missjenny

Yes, it was by the Spirit of God. "For the truth of God is known to them extinctively; God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the beginning people have seen what God created. Therefore they have seen His invisible qualities, eternal power and divine nature. So, they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:19-20

The way I see it is that there are only two ways to deal with sin/unrighteousness. Carnally -- law, rules, bodily disciplines, trying and trying and trying - or - Spiritually -- God's ways, which does take faith because it puts us into the Spiritual realm. Galatians 5 does put it wonderfully. The flesh only produces what is carnal and for self-interest. So, any thing I try and do by self-restraint is like using the flesh to deal with the flesh. It just doesn't work...at least for a long lasting effect. HOWEVER, the Holy Spirit produces in us His character through walking in His ways.... Carnal produces carnal. Spiritual produces Godliness...or Christ-likeness!! I can almost see (I am very visual) the Holy Spirit standing by as He watches as we wrestle with ourselves, getting nowhere. God wants us to understand that His ways do not feel or seem natural or even effective to our carnal minds...but they are. They are powerful!! The fruits of God working in us produces powerful effects!! (Gal. 5 :16,17,22,23,25) God is not into "God helps those who helps themselves" to acheive Godliness. Either we struggle on our own, or we give over control. It's kinda like the scripture that says that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Having one leg in both worlds just doesn't work. When I am agape-loving those around me, then I won't be consciencously harming (sinning towards) those around me. When I am in the process of being a peacemaker, then I just won't be quarreling and causing problems. When I am watching for opportunities to be kind, then I will not have the mindset to be mean...and so on... Light quenches darkness...they cannot both be in existence together. When I agape-love, I cannot conscienciously cause harm. One cannot exist with the other. Therefore love fulfills the law and produces Godliness. Walking in the Holy Spirit...especially thru daily intention and experience...the power of the flesh begins to fade and doesn't have it's influence anymore. I love this kind of life!! Looking for opportunities to love and be kind is so much fun and does have a profound effect on both the lover and the lovee. Focusing on Someone bigger and more powerful then you are...the Holy Spirit...becomes the only remedy. One can also look at it this way....that when I set out in the morning with my focus on acting more like Christ...then it will be very difficult to act contrary...and it gets more difficult as time passes and more natural to follow the HS's lead. There will always be the conflict (Gal. 5:17) but the HS is more powerful and will cause much success as we use this freedom (from the laws demands) wisely. Thanks for reading.... P.S. Living this way takes us out from underneath the need for the law/rules....as loving others fulfills the law's requirements. (vs 14 + 18)

I agree with what you're saying, but the key to your message is "focusing on the Holy Spirit". Not everybody does that. When we take our eyes off the Lord, we start straying. Galatians 5:25 - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Exactly. Read that entire chapter. I'm sorry man, I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I guess I need clarification...... I guess what I'm saying is, there more to the Gospel than simply saying, "I believe". Galatians 5 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this:

I agree with what you're saying, but the key to your message is "focusing on the Holy Spirit". Not everybody does that. When we take our eyes off the Lord, we start straying. Galatians 5:25 - If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Exactly. Read that entire chapter. I'm sorry man, I am not sure what you are trying to say here. I guess I need clarification...... The way I see it is that there are only two ways to deal with sin/unrighteousness...law, rules, bodily disciplines, trying and trying and trying - or - God's ways, which does take faith because it puts us into the Spiritual realm. Galatians 5 does put it wonderfully. The flesh only produces what is carnal and for self-interest. So, any thing I try and do by self-restraint is like using the flesh to deal with the flesh. How will this work?? It doesn't...at least for a long lasting effect. I can almost see (I am very visual) the Holy Spirit standing by as He watches as we wrestle with ourselves, getting nowhere. God wants us to understand that His ways do not feel or seem natural or even effective to our carnal minds...but they are. God is not into "God helps those who helps themselves." Either we struggle on our own, or we give over control. It's kinda like the scripture that says that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. Having one leg in both sides just doesn't work. When I am agape-loving those around me, then I won't be consciencously harming (sinning towards) those around me. When I am in the process of being a peacemaker, then I just won't be quarreling and causing problems. When I am watching for opportunities to be kind, then I will not have the mindset to be mean...and so on... Walking in the Holy Spirit...especially thru daily experience...the power of the flesh begins to fade and doesn't have it's influence anymore. I love this kind of life!! Looking for opportunities to love and be kind is so much fun and does have a profound effect on both the lover and the lovee. Focus on Someone bigger and more powerful then you are...the Holy Spirit...which is the remedy. One can also look at it this way....that when I set out in the morning with my focus on acting more like Christ...then it will be very difficult to act contrary...and it gets more difficult as time passes and more natural to follow the HS's lead. There will always be the conflict (Gal. 5:17) but the HS is more powerful and will cause much success as we use this freedom (from the laws demands) wisely. Thanks for reading.... P.S. Living this way takes us out from underneath the need for the law/rules....as loving others fulfills the law's requirements. (vs 14 + 18)

Hey guys! Say, I think we have to be really careful here, and also dig deeper. When the law was given it was a blanket deal...it was manditory for everyone, AND it had to be done down to the letter! Therefore, because Christ has come to fulfill/complete the law...we are each on our own...and NOT mandated by a blanket set of rules any longer, save one = love. We are each, individually, accountable to Christ Himself. "You have died with Christ, and He has set you free from evil powers of this world. So, why do you keep following rules such as; 'Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch.' Such rules are mere human teaching about things that are gone as soon as we use them. These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a persons evil desires." Col. 2:20-23 We can put a blanket rule on everyone about lots of things if we wanted to....yet, it puts us back under the old system again... As the chapter continues it speaks about setting your sights and focus on things above...and fill your thoughts about doing those things. Then in Gal.'s it speaks further about it.... In Gal. 5:16-26 it speaks about when you have your sights set on the things above, aka the Holy Spirit...which are loving, peacemaking, kindness, goodness and etc. then you will automatically be opposing and not doing the deeds of the carnal nature. SO< basically, if you are doing the dos, then you can't also be doing the don'ts. >>IF I am going about my day intentionally loving those around me, then I will not be going about my day conscienciously harming. >> IF I am going about my day peacemaking, then I won't be going about my day back-bitting and causing divisions. The light kills the darkness...as there cannot be both at the same time. Everything is ok for me, but everything is not beneficial (my own words)...so, it comes down to, as I focus in on walking in the HS, that God WILL teach ME about how I AM to live. He WILL prick my heart if something is not good FOR ME...or when I get off track and lose sight of His Spirit. It is now not a blanket rule telling me and everyone what to do....it is now a relationship, where we seek God individually and walk in His Holy Spirit, Who will lead and guide us as we follow His lead. Oh, by the way...agape-loving and peacemaking is joyeous and not burdensome...and it works in making the flesh naturally cooperate, without having to wrestle and fight with it. Blessings to you...

Deep Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 Waters And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:6-7 >>>>>()<<<<< Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. Psalms 42:1 Love, Your Brother Joe Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Ephesians 5:19 What is your definition of 'spiritual depth', in your own words? Thanks!

O-kay. Peace, Dave Sometimes I feel like getting off these forums all together, as it is very difficult to relay spiritual thought thru words. Kinda like an oxymoron. It is like trying to contain the wind. I apologize for causing any offense to you. I do however feel frustrated..as I look back 30 yrs...and see how lack of spiritual depth the church has become (which doesn't mean you r a part, as I don't know u at all). Anyway, that's another topic for another time I suppose... Bless you...

Amen ruck!! Of course God stays the same....however, that "same" is still endless to finite beings like us and we will never find the end of Him...therefore WE need to continue learning more about Him...peeling layer after layer of the onion, as it were. God doesn't change, but we have to. God doesn't have to grow, but we have to. God doesn't have to mature, but we have to. God doesn't have to grow from carnal thinking to thinking with the mind of Christ, but we have to. Phil. 1:9 "I pray that your love for each other will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in your knowledge and insight." "If anyone thinks they have found the end of God, then they have a very little God, and a very big head". ~ J.E.Sorge Grace to you, Yes, but that is not what was stipulated. Ruck repsonded to someone else who was saying that we should examine the new things that someone like Oprah is presenting so that we know how to counter them. I maintain we merely need to know God. There's nothing new under the sun. I'm not sure what the relevance in this discussion is to that quote, could you explain? Part of the reason that debates become unedifying here is beacuse folks often talk right past and at each other without ever absorbing what's been said. Peace, Dave Well, 1st...I think the 'argument' started over the words 'new ideas'...yes? To me, this is semantics. Some say 'poe-ta-tows' and some say 'poe-tay-toes'. It is rediculous to pick at words...I am really sorry, but it is. It is like straining gnats. If one looks at the words 'new ideas' in context of the verse AND of the topic, I think it is quite apparent what was trying to be said...at least to some who realize that, as I said before, that God is infinite, with ways that are far above ours; therefore we will be learning about Him and gaining new (to us) insights about Him for the rest of our lives. Not absorbing a meaning of someones words sometimes has to do with spiritual maturity. I look back and realize there are things mature Christians and teachers would say that I didn't understand then, but now I get it. Christianity is not a religion lived at the surface...it is one with much spiritual depth and we grow deeper and deeper into it (hopefully) as time passes. For me He is more then just a figure or character from a book. He is real...and endless...with huge depth...and width....therefore I will everyday be learning something more about Him and gaining more and more insight. If He was small, shallow and 1 dimensional as a human or a book character...then yes, I could say that it is easy to know Him...that we could merely know Him and thats it...no further insight needed. However, He is much more then the words in a book...that is why He even says that His ways are far above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. The bible is given in words because that was the best way to relay to limited humans who He was....yet, we can't live on the bible alone because the God of the universe cannot be fully contained in human words. Which is why we also need a personal relationship with God and Christ Himself. Then after that we grow from faith to faith. Yes, there is nothing new under the sun as a whole...meaning there is nothing that surprises God...but there are lots of things new to us. I learn things everyday about God and His creation and about people......I uncover new things all the time. My thoughts..

Excellent definition! Reminds me of a thread on another forum that was talking (arguing more) about lying. Someone was adamate that lying is lying no matter what...that even hiding the Jews during WW2 was lying and it would be wrong to not tell the truth if you were asked where Jews were hidden and if you knew you needed to tell or you would be lying. To me, integrity would be to do what would be the most difficult and possibly even sacrificial...as in hiding the Jews.

P.S. I would never have imagined way back in 1977, when I was saved, that I would have experienced the many layers of God that I have. For one thing, I didn't realize there were SO many layers, AND what those layers consisted of. His ways ARE much higher then our ways, and His thoughts incomprehensible... Also, the carnal mind cannot comprehend, and then live the spiritual....so it takes time and insight and growth.

Amen ruck!! Of course God stays the same....however, that "same" is still endless to finite beings like us and we will never find the end of Him...therefore WE need to continue learning more about Him...peeling layer after layer of the onion, as it were. God doesn't change, but we have to. God doesn't have to grow, but we have to. God doesn't have to mature, but we have to. God doesn't have to grow from carnal thinking to thinking with the mind of Christ, but we have to. Phil. 1:9 "I pray that your love for each other will overflow more and more, and that you will keep on growing in your knowledge and insight." "If anyone thinks they have found the end of God, then they have a very little God, and a very big head". ~ J.E.Sorge

Absolutely!

Ya know....it all comes down to attitude and what our motivation is. All of it. Making sure we have the truth and or new ideas or knowedge...or making sure we tell people the truth...or stand up for righteousness...means nothing (1 Cor. 13:2 -if I knew everything about everything, but have not love, what good am I?) if we are not motivated and filled with love (1 Cor. 13:4-7 - patient, kind, not proud or rude, or demanding of it's own way...). The flesh has it's way of doing things...but God has His way...(Gal. 5:19-23). Love has to be the foundation...the reason and the means of delivery. God's ways many times don't seem logical to the flesh, so we argue in defense of doing what seems natural to us...but many times God's ways are contrary to the flesh's ways... Gal. 6:1-5 Gentleness...humility...not thinking oneself too important...do what you should and then will have the satisfaction of a job well done. Blessings to you all....

YUP!

Amen everyone, thank you for your input!! I always love to hear others bent on a subject and scripture, as it helps greatly in my growth!!! missj

Matt...I hope you don't mind me using this as an example... Anyway, it is not between grace or truth. It is still truth, but it is in HOW it is presented. "We try and live in such a way that no one will be hindered from finding the Lord by the way we act, and so no one can find fault with our ministry. In everything we do we try and show that we are true ministers of God." 2 Cor. 6:3 "Follow God's example in everything you do, because you are His dear children. Live a life filled with love for others, following the example of Christ, Who loved you and gave Himself as a sacrifice...for though your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it...Try to find out what is pleasing to the Lord." Eph. 5:1-10 "Remind everyone of these things, and command them in God's name to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless and they can ruin those who hear them. Work hard so God can approve you. Be a good worker who does not need to be ashamed and correctly explains the word of truth. Avoid godless, foolish talk that lead to more and more ungodliness." 2 Tim. 2:14-18 "My brothers and sisters, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. Your anger can never make things right in God's sight." James 1:19-20 "If you claim to be religious but don't control your tongue, you are just fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless." James 1:26 "So also, the tongue is a small thing, but what enormous damage it can do. A tiny spark can set a whole forest on fire." James 3:5 "If you wise and understand God's ways, live a life of steady goodness so that only good deeds will pour forth. And if you don't brag about the good you do, then you will be truly wise!" James 3:13 "The wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure. It is also peace-loving, gentle at all times and willing to yield to others." James 3:17 "So think clearly and exercise self-control. Look forward to the special blessings that will come to you at the return of Jesus Christ...It is God's will that your good lives should silence those who make accusations against you." 1 Peter 1:13, 2:15 Bless you...

well...I do know that there are Christians who are worried about sinning and how to deal with sin and the flesh's tendencies...so, in a nut shell I guess, it is to focus on walking and being led daily by the Holy Spirit, and in doing so, one's flesh will begin to cooperate. Gal.5:16-17

Great Story, Jenny. I would say that the real work of faith is love. Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Amen Logos!!! It does take real faith to live a life of love, instead of what is familiar - the flesh and it's ways.

So true. I believe all of us always believe in something. We all search for happiness, even the most immoral atheist on Earth. Even he believes temporary gratification gives him happiness. So he has faith, but since he has put faith in the wrong thing, it destroys him. So what is more important that having faith is what you put your faith in. Scientists put faith in science, misers put faith in money, hollywood stars(atleast some of them) put faith in fame,so called "practical, worldly wise" people put faith in accumulating worldly treasures. But their faith is not going to save them. It is only faith in Jesus Christ that saves anybody. I put my faith for a long long time(around 18 years) in romance believing my 'knight in shining armour' would save me and provide for me. When the person I put my faith in changed, I changed too. Thanks so much Gerda! Yes, great thoughts!! Absolutely true. Everyone has faith actually....or we would never step foot on a plane, or even walk out of our house for that matter. We have to have some faith to survive...GOOD point!! Key is: where to put that faith!

I would ask that you read and consider this scripture you quoted again...along with what I said about debate and confrontation... as it seems this verse says nothing about debate...all it says is to answer someones question, which is simple enough. In fact answer with meekness and fear!! Which is the approach I have tried to say we should have when speaking/communicating with others. It is all about attitude and putting others before onesself...I must decrease and He must increase. An attitude that does not come from the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) IT is difficult to communicate in mere words...in fact, very difficult. But I would hope that a Christian site, where I would imagine that most posters are Christian, would endeavor to 'act' as Christ would when sharing. Blessings to you... I don't really know what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that no debates are conducted in meekness and fear, or that they all are from the flesh . I have seen christians fruitfully respond to atheist retorts, using grace, love, humility and empowered with the Holy Spirit. Any christian must always season all their words with grace and love. In and out of debate. We should be an example of Christ. I'm not advocating anything other than this. It may be that you and I see debate differently....I just see it as usually from the flesh...as I spoke about in my original post...so we have to be careful. The word debate even comes from the Old French debat ...which is from the latin meaning "to fight". I just think debate usually incites and invites the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21). Altho, similar to what u said, I have been in some friendly debates with friends or some other people....with much respect and humility. Hello missjenny, welcome to Worthy. I think the point is that there are debates and arguments in our lives the whole time...it just depends how meaningful or fruitful they are. If we are walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit, we will constantly double-chick ourselves and keep adjusting our attitudes if we get into the flesh....which happens to all of us..but it is a constant learning/growing process. Whenever I look to debate and argue I take both Jesus and Paul as outstanding examples of how to conduct oneself...and when you read of their ministries, it seems it was a constant 'bataille des mots'. Paul in particular strove and wrestled with his hearers...determined to demonstrate from the Scriptures, the veracity of his gospel. I take your point that here on Worthy, we are all in different stages of our walk with the L-rd, and it is quite true, that at times rather than pick up on every thing we disagree with, we should have the grace and discernment to only address the more important aspects of what someone is writing about, particularly if they could really do with encouragement rather than constant correction. I think it is also true that you gradually discover with whom you can have serious debate without offence being taken....iron sharpening iron. Best regards. Botz Hi Botz, Thank you for your input!! I have been on other C-forums as well and see how debate can get vicious or in the flesh...in fact often so. So, because I believe debate...which can easily get into who is right and who is wrong ego trip...AND especially since the very close cousins of debate (Gal.5:20-21) are already prevalent in our flesh...that we not enter into any discourse with the intent to debate...unless of course, one's definition of it is very different from the one I stated and referred to. I have seen in my almost 33 yrs, as a Christian adult in the church, the divisions get more and more prevalent...and even though there will be those that respond to this by saying that they have to defend the faith and they have to speak up for truth....well, I say, that that is precisly why there are soOoOo many divisions in the church....over 500 and counting...because everyone THINKS THEY have the truth. Most of Pauls writings were about how to create peace and understanding and getting away from the flesh when someone is different from us....not how to debate better. If we were under the law and therefore had to be precise, then I can see debate being a useful thing...however, grace means that I don't have to believe exactly like someone else, as Christ made me right with Him and not my consistant obediance to the law. I like the iron sharpens iron, however, I don't think it means to set out to be abrasive (I don't think u meant that either, by the way). Thanks for listening to my ramble... missj

What is genuine faith? In Hebrews 11 it speaks a lot about authentic faith...which IS a strong assurance...very active and real...that a particular event will happen!! It is as good as having it....as it is the substance of the thing hoped for! Therefore, I think it is important to remember that those of us that say that faith in Christ alone saves us, have a faith that is active. "Faith without works is dead" means that faith IS an action VERB. When I profess to believe something...I don't just go the other way and do my own thing. THIS is what scripture is talking about...a genuine faith in God shows by some form of (inner and/or outer) movement forward!! Faith backs up it's belief, and it shows! It is also important to remember that essentially, and in reality, it is WHO we have our faith in that saves us...this is important to keep in mind so that we do not lean on our faith, but lean on God first. This is another reason why faith alone saves....because it is WHO the faith is IN. Which also brings me to say, that even a mustard-seed size amount of faith can move mountains....and God is the Author and Finisher of our faith...so it all points back to God's abilities anyway, and not ON our great and wonderful ability to believe. There are those that feel that the faith that saves you is different from the faith one has for everyday living after salvation...however, it is very apparent that faith is faith is faith...is faith! Heb. 3:14 "For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, then we will share in all that belongs to Christ." There was once a man who told all the townspeople to be at the mighty gorge promptly at 5pm, because he was going to show everyone an amazing feat! When everyone arrived they saw a tightrope that was stretched from one side of the gorge to the other. The man asked everyone if they believed he could walk all the way to the otherside and back safely. Everyone cheered, "Yes, we do!" So, he went across and back safely. Then he asked, "Now, do you think I can carry this heavy log with me as I do the same thing again?" Again, everyone cheered!!! So, he picked up the good-sized log and did it. Then he asked, "Now, do you have faith that I can carry a person over and back like I did the log?" Everyone cheered loudly!!!! Then, he asked, "Any volunteers??" In this story it illustrates what faith would be...which is a faith that would volunteer, IF indeed the individual truly did believe. Thank you for reading!!

I would ask that you read and consider this scripture you quoted again...along with what I said about debate and confrontation... as it seems this verse says nothing about debate...all it says is to answer someones question, which is simple enough. In fact answer with meekness and fear!! Which is the approach I have tried to say we should have when speaking/communicating with others. It is all about attitude and putting others before onesself...I must decrease and He must increase. An attitude that does not come from the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21) IT is difficult to communicate in mere words...in fact, very difficult. But I would hope that a Christian site, where I would imagine that most posters are Christian, would endeavor to 'act' as Christ would when sharing. Blessings to you... I don't really know what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that no debates are conducted in meekness and fear, or that they all are from the flesh . I have seen christians fruitfully respond to atheist retorts, using grace, love, humility and empowered with the Holy Spirit. Any christian must always season all their words with grace and love. In and out of debate. We should be an example of Christ. I'm not advocating anything other than this. It may be that you and I see debate differently....I just see it as usually from the flesh...as I spoke about in my original post...so we have to be careful. The word debate even comes from the Old French debat ...which is from the latin meaning "to fight". I just think debate usually incites and invites the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21). Altho, similar to what u said, I have been in some friendly debates with friends or some other people....with much respect and humility.