WolfBitn

youre right... and most people are trained to defend a right hand attack, and how to attack a right hander. Thats why south paw boxers are considered formidable if they have any talent at all

.

...and thought, why did God put these details in His Word? Do you think that everything in the Word has some meaning? I know it is dangerous to read something significant into everything, we should not seek to find symbolism that isn't there for example. Other examples of seemingly spurious detail is left-handedness... ... although I have since discovered that this is an advantage in warfare. So, do you think it is all there for a reason? Or are there parts in the bible that exist merely as fillers? Hiya Aussie I think that scripture is true when it says ALL scripture is given by God and is profitable. I believe every word is significant, not neccessarily in translation, but at least in the original... Youre right too that we shouldnt try to read into it, this can be dangerous and its sometimes how cults are sprung up. On the other hand these details may not be meant to sinping in everyone, but maybe it is meant to inspire just one or 2 people throughout all of history ina single decision ini their lives.

2 things 1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world. 2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last". And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump. Actually Massorite i dont think that sounds nutty at all. Why wouldnt God protect and feed His children in the same way? I love the studies from the old to the new. So many people try to seperate them as if one WAS Gods word and its passed, and now we have a NEW God's word and this robs them of so much more deeper knowledge. I submit its ALL Gods word and not one jot has ever passed from it. We surely wont be able to depend on anything but death from mankind, thats an excellent point. In that day we need faith. As for the hidden manna, why should God reveal that which isnt needed yet? Hes not a showoff at all lol.. I agree with you its hidden until that day and i dont doubt one bit many will eat of it because we are His.

Amen Massorite, Not only do these abuses occur daily, if we remember it is also how our church was began... under great persecution first from the Jews and then the Romans. Gods children have always been subject to Gods discipline, but never His wrath. Many times through history of the Hebrews we see where they apostacized and God disciplined them with persecution. Persecution has many times been the remedy for apostacy. It drives out the hypocrites and humbles the true child of God. Not only this, but put another way, His children have never been the subject of GOD's wrath, but we have always been subject to the wrath of man... and even then a remnant is always miraculously protected and endures.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved". Amen Massorite. Now lets put Daniel 12 with Matthew 24 So we see that in both cases this is the time of trouble like the world has never seen.. and we are gathered at the signal of the trumpet... which neccessarily HAS to be the LAST trumpet. 1 Cor 15 51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). and this is AT HIS COMING 22For just as [because of their [c]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [d]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive. 23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming. So so far this ties in Dan 12, Mt 24, and 1 Cor 15:19-21 and 50-52 4 passages

This "lefty" happens to be strong believer in the proper discipline of children. I even discipline other people's kids when they won't. What gives you the right to discipline someone elses kids? The abdication of their parent's responsibility. It's not like I pick them up and spank them or anything. But I will let them know in no uncertain terms their behavior is inappropriate. I don't think that's illegal. yet. you're WHINING at the kids then, thats not discipline, and as soon as they turn the corner they are laughing at you...

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this? We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be. Daniel 12 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Are those the only verses you have? How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ. Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter. Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered. It still doesn't follow that all of these verses are connected and point to a single event to the exclusion of all others. Show me the connection. Otherwise, you're engaging in eisogesis. No no... IT follows, you arent, and its so simple. Thats what stinks about seminary. All too often all one comes away from them learning not to believe what the bible literally says. Far too many, have lost their innocense in many cases and no longer remember how to simply read and then believe like a child

Are those the only verses you have? How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ. Then why not put them out there for people to see? What can it hurt? If anything, it will strengthen your stance. How many passages have been listed already? theres far too many to put even in 10 posts. The case needs no more strengthening because we already have FAR more than 2-3 witnesses in scripture itself listed, EXPLICITLY showing that we are raptured at the end. Therefore this and this alone is sound rapture doctrine because God Himself is plainly speaking here and testifying these things will happen as written but heres some more just for you Revelation 16: [12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. [13] And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. [14] For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. [15] Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. [16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. [17] And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. The above passage occurs very near the end of the tribulation. The events occurring here take place between the 6th and 7th vial. At the 6th vial the Euphrates river is dried to make way for 200,000,000 oriental troops. Not just the Chinese are involves, these are the KINGS, plural, of the east. In verse 13 Satan

Excellent passages Colleen. Kudos Concerning the 1Cor 15:50-53 passage, concerning the last trump, I like putting Rev 11 side by side with this 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Rev 11 shows us the very last time a trumpet sounding in the entire book of revelation... the last trump, and we see this is the time the saints are rewarded Revelation 11:15-19 [15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, [17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. [18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. [19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. This is the 7th trump as it is sounded. Here we see as 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 verified, that at the 7th trump the dead are judged and the saints are rewarded. Now consider closely verse 15. We are told outright again, that this is the time that Christ takes the kingdoms of the world.

Are those the only verses you have? How many verses do you need? "AFTER the tribulation of those days" is as clear as it gets. But the pre-tribbers don't want to go there so they dance all around it with all kinds of other scriptures that are no where near as clear as that one. But there are several more verses that say the same things about how the tribulation will start before the return of Christ. Problem is, it doesn't follow that all these verses are talking about the same event. The assumption is that just because these passages use the word tribulation, trouble. etc, they are speaking about one particular event to the exclusion of all other events. That's a non-sequiter. Then youre only reading half the verse. Dan 12 for instance states that its at THIS TIME (armageddon, the worst time this world will ever see) that everyone written in the book is delivered.

i LOVE your signature

Yeah, some people don't read long posts. I know I rarely do. The verses you gave were good. Other than rapture references, do you have any verses that would indicate that the believer will be here until the very end? I think Daniel 11:40-12:2 does that to a pinpoint... but i have several more tha all say the same thing. We go through the trib and we arent delivered until the end Daniel 12 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.