SkilletRocksMyFace

Sure, different reasons, Geenna obviously was the vally outside of Jeruselem, Hades is the grave (greakk remmeber, thier mythology, the hellenistic jews) and Tatros I don't know but I'm sure it would have been the same. Hey in the english laugange why do we have so many words that mean good...we have good, great, awesome, excellent, wonderful, there must be a reason? Argument doesn't hold wieght in proving immortal souls/spirits peace

lOL I like the short forming you did. To which of these scritpures should I answer to first? Was it not stated that we shouldn't have a trintiy debate? Are we now engaging in one? I'm down for whatever... Lets not get too excited, I'm arguing to extent that Jesus Christ is not lietarly the same being as God the father, and if so then since I will answer your scripture, I'd like you to answer mine, that is the contridiction of CHrist and God: Jesus Christ was tempted (Heb. 2:18) but God (his Father) cannot be tempted with evil (James 1:13) Jesus Christ died (Rev. 1:18) but God (his Father) cannot die (1 Tim. 6:16) Jesus Christ was seen by men but God (his Father) cannot be seen by men (1 Tim. 6:16) Thanks. peace.

It is a sound suggestion and I have done so. Sheol is the grave, so is "hell" In fact the translation for hell and sheol are pretty similar, in strongs Hell tranlastes in the old testiment: she'owl, Hebrew 7585, Strong

Your right a debate about the logistics of the trinity might not get people anywhere, however I do think we can understand John 1:1 and I'll post the scritpure later. We have the Bible and I believe we can understand that, we just need the context and help from ohters to understand it. Can we fully understand God?? NO, but I do think we can understand His word. I politly disagree...

WHOAH! Coral Snake, take it easy. Have you ever seen the movie Star Trec First Contact....Captin Pacard was personally hurt by what the Borg did to him, so now he was on a mission to hurt them back. .. Look man, I dig the fact that you want to "defend the faith" but you never had the right to be judgemental. Christ was sometimes blunt and judgemental (because he had that authority from his father) You don't have that authority. Just because you were in a "cult" before, does not give you the right to come all out like this and shoot off your knowledge to "expose false teaching" There are better ways to express yourself than this. Try Christain love, try showing some respect and try actually hearing people out, you'll find that you can get to know people and help them better if you give them the light of day first. peace. p.s. do they actually delete JW's posts here? WHY? I think it would be benificail for people to read what they preach to get a good understanding of how to deal with it (Yes I disagree strongly with JW's but I still would like to hear them out)

Yes, yes I know all the famous verses to try and prove it. All I am saying is that Jesus Christ is NOT literaly God the Father. "no man hath seen God at any time" well thousands saw Jesus "God cannot be tempted with evil" Well Chris was tempted in the wilderness "God cannot die" well Christ did Do you honostly belive that Jesus the son of God was/is God the father? peace, we can turn this into a trinity debate if you want to, but put it in the doctrine section and make a new thread. I'll take your scritpures and questions there.

Dealing with moses, elijah and enoch are easy topics, but I would like to see some people answering my question and my scirpture posts. No one has adressed the fact that immortal soulists/spiritis believe that they have the reward before the second comming of Christ. Also no one has posted anything to disprove the ressurection from the dead, this would leave to beleieve that you also belieave the ressurection, which reaises the question what the need is for two judjemnts? Firstly we know death riegned from Adam to Moses: Rom 5 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. Secondly, we know that Enoc is mentioned in Hebrews 11 at verse 13 when Paul tells us that these all died in faith NOT YET RECIEVEING the promise Heb 11: 5By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God 13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. THe story of Enoch in Genisis 5 reads; Genesis 5 22Enoch walked with God[1] after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. 24Enoch walked with God, and he was not,[2] for God took him. It does not mention anywhere that Enoch became immortal, or recieved the promise reward, in fact PUal tells us differently and Christ tells us that "no man hath assended up to heaven" So I would rather believe Christ and PUal then to make ASSUMPTIONS about someone being immortal. Enoch was still a man and we know that "flesh and blood cannot inharet the kingdom" SO what happened to Enoch, I don't know to be honost, but God does. No man knows, that includes people who site the passage trying to pass it off as a proof text. However the bible from Christ and pual tells us differently, so you cannot prove that this means anything in the immortality part, much like you cannot prove that in Collosians "to depart and be with Christ" means immidieatly, it is just an ASSUMPTION but not a good one because just in the next chapter Paul states "Do whatever that I might obtain the ressurection" Just assumptions, but no one knows what happened to Enoch, but from scripture we do know he did not assend into heaven and he did not yet recieve the promise. MOses and Elijah on the mount: This one is easy enough to deal with. You just took the verse out of context, keep reading in Mt 17, at verse 9 Christ states: 9And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead It was a vision. Oh and what is this, "Son of Man is raised from the dead" Christ again teaching the ressurection. How about some people answering my quesitons? Peace.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Christainity can fit the defintion of a "cult" by everything you just said. Cult is a loaded word and is usualy taken negitively. you claim to have true christaintiy, why not tell us what it is instead of what is not? I bet you not everyone will agree, why then should others who disagree be labled as cults? Just food for thought and no offense attended. Peace.

Yep, Jesus is not the Father, but he is the son there is no denying that. I do have to politly disagree with you though about Christ being the I AM in the old testiment, I don't quite understand what you mean there, perhaps could you provide some scripture for this? No doubt Christ was in the image of God, was just saying that Jesus is lieteraly not the father, but is the son of God and is a mortal man who died. he wasn't God but manifested God pefectly and his relationship with the father was like non other due to his conception of the spirit and Marry. peace

The thing you cannot explain has a simple explanation. Jesus is NOT God. Christ was the son of God and a mortal man. He died and was the firstfruits of the Ressurection to immortality, now sitting at the right hand of God. Jesus is not God. Peace

Deut 30: 15"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God[1] that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." We have the free will to choose, just like God called Isreal to choose life.

I think you answered your own question in your scriptural passage quoting Acts 19, which I believe answers the question as well. John's bapstims was for reptence sake, not for salvation. For ROMANS 6 tells us the nessasry baptism into the death and ressurection of Christ is needed for salvation but John's wasnt. How could someone be baptized into Christ if Christ hasn't died yet? You hit the nail on the head with acts 19. peace.

Hi Back again, lots to cover so I'll do my best! Firstly about the spirit (its interesting to note that this thread switched from the immortalitly of the soul to now the immortality of the spirit. It is important to make this disctioction that they are not the same thing.) Well like all things I take my belief from scripture but let us consult Strongs for the translation of spirit. ruwach, Hebrew 7307, Strong

That too, good one old timer. The fact is, is that mortal bodies (we all know we are motal) are living souls (see my scriptures posted earlier plus strongs concordance definition. And we die (we all know we die). Paul tells us that mortal CANNOT put on immortality, so the notion of an "immortal soul" is not scritpural. Paul tells us that WHEN CHRIST RETURNS and not before shall the mortal put on immortality, this is all eveident in 1Cor15 as I have shown. Soul in strongs: nephesh, Hebrew 5315, Strong

Just another quick in and out post here between classes: Firstly, we arleady delt with Abraham's bossom, the parable, and the scriputre in Heb 11 that show Abraham is indeed dead and have not yet recieved the promise. Secondly, about Sual, notice when you read the passage that Samual came from the ground and he also declares "why have you wakened me from my sleep" Hmm... if Souls were imortal why did not samul come from heaven? Was he not rightouts and just? Aslo, whenveer and old testiment figure dies it is usualy refered to as "now abrham feel asleep in the lord" this means death. The same with Lazurus when Christ raised him as well. Now lets clear this up, I do not preach soul sleep (I dont know what this doctrine is) I preach death and ressurection. Thanks, be back later. good posts all around

While I have about 10min before class. Its great to see we have good discussion going here. I"ll try to answer as much as I can remember within the span of the time I have. Firstly, my definition of death (which isn't the soul basis of the argument and never was because scripture is) is that life ceases, the brain shuts down and breathing stops...you know...dead... Secondly to deal with the famous "immortaliy" verses in Luke w/thief on the cross. Firstly let us look at the passage Luke 23: 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in (1) Paradise." Notice firstly that the thief is saying "remember WHEN you come in your kingdom" Obviously the thief knew of the Kingdom to come and the ressuection (again see 1Thes 4:15 to the end) In the Lord's Prayer "Thy Kingdom come" Not that it is immidate but will COME in the future Secondly: Jesus answered: "You ask me to remember you then, but I say unto you now . . . " (Luke 23:43). This repunctuation is not merely tinkering with the text. The Greek word "semeron" translated "today", "this day" is used as a term of emphasis.1 In the following references "semeron" qualifies this preceding verb: Luke 2:11; 22:34; Acts 20:26; 26:29; 2 Cor. 3:14,15. Luke 2 11 for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord. Luke 22 34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, until thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. Acts 20 26 Wherefore I testify unto you this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 2 Corinthians 3 14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ. 15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart. Rotherham in his translation places the comma after "this day" and there are a large number of passages in the Septuagint translation in which the Greek construction corresponds to that of Luke 23:43: "I say unto you this day" corresponds to the emphatic, "I testify unto you this day", e.g. Deut. 6:6; 7:11; 8:1; 10:13; 11:8,13,28. You see because there is no puncaution in the Greek text, the translated just added the comma where ever they wanted to. However, it is far more likely that the passage reads "Assurley I say to you this day, you will be with me in paradise" Plus the context that the thief says "remember whe WHEN you come to your kingodm" proves this, as well as it is a popular phrase used eleswhere by Christ and by Pual. Someone here stated that scritpure must be consistant, I agree and this is proof. Further proof is found when CHrist says in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven Even more proof. If what you believe is true about righouts going immidaetly to Heaven when the die, then why did David not go there? He was a man after God's own heart: Acts 2 34 For David ascended not into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Now lastley to deal with the Philipains verse. Clearly from 1Corth15 Pual believes and hopes stongly in the ressurection, so his saying that "he would rather depart and be with Christ" doesn't hold wieght for proof of immortal soul. We do not know the time when he "will be with Christ" But we DO KNOW that Pual hopes in the ressurection 1 Corinthians 15 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.The "sound of the last trump" is quoted in Revolations but just for the extra umph 1 Thessalonians 4 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. It is now time for class, I'll be back later to post. Good disucssion, thanks.

Thank you for your insight. I politly disagree with the proof of "Abraham's bosom" though simpley because it is a parable, and is not literal. Christ's parables are used as anologies to help teach someting correctly or show something incorrectly. For example the parable of the mustard seed...faith is not really a mustard seed, however it is something that can start very small and grow to be HUGE. However faith is not literaly a mustard seed. So too is Abrahams bossom. The context in which Christ is speaking is against the pharasies (and Saducees who don't believe the ressurection) and he is talking about the hellinestic jews who believe some of the greek teachings. What Christ is doing is using a parable (the anology) that if the hellentic jews beleived correctly (again saducies dont believe ressurection) then this is what would happen (abrahms bossom), however Christ goes on to say that He will "raise them up at the last day" scirpturaly: How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. Hebrews 11:39-40 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, [40] since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. I wouldn't take this parable or any parable literally. Christ does teach the ressurection clearly and indeed he has "gone to prepare a place for us" Thanks for the posts, keep it up.

I think you have a great view of the reward. now as far as things awaiting you IN heaven, just wait untill Heaven comes to you at the ressurection. For we shall inherit the Kingdom on Heaven on Earth. Indeed Jesus has gone to prepare a place for you however he "shall return quickly and his reward is with him" Just trying to claer up the context we use as our reward, which we have not recieved yet but shall be given to when the kingdom comes if we are judged "good and faithful" servants. Great posts.

let me post the mark verse in CONTEXT: Mark 12:23-27 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife." [24] Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? [25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. [26] And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? [27] He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong." Here the deciples are talking about the ressuection and so is Christ! Jesus tells us that "for when the rise form the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marrige" That is the reason they are "wrong" not becauase the believe in the ressurection. Paul teaches it and Christ teaches it. Reread the passage in context please Thanks for your posts, good discusion.

Hi guys, let me clear up a few things please, To answer the question, I'm not a Jehova's Witness, just a bible student. secodly you only quoted a scritprue in mark that I believe is a bit out of context for your argument, please see next post after this one. To support my belief: Firstly Paul tells us, 1 Cor. 15:12-14 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. [14] And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. It is clear that the ressurection is our hope, otherwise your preaching is in vain Secondly Christ states: John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." What is the point of this if Christ didn't mean it. Thirdly the soul is quite mortal and will die Joshua 10:29-30 Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: [30] And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it; but did unto the king thereof as he did unto the king of Jericho. Jeremiah 2:34 Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these. Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. The bible is clear about what the soul is and this is further proven by the ACTUAL DEFINITION of the word "soul" in strongs concordance nephesh, Hebrew 5315, Strong

Hi everyone, I am a newcommer here. I have a question for everyone. Who believes in the direct essention to Heaven/Hell after death (ie. Immortality of the soul) If you do believe this, then what is the point of the ressurection that paul talks about in 1Corth15? Think about it, if you die and then immiditaly are jugded (either go to heaven or hell) then what is the point of CHrist's return to judge everyone else again? Please provide scritpure and I'll get back to you with mine. I believe (and put my hope in) THe ressureciton from the dead, and not the immortality of the soul. Thanks!