Scare Bear

Tonight's the last night! Hope you guys can tune in via the internet! It starts at 7pm central time.

Jesus is speaking of baptizing in water here, not in the Holy Spirit. Only God can baptize us with His Spirit, we can not. The blood of Christ comes far before any water baptism does, not because of water baptism. It seems you have taken it hook, line and sinker that water baptism is necessary for salvation, which in fact, it is obedience to God. What do you thing is meant by these scriptures? Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Interesting. You say that one either believes the Word of God or man's yet in almost the same breath state that His Word disproves young-earth theory. So which is it? God's Word or man's word?

One accesses that blood by being baptized Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Let me ask you, how could Jesus command us to go and baptize people in the Holy Spirit if that's something no human can do?

It's still going on right now for those who want to check it out: Worldwide Gospel Meeting Click on the "view live stream here" Every night through Friday night at 7pm central time.

What Baptism does: Washes away sin Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

They were born under the old laws... baptism is a symbol that represents Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Jesus was not born to this earth yet.

Let me ask you something, what does 1 Peter 3:21 say? What does John 3:5 say? I think those verses indicate it is scripture.

For those interested there is a worldwide gospel meeting going on right now. You can view it streaming live on the internet right now and for the rest of the week starting at 7pm central standard time. Go here and click on "view live stream" Gospel Broadcasting Network Go unto all the world and preach the word!

No one is saying you are saved because you visit the sick, or feed the hungry (or trying to obtain salvation by doing those things)... you are saved because you are obeying what God commanded you to do. If God told you to be baptized, you wouldn't be saved until you did it right? After that we are to live righteously, we are commanded to help others, not for us but because we love God and we want others to come to know and love God too. There is no set number. You just go and do. If you can make people laugh then go and do it, bring laughter to others. If you have time to visit the sick or feed the hungry then when the opportunity comes take it. There is nowhere in the Bible it states that your good deeds counter your bad ones. When you ask forgiveness for the wrong you've done God forgives and then you go on your way to continue to do good. And you are right "I will show you my faith by my works" but simply having it does not make one saved. Simply believing does not make one saved, you still have to obey.

But you keep saying nothing we do will save us. I'm just using the arguments you're giving me. First you say we have nothing to do with our salvation then you say we do? Which is it? Ok, but is not believing something you DO? Does it not take a mental effort? Technically it could be a physical process because if your brain is not working (you know, the pulses and reactions that take place in the mind that allows us to think and move) then you can't believe (or do much anything else). Maybe we should read the verses one more time and let me point out something to you... Matt. 7:21

So Noah didn't show his faith by building an ark? There have been people who had gotten on drugs and lived a rough lifestyle... are you saying they're not qualified (after they've cleaned themselves up) to offer advice and tell people that the road they took should not be the same one others take? Exactly, if one is doing those things and professes to be of Christ it's the same as those "false prophets" mentioned. "Works always demonstrate faith." Agreed. James 2 ...I will show you my faith by my works. You're thinking is that there must be a set number of deeds. That's not the case. We are just told to do. If the opportunity arrives we must take it. Jesus said in Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand,

Again if you play no part in your salvation then what's this "believing and having faith" stuff all about? Is it not your decision that could ultimately save you or condemn you? If an atheist came to the light and said "I believe now" would he be saved by his admission + God's grace? Or was God simply gonna save the atheist all along? For the record, if you want to discuss with others you might want to stop with the ad homs. Calling someone mentally dull is not a good way to win them over. So believing and receiving is something you must do. A work. A work is defined as something one does, whether it be physical or mental. Ok but an "average Christian" or someone who claims to be Christian can say, well, we'll all get to heaven no matter what we do, we just need to be good. Would that not be a false doctrine? A false Prophet? Not everyone that says to Him Lord, Lord will see heaven. They said "Haven't we prophesied in YOUR NAME?" That verse indicates to me that there will be people who claim to be Christians and who earnestly think they're doing right but won't get that crown. So Believing is not something you do? It's not a verb? But you still need to have that faith... that's your part. Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men,

And go on your way rejoicing as the Ethiopian Eunuch did AFTER he was baptized in water. Ummm, in 1 Corinthians 1:17 Paul said "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." That's a strange thing to say if baptism was included in the Gospel. And if you look in the Bible there were many people who were saved apart from baptism: The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50) The paralytic man (Matthew 9:2) The publican (Luke 18:13-14) The thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) They all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the Apostles being baptised, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins. (John 15:3) And in Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were saved before baptism. Hi wyguy, Here again, is an opportunity to use others' debate tactics. Their sins were forgiven when, as of then? How about any future sin? How is it that Cornelius was saved before baptism? He had the Holy Spirit upon him and his household? How about all those in Samaria who had been baptized, but the Holy Spirit had not come upon them? Peter and John had to go up and lay their hands on them? What gives about that? The gift of the Holy Spirit that we receive today isn't even manifest as it was in Cornelius' situation, so how can it be argued that the manifest seal on Cornelius is the same as it is on us today? e.g. speaking in tongues. As far as the first point goes, Paul was sent to preach the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) and you are correct baptism isn't a part of that. Yet that doesn't nullify the need to be baptized. Paul had to sow the seed and water before the increase would come. The only way baptism would have been of any affect would have been for the hearers to have faith to be obedient. It should also be noted that if you look at the verses before verse 17 in 1 Corinthians 1 you'll notice something 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. He didn't baptize people because he knew it would cause division. He didn't want people to feel more important than others because they were baptized by him or others. Besides, it's not who does the baptizing that's important it's the person getting baptized that is.

I know where he's coming from, I do. I'm just showing him how his thoughts can be misunderstood by someone who may not know anything about the Bible. If we are saved by faith only then everything the Israelites ever did, whatever we do has nothing to do with our salvation then we might as well throw up our hands and live as we want, as long as we believe and have faith. God told the Israelites to obey His commands and they would be rewarded. Look at the wall of Jericho! Look at all the enemies they defeated when they did what God told them to do! They were saved in those respects by having faith and obeying God. Noah was not saved first, he was found favorable in the Lord's eyes so He commanded Noah to build an ark and he and his household were saved by obeying, not saved simply by believing. There is a part you play in your salvation, you can either accept it or reject it you can do as God commands or not. But what Shiloh is presenting could be seen as you're saved only because you believe in Christ and that's not at all what the Bible presents us with. You can look for yourself if you like, look at all the times someone was saved (whether it be spiritually or physically) they were told they must DO something. The leper told to go dip in the Jordan 7 times, Joshua and the Israelites told to march around Jericho, I mean the Bible is full of examples of people told to do something to be saved (along with God's help!) That's what I'm trying to get people to see. No it's not works only, no it's not faith only, it's not God's grace only, it's all of those things combined which makes a person saved.

I'm not trying really hard, you're making it really easy for someone to twist it if they don't have a hard grasp on the idea. I'm merely pointing out how flawed the thinking is. You say we have no part in our salvation (that would indicate everyone will be saved regardless). But then you say one has to believe, well it's up to the person whether to believe or not so salvation isn't completely up to the Lord, you have to make the decision and if you don't then you're not saved. That requires an action on your part. But in order to "get" saved an action must take place. Believe is a verb, it's something you do. The argument you are presenting makes it really easy for someone to see that. "Well, if I have nothing to do with my salvation then I can do whatever I want." Now you're saying that obedience is required... that's an action on your part isn't it? Obeying is a verb as well... an action one must take. False prophets, that could be the "average Christian" could it not? A person can say they are a Christian but it doesn't mean they are. There will be people in the day who claim they are but will not get a crown of life. I don't doubt some of the heaviest believers, (those who go to church etc.) will be told to depart. So yes, for the true Christians, that message will have no effect, but to those who claim to wear the name Christian won't have such a nice fate. Again see the above statements, I'm not putting words in your mouth, you're doing that on your own. I'm merely pointing out that someone who has no clue could see that they don't have to do anything and that seems to be what you have been implying, that our faith AND our works won't save us, just our faith which has been pointed out that both need to go hand in hand. He still accepted them though. Then why did God tell them to do these things? Why did the Israelites gets punished for disobeying God? Further more those who did what they were told who died under the Old Law was taken care of by Jesus' blood. Remember, their sins were rolled forward each year. Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Yes I understand that verse, through faith, we must do our part. Our works alone will not save us but our faith and our works. Exactly, which is why you need faith as well. But it begs the question, why were the Israelites told to obey the laws given to them? Why were they punished when they didn't follow those laws? If you weren't obedient to God's word you wouldn't be saved, so I don't know where you're getting this you're already saved then you are obedient. One is told to believe... you have to obey that command before you can be saved right? Your not saved then you believe right? So why do you say that obedience comes after one is saved, it should come before that right? A work would be considered a verb... something you do, it can either be physical or mental. Believing is a verb as well as running and jumping. So believing is a "work." Exactly, but you still have to want to be saved. YOU have a part in that. There's different levels of punishment? I thought there was only one, eternal punishment in a fiery place with weeping and gnashing of teeth. There's two different thrones? I thought there was only one? I mean I know there's symbolism in the book and not every throne refers to Christ's judgment seat but I didn't know Christ had two seats? In Revelation that verse is not talking about those who are saved, it is talking about the day of judgment ALL according to their works. If He meant Christians only I'm sure the distinction would have been made. But I have a feeling if I got into the symbols etc. this would get us into the whole Tribulation/Rapture thing and that needs to be discussed in a totally separate thread.

So then by your own words, an atheist will get to heaven. When you try to tell someone about Jesus and then tell them all they need to do is believe to be saved then things could get a bit hairy. The person might think, well all I gotta do is believe and I'll be fine, I can continue to smoke and drink and cuss and be alright. See that's the message you are presenting, just kick up your heels and let God do all the work but the only problem with that is you still have a part to play in your salvation. You seem to dance around that and put responsibility off. Jesus said (pardon for paraphrasing)"those who say to me Lord Lord... have we not prophesied in thy name etc. depart from me ye workers of iniquity" Just by His words we do have a part in our salvation. A PART, I'm not saying it's all up to us but we do have a say so if we want a crown of life. 1 cor. 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.... 13 each one

If you have 6 minutes of your time I believe this guy can tell you exactly what I have been saying Twisted Scripture See the last post acts 26:20 So are you trying to tell me that he would have been saved even if he decided not do these things? They weren't saved yet. Yes faith moved him but he still had a task to complete. Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? (law of Moses)No, but by the law of faith. (law of Christ) 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Paul is speaking about the Jews at the time who boasted that just because they were of Abraham that they already had a free ride to heaven and he was telling them this was not the case. Back up to Romans 2:25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. You continue to tell me to look at things in context, well I suggest to read the chapters before and after to get a complete view of what Paul is actually saying. So if their works condemn them then so their faith AND works would save them wouldn't you say?

You just said you have to make the decision to receive the gift. That is a work on your part. If you don't decide to do so you can't be saved so yes, you do have a say so in your salvation, you can either accept the gift or turn it down. You can still later in life choose to continue with the gift or turn it down. I just find irony in your statement when you say "You have nothing to add to the work of redemption. You have nothing to contribute to the plan of salvation." Yet Jesus and His apostles and you have said one needs to believe and have faith. That contributes to your salvation does it not? That's a work on your part isn't it? I am not saying that you alone can save yourself. I am saying that you do have to obey God's commands and if you don't you cannot be saved... Noah was not "saved" first, he still had a task to complete. If he didn't do it he would have been lost. Yes because of faith we are to obey the commands given to us but we are not saved simply by faith. It's like the story of the man drowning in the river and he prays to God to save him. A man on a boat passes by and asks the other man if he needs help and the man replies "no thanks, God will save me." After about 2 more boats the man finally drowns and when he asks "Why didn't you save me?" he is told he was sent 3 boats. That man could have been saved not only by his faith BUT he also had to get in the boat. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Acts 26:20 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. We ALL will be judged according to what we have done, good or bad.

Oh hi! lol I'm sorry I didn't respond. It gets crazy sometimes. I'm very well, how about yourself? Thank you for welcoming me here. I have been a Christian well, I was baptized at 14 but fell away for quite sometime and about 2 years ago I decided to pick up the pieces and come back. I am a member of the church of Christ.

Those verses do not indicate that. Let's break down verse 9. "not of works, lest anyone should boast." Lest anyone should boast... It is saying that we are not saved of boastful works. There are no works that we can do that we boast about them. James 2:24 goes on to say You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Those verses go hand in hand. And as it was mentioned, The bible was not written in verses, these were written as letters, therefore they all flow together when you understand the bigger picture. But Abraham still had to do these things, it was his choice whether he went through with them or not. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Must believe that He is... well that's an action isnt it? If Abraham chose not to give up Isaac would he still have favor in God's sight? What about King Saul? He was chosen by God yet he *chose* not to obey God's commands. Faith alone does not save one but I do agree faith does push us to be obedient. But you still have not given me a verse that states we are obedient because we are saved. If they have nothing to show for it.... would you agree that a work would show that? In order to be saved, you have to believe and you have to have faith, that we can agree on. But that requires who? Does Jesus believe for you? No you'd say I was off my rocker. You have to believe so that requires effort on your part wouldn't it? So being saved isn't completely up to Jesus you have to make the decision to believe right? But in order to become saved one has to be given a commandment. You talk a lot about faith, would you doubt for one minute that if a person truly truly wanted to be baptized that God wouldn't allow them some way of being baptized? What if one of the spokes broke on the eunuch's chariot? If we have faith in God He will provide us a way to be baptized. How do you know they were in the desert? I'll have get more info for your plane question because I do not want to say something wrong here. But you have to believe before you can be saved don't you? You need faith before you can be saved don't you? And you need to continue to believe and have faith so in order to continue to walk that path it requires an action on your part right? Jesus can't continue to believe for you after your saved, you have to do that on your own.

With Shiloh357. The statement that was given was "No, it is simply Jesus being seen through you. But in another sense, you WANT Jesus to take over because frankly you are not good enough to live the Christian live under your own strength." Talking I believe about Jesus coming into you and basically taking control? I dunno how to answer this one.

Can you provide me with the verse that states children are born into sin and where they are covred by God's grace?

Where does the bible teach we are obedient because we're saved? But they accepted Jesus though. By your examples they are saved. Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,... Sounds to me obedience is needed as well. Can you point to the verse that indicates this to be truth? Well that's a warped sense. I'm sorry to say that but it does not make sense at all. If God gave you a commandment and you didn't obey it, you went against God's commands... you went against God. Those who are against God are not of Him and have no hope of eternal salvation. Those who DO the will of the Father will see heaven. If God told Noah to build an ark and Noah did not obey, he would have been lost. God's commands always have something to do with salvation, whether it be ours or other's. But if he was not guaranteed tomorrow. In fact we do not know what happened after this, the eunuch could have been killed later that day or week... and he would have been lost because he did not follow the command given to him. Besides, there is always a means for someone to get baptized if there was no water there they would have found some place that did. Such as? Only because you are not willing to be honest about what it means. Well I would still appreciate it if you could show me the verses that distinctly show one person was baptized with the Holy Spirit only and another was baptized with water. Psalms 106:37 They even sacrificed their sons And their daughters to demons, 38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood. 39 Thus they were defiled by their own works, And played the harlot by their own deeds. If a person is defiled by their own works wouldn't it be true for the opposite? A person is justified by their works as well? Ezekiel 18:21