A Muslim

I don't mind if you disagree with us, but I wish you would make an effort to understand what it is we actually believe. God was not correcting a mistake. To claim no one was redeemed for 5000 years is not what Scripture teaches. So what was the case of these people? So wasn't this the case for people before Jesus?

It is beyond debate that the whole Bible revolves around Jesus' atoning death. As for the Jews, please don't fail to recognize that the first Christians were those Jews who acknowledged and accepted Him as the promised Messiah. It is true that a segment of the Jewish society of those times downgraded their understanding of the Messiah to that of an earthly king that would delivered them from Rome, but your sweeping generalization cannot be sustained in view of textual and historic evidences. Jesus clearly preached that His Kingdom was not earth-bound. The same Jewish Apostles who first believed Him were the ones who elaborated further about the universal significance of Jesus as the Redeemer of all Mankind, as it was written. It is important that you submit yourself to a focused and unprejudiced biblical study of this essential matter so you understand that salvation in only found in Jesus. This is about destiny, not religion. My point is concerning the Jews who don't believe that Isaiah 53 doesn't refer to Jesus although they believe it was the word of God? Why should I take your claim over theirs? Especially that Jesus himself didn't recognize that it talks about him, and never taught it to people to prove his point, this conclusion was just made by Christians coming afterwards. Actually there are scripts in 53 which prove that it doesn't tell about redemption, see for example this script: Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. Of course you know that Jesus (Peace be upon him) didn't have a seed, you may say it's spiritually speaking, the case is that the Hebrew word is "zerah" which means a real seed other than the word "ben" which can mean spiritual sonship as in Genesis 15:3-4: Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed(zerah): and, lo, one born(ben) in my house is mine heir. Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of Jehovah came unto him, saying, This man shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. You can see the Hebrew text to make sure, the same thing for proplonging days, this expression in Hebrew, can't mean everlasting life which doesn't match with your belief that Jesus is God, the same for the word in verse 1, (servant), according to your belief is that only God can make the sacrifice which doesn't match with this verse. Isaiah 53 was foretelling about Israel, and the deliverence from the Babylonian captivity, the word servant refers to Israel in many scripts, and it was used that way commonly in Isaiah, for example in Isaiah 45:4, 48:1-3,....etc. And this can be proved all over the scripts, but it's very clear that they didn't mean that belief in salvation. The question is: if he really came to die on the cross, why did he ask the Father to take the cup away from him? Was he retreating? There is a big difference between your example here and our point, God would neither account my father's debts nor the genetic disease, but He would account me of having a sinful nature, so there were generations after Adam and before Jesus who had a sinful nature and were not redeemed, what would be their case? And at the same time, the Christians didn't stop sinning after Jesus' death, what did Jesus' death add?

His function as Messiah was to die for the transgressions of others. That was His one and only ransom. Jesus quoted a number of prophecies about Himself and the writers of the Gospel and the epistles also quoted a few as they recognized them. Jesus lived or acted out other prophecies without necessarily quoting them with words, like the appointed time of His Ministry on earth as prophesied by Daniel, the place where He would be born, His brief exodus to Egypt, and many more. Well, but this point is much more important than just passing over it without quoting it especially that never told the link between his death and carrying people's sins, he just said it in a very vague way without telling why he should die. The Jews never understood that this will be the message of the Messiah and this wasn't what they understood from Isaiah 53 that it refers to the Messiah as they believed that the Messiah will come as a conqueror not that he will die for their sins, so actually Jesus did need to quote them if this was his function and why he came to Earth. And why should be a backing down? Isn't he supposed to be God and God doesn't back down from His chosen path? But actually he did back down when he asked the Father to take the cup away from him, actually the chapter 17 told that work was talking about which was his message on Earth that he let people know the Father and this is the message of all prophets. Actually it hasn't been answered, you were talking about The costly debt Adam incurred for all of us, I asked, If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice. You answered by saying that when Adam sinned he separated himself from God, brought death upon himself and provoked the cursing of the earth. All his descendants are thus born in a state of separation from Our Creator into a cursed world and with a death sentence in our souls. So actually you didn't answer me, I was asking why not how should we be condemned? We are not responsible for Adam's sin, so why were we born separated from God?

You are right, but looking through scriptures is much more efficient as it may be a bit more reasonable based on what we see not what we feel and seeing is much better than feeling. You may convince someone through looking through scriptures as he sees them in front of him, but it's much more difficult to convince him through telling a vision that you saw as he didn't see it. I know that we are not talking about convincing, but I see it proving my point that personal visions or miracles will add nothing.

Ok, it's your right if you chose either to debate or not, but I just wanted to clarify some points here. The first point is concerning loving our enemies, well, I see this word is so vague and must be defined well, what do you mean by loving your enemies? Is it just feeling pity for them? How should you act with them? For example, the Japanese attacked the US fleet at Pearl Harbor, how should you react in that situation against the Japanese as they are your enemies and you should love them? Will you defend your people? Or you will do nothing against them as you are asked to love them? Well, there may be some celebrations from some Muslims, but the case is that killing innocents in Islam is forbidden during war unlike the OT, but this may happen from some Muslims as a reaction against the massive killings made by the US or the Israeli governments against Muslims whether they are in Palestine or in Iraq or in Afghanistan and the totally biased US situation for Israel. All this causes much hostility against US, but Islam tells us that we must differentiate between those who fight us and those who are innocent.

Ok points. So God is keeping points, like walk a lady across the street +2 points. Save some children from a fire +10 points. Curse out your neighbor -3 points. Really this makes me want to bust out in laughter, but its really sad. The fact that you actually believe that you can actually merit anything beneficial to please God outside of Christ is heartbreaking. Well, what is really heartbreaking is to see people believe that God found the only way to save people from sins is to die and humiliate himself, I worship a Mighty God. Actually this remedy theory is the one which makes me want to laugh as if God is correcting his mistake that he created people in a sinful nature and didn't give them a way to be redeemed for more than 5000 years, then he made the (plan) to correct his mistake by making himself a man and die for people. I am sorry, but I find no much difference between this theory and the theories of Greek myths. Btw, I looked up for this "not the whammy!" and I didn't find a meaning for it, are you embarrassed of its meaning?

I know the principles. But you were asking how I know, not how I could convince you. People in other religions also think that this is the way the know as well, do you think they are true?

And where did Jesus quote Isaiah 53 or Daniel 9:4, Jesus didn't clarify the ransom he was talking about. Besides, he said before crucifixion that he accomplished the work the Father gave to him, means that he never came to die for salvation and never said that man needed salvation through his death: Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. And what is the sin Adam's descendants made to be cursed? Is it because they were born from Adam?

So, no matter how evil you might be, if you have done enough good works to outweigh your evil works, then you merit heaven? So I could murder someone but if I do enough good works to offset the act of murder, I will still go to heaven? Did I say so? Good works are the second step, the first step is to have faith, if you have no faith, works won't save you. The next step after faith is good works. As for your second question about murder, there are two types of sins, sins against yourself like smoking or being lust, and sins against people like stealing and murdering. For the first type of sins, if you repent faithfully, God will forgive you, because this is something between you and God and promised to forgive us, if your sin is against someone else, if this guy didn't forgive you, then has a right that he must take, if he didn't take it now, he'll take it in the Hereafter, he will take from your points of good works, if you didn't have good points, you will carry his sins until he takes his right. Now, what is your case, if you murdered someone, then you repented, does this guy have a right to take from you? You won't know it in this life, you must do as much as you can, besides, not just because you made good works, you are sure that they were accepted as your intention must be pure to God not to anything else.

I don't believe that this would happen, the question is, how do you make sure that the one appearing to you is Jesus not the Satan? OK, since you asked a question, I'll answer. Well, He kept me from committing suicide, provoked me to love Him and the Father more, broke through some bondages I was oppressed with, things like that. Also, when people have spoken "words of knowledge" and "words of revelation" over me I could tell it was the Lord because they broke chains of bondages from me as well. Would Satan cast out Satan? Jesus told us to examine fruits, and the fruits speak volumes. Something else, with "words of knowledge" and "words of revelation" I have spoken to others and others have spoken to me, quite often either confirms or uncovers what was hidden in the heart or things the Lord had been placing in their heart or it puts pieces together they or I were puzzling over. Things like that. (Just so you know, when I previously said "prophecy/ prophesied" these were not foretelling the future but revealing what was concealed with regards to current situations. Well, actually I can give much stories about people talking about miracles or visions occurring to themselves from different streams either in Islam or in Christianity or even paganism all these sects claims similar things are they all true and from God? Of course not, only one is true, and this is a tactic from Satan to drive people away from the right belief through things like these to let the adherents to this false belief adhere more to their belief. What I mean is that I don't believe these kinds of things are a real evidence, but the real evidence is looking through scriptures and analyzing beliefs.

People must work as much as they can and they will be judged for their work and if they outweigh their sins, God promised them with Heaven. This is God's Mercy that He promised us with this, otherwise no works could be enough to cover God's blessings and grace from our creation to all gifts we were given through our life.

Allusions!? I would say fulfillment. It was prophesied from the beginning in the Garden of Eden and continuously expanded and reiterated for 4 thousand years, prefigured with the implementation of the Mosaic Covenant, addressed by Jesus before and after His crucifixion, alluded to by the apostles and first disciples (Acts), and finally wrapped up by Paul (Romans, Colossians) and the author of Hebrews. Well, this is your opinion, I don't see it that way, you can see my conversation with nebula as we talked about this issue. I don't see Jesus quoting any prophecy telling that he came to die for our sins. You believe these are prophecies foretelling about him, Jesus didn't. And why don't you ask God give you the understanding to my belief? I don't believe that your faith is tru nor do you believe mine is true, so the judge here is reason. If Adam sinned, why should we be condemned for his sin? This is against God's Justice. so Jesus was the sacrifice so that people don't need to do that anymore, actually this is really weird, because if this was the case, then Christians must fulfill the laws of the Old Testament and leave only that law, but actually they neither obey that law nor the other laws, but it appears as if the law is taken selectively when it meets their belief, besides, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 (although there is a doubt in referring this story to Jesus), and he didn't need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers, plus, the same question still remains, where did Jesus say "I am the sacrifice of the OT", or anything like that? Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb as He did with Abraham's son when He sent a lamb instead of letting himself die for people? The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies. The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person.

Yes.

I didn't miss your question, I don't see God's righteousness unsatisfied. If a man made a sin and then faithfully repented, God will forgive him, this concept is present in Islam, in the OT and in the NT as I illustrated in the examples I mentioned above. Were does it show that repenting is enough to satisify God's righteousness. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission/forgiveness of sin. So once again, based on this requirement. If it were about good deeds, and even just asking God to forgive you, how is His righteousness satisfied. I have already posted the verse in Ezekiel 18 We will always have this nature otherwise you won't have sinned again, do you? All what we are asked to do is to have faith in God, do good deeds and avoid sins as much as we can and repent from sins and God will forgive them.