beliefs. There really is no website that speaks for all COC's, so beware of quoting such...the COC next door may not believe that way at all. I hope this helps dispell any confusion. There is no creed in the COC like there is in our churches...they are definetly not in total agreement about all of their lines of argument...especialy in the "onlt ones going to heaven" none of my COC friends believe that...though I'm sure you can find some that do.