A Muslim

That is not true, where YHVH is concerned. YHVH's power is demonstrated in his mercy. YHVH's 's justice and might is seen in His ability to redeem sinful man without compromising His holiness in the process. Not only does it not contradict His mightiness and justice, it also reveals His mercy, grace and love for the people He created. What does this has to do with God's Holiness? The need for an atonement? So why did Jesus forgive the adulterer woman which was before salvation? Isn't this against God's Holiness? Which is against God's Justice as well. If Adam sinned, what shall I have to do with that? Each one is responsible for his acts. 19

That's another concept I agree with. God needn't do all these tactics and humiliate Himself to show people that He will forgive them for something they are born with. That's against God's Mightiness and justice. We believe that the one who really believes in Allah as the Only God and doesn't associate any partners with Him, not to love anyone more than Him, not to fear anyone more than Him, have a real faith in Him that He is the Only God and that he is a poor human being, this man will be saved. Actually this is a main difference between Islam and Christianity. We consider that people were born pure but are then polluted with sins through the surrounding environment and the effect of this environment on their action, otherwise, if we were born with such bondage to curse and sin, why shall God account us of something we have nothing to do with? This is against God's justice. I see Coptic Church saying that if a child died before being baptized he will not be saved. I am not sure if you adopt the same opinion or not, but it seems through your words that you do. In Islam, we believe that if a child died, he will be sent to Heaven because he was born pure not cursed. We never said that performance is first, of course faith is first, if someone made all good works without faith, they are nothing. But I see that what Christianity gave is not a grace, but a correction to a mistake, Yahweh created people cursed with sins and wanted to get rid of this curse so he sent Jesus to die and lift the curse. But it is not the fault of man to be born cursed and to be accounted for what Yahweh created him with.

Actually there was a disciple of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was crucified and he wasn't concerned, when he knew that he will be crucified he said a poem telling he is not concerned as long as this will be for the sake of Allah. Does it record the time between writing the poem and the crucifixion? When facing death, a person can feel calm at one time, and feel terror at another, or vice versa. Now, if the agony Jesus went through was a shame and weakness, why was it written about by those who wanted to exalt Him? Could it be that they see something that you do not? For His followers see glory, not shame. If you will note, when Jesus is done praying, He is stronger than ever. It doesn't record exact time, but it seems through the narration that it's about 3 or 4 days. But it doesn't record that he was terrified at all, it talks even about miracles occurred during his imprisonment before crucifixion. When he was crucified, one asked him:" Do you like that Muhammad is in your place while you are sitting with your family?" He said :'By Allah I never want to with the children my wife and enjoy the pleasures of the world survived, despite being the Messenger of calamity hit by a piece of thorns ...!" As for your second question, they may have written so as they heard it. Actually the history of Christian creed is not clear and it seems it had been developed during the first 2 centuries. Actually I am not, could you please tell me what you mean? Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, thus stated: I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him. Never mind. As for our belief of the message of Jesus, let Jesus (Peace be upon him) talk about it: 50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (Holy Quran Surat Al Imran) 6.And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" (Holy Quran, Surat Al Saff)

Did the Quran say that Al Samiri is from Samaria? Actually it didn't, and this is not what the Prophet Muhammad's disciples and early interpreters understand from the Quran. Al Samiri was from Samurraa in Iraq, he was a calf worshipper and he tempted Israel to worship the calf. Interesting. Things must have gotten mixed up in being translated into English, because even Muslims have said "Samaritan." OK, I am trying to find information on "Samurraa", and the closest match I can find is "Samarra," and that city wasn't built until much later as well. What information do you have on the existence of this place back then? Yes, it's Samarra, I was just copying the Arabic pronunciation as I didn't know the English one, actually the city is ancient, what you mean by building during the Abbasid Caliphate this was a rebuilding, you can see the history of the city here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra Haven't I really mentioned it? I have been confirming it. See my message 24, message 35, my example of the bird.I have been confirming on saying that without love nothing can be achieved, but still we need other incentives. You haven't answered my question, if rewards are not important, neither fear is, why will God give rewards to the righteous and punish those who reject him? Thanks, if I have any question about any word or phrase I will ask. I understand what you mean and agree with the concept, it's not man's effort, but God's blessing although we are asked to make effort, but we shall refer it God only that He gave us this blessing. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying that Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, thus stated: I am near to the thought of My servant as he thinks about Me, and I am with him as he remembers Me. And if he remembers Me in his heart, I also remember him in My Heart, and if he remembers Me in assembly I remember him in assembly, better than his (remembrance), and if he draws near Me by the span of a palm, I draw near him by the cubit, and if he draws near Me by the cubit I draw near him by the space (covered by) two hands. And if he walks towards Me, I rush towards him. Actually if you have looked deeply at my last sentence you'd have understood what I meant, I said at the end that working for rewards or fear cannot be made without faith, otherwise there will be no interest for worship without faith, if the man is not deeply believing that there is Heaven or hell or that God is looking at him, he won't be motivated to do a good work or stop a sin. And all this doesn't come by the effort of man, but by God's blessing, and that's another meaning of the Hadith I gave above. Well, but according to your speculation, he had a good intention although he did it through wrong means, and when he found that he was wrong, he remorsed, actually I see he gave the money back to the priests: 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4

And where did Jesus quote any of them? Even Isaiah 7:14 was quoted by the writer of Gospel of Matthew not Jesus. I understand your point, and that's what we are already discussing.

Actually there was a disciple of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) who was crucified and he wasn't concerned, when he knew that he will be crucified he said a poem telling he is not concerned as long as this will be for the sake of Allah. What do you mean by a spiritual agony? I mean through scriptures and what Jesus said? Your answer indicates that you don't want to understand what I said. I never negated the work on heart and kept on insisting that it is the main thing, but it is not the only thing, refer to what I said on the bird example, love is the head of the bird, if the bird is beheaded, it will die. The main belief and reason Christians adopt Christianity for which is that Jesus died for our sins, you quote Isaiah 53 as the main OT evidence for it although Jesus didn't recognize it to be talking about that issue when he talked and quoted OT verses about much more trivial issues and quoted.

If you want to compare inconsistencies - how do you handle the inconsistencies within the Quran? Of course. Did the Quran say that Al Samiri is from Samaria? Actually it didn't, and this is not what the Prophet Muhammad's disciples and early interpreters understand from the Quran. Al Samiri was from Samurraa in Iraq, he was a calf worshipper and he tempted Israel to worship the calf. Well, I refer to my articles not to others, I am not copying and pasting, as for the links you gave from answering Islam, I have been through these issues for a long time, but if you want answers to them, you could browse answering Christianity. There has been lots of polemics between both sides. And was this the case I was talking about? I don't know why do you insist on showing that I negate that love is the main thing although I never said so. I am Egyptian, thanks for clarification. Ok, you may get rid of some sins, others still may not, and vice versa, you may still have some sins you are still tempted to do, while others may not have the temptation. Incentives help to catalyze the concept of refining, if someone before sinning imagined God's reward if he didn't commit the sin or imagined his case if he committed it, this may help him a lot staying away from it, he may keep struggling the temptation to commit the sin, but if he resisted it every time, temptation will vanish as a matter of time. Actually to ask God His reward and fearing him also cannot happen without faith otherwise he cannot imagine it. So why did he remorse and give the money back?

And how is this related to the concept of atonement? Jesus here is just talking about rising to Heaven which we both agree on. No mention for crucifixion. What happened when Israel looked upon the bronze serpent? What was the bronze serpent for? It was for cure, and believing in Jesus is also a cure, but that doesn't mean that his crucifixion is the cure. Jesus was sent from God and people must believe in him to live. Jesus was lifted up to Heaven and we must believe in him to live, but that doesn't mean that his crucifixion is the cure for our sins. Well, it can mean being lifted up to Heaven instead of the cross, and I see it more appropriate. And how could this be a solution to the contradiction?

Jesus said: "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man [Jesus], it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? I believe that the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel, but I don't believe in the Christian concept of the Holy Spirit, you'd better read that link, you will see a surprise: (link deleted...botz) So why didn't Jesus connect this dots for them by quoting Isaiah 53? So this will lead to a contradiction, Jesus in John 17 says that Jesus accomplished the work he came for, then when he died, he said: it is finished. How can we solve it? And how is this related to the concept of atonement? Jesus here is just talking about rising to Heaven which we both agree on. No mention for crucifixion. I see the word is clear, the serpent wasn't crucified not even its death, so it has nothing to do with death or crucifixion. You may have had a point if he mentioned it alone, but even if what you say that lifting up means crucifixion- which needs an evidence- as well is true, Jesus was talking here about lifting up otherwise he would have got any example of a man crucified before him whom people know.

Well, I never said that it is the goal or the incentive. I said it's A goal and AN incentive but not alone, we believe that we should worship Allah with three aspects, love, asking rewards and fear, and scholars give an example of this by a bird, it's head is love and its wings are rewards and fear. If you worship without love, then you are not actually worshiping as the bird is dead, if you are worshiping with love only, then the bird can't fly because this is not a real worship as God is the All Supreme and we are nothing compared to God and worshiping God without fear disturbs the relationship between man and God, otherwise God won't have created hell. If fear was overwhelmed on rewards or the opposite, then the worship is unbalanced and it mostly results in heresies as despairing from God's mercy for those who overwhelm fear, or thinking that sins are something trivial as man believes as those who overwhelm love or rewards. Ah, so is this why Islamic governments rule by fear and oppression? But our Scriptures teach us that "perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with torment." Fearing God is about reverence, not terror. I find it said you believe love alone is not real worship. Our Scriptures teach us that "God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." Well, first of all, there is no Islamic government who is applying Islam correctly today, to judge Islam, judge it through its Scriptures not through actions of governments. The second thing, could you tell me the difference between fear as a result of reverence and fear as a result of terror? Well, we may differ in the concept of love only or not, but simply to say, if it was the case of love only, why did God promise the righteous with rewards and the sinner with hell? Why are they awful? Actually I see that Islam is a balanced religion which puts human weakness into consideration unlike Christianity which asks man to behave as an angel when he is already weak whatever pious he is. Exactly, and that's my point, you are still sinning even if you got rid of some sins, and as you are still sinning, then you are still tempted, and as you are still tempted, then you need incentives to overcome temptation because it will never end even if it ended in some sins. If I have the ultimate evidence that Jesus said so, then I will believe him, but I fail to see that ultimate evidence in the Bible. I really see its evidence is so weak compared to the Quran. And what is the difference between remorsing and repentance. The guy even wanted to give the money back? s

Well, if that was the case. He may have been frightened for a while, but this fright shouldn't let him to ask God to retreat, this is an excessive fright. Besides, this shows that Jesus the man doesn't have enough faith, yes he may be about to die and he may be afraid to die, but asking to retreat means that his faith is not full. Actually I see people having more faith although their faith is sometimes in false principles, look at the Japanese kamikaaz for example and see how they drove their aircrafts into American fleet without hesitation. Look at the suicide bombers for example, and see how they bomb themselves. Doesn't Jesus have enough faith as they have? Isn't he that brave as they are? There are holes in your example. Kamikazes and suicide bombers have control over their death. Kamikazes and suicide bombers anticipate a fairly quick death. They do not anticipate hours of agony to include being whipped, beaten, nails being driven into their bodies, and spending hours on the edge of suffocation only to be relieved by putting pressure on the nail-driven wounds. Well, even for that case, Jesus wasn't the first nor the last to be tortured and I have examples in the Quran and through the life of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his disciples who were tortured severely and never retreated as the case with Jesus the man. Even for suicide bombers, there is a probability of failure and they could be arrested and tortured, so there is no big difference. Well, I see this against God's Mightiness, I already believe that God sympathizes my weakness and He is more Merciful to me than a mother to her child and there are lots of Islamic scriptures talking about these issue, God needn't humiliate himself and appears in a weak form to show me that He sympathizes my weakness, I see that as a blasphemy against God that doesn't differ a lot from idolatry. Well, the Jews don't believe this scripture refers to the Messiah but to the Babylonian captivity. Jesus already quoted many OT verses in issues which are much less important than this issue which is the main purpose of Christianity. I really wonder why Jesus concerns on trivial issues and ignores talking about main Christian issues!

So if someone repented from blasphemy of the holy ghost, what would be his case? How do you define the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost? Matthew 12 31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Well, Judas of Iscariot repented from what he did with Jesus and wasn't forgiven, and many people don't believe in Jesus and insult him, do yu believe that they will be forgiven and enter Paradise? In Islam, any sin is forgiven if man repented because Allah is the All Merciful and All Forgiver. Of course I believe in the words of Jesus but I don't believe in the Bible. The Bible may contain some truth but I believe that it was subject to lots of alterations and interpolations. You may see my belief in the Bible in this link, this is my own site, I am not just copying or pasting: http://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/thebible Well, the verse in Luke you've just quoted said that these two persons didn't know about these scriptures until they were told about it. These are just talking about the Messiah, doesn't say that the Messiah came to die for their sins, Jesus already said the work the Father gave him to accomplish:4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. Jesus Prays for His Disciples 6

This is not the point, OK, I've gotten lost in the mix of things then. What is the point? I was talking about your last statement of whether mere descriptions of Heaven suffice or not. This wasn't my point, but my point was that these descriptions are an incentive to do good and leave sins as I explained. Well, I never said that it is the goal or the incentive. I said it's A goal and AN incentive but not alone, we believe that we should worship Allah with three aspects, love, asking rewards and fear, and scholars give an example of this by a bird, it's head is love and its wings are rewards and fear. If you worship without love, then you are not actually worshiping as the bird is dead, if you are worshiping with love only, then the bird can't fly because this is not a real worship as God is the All Supreme and we are nothing compared to God and worshiping God without fear disturbs the relationship between man and God, otherwise God won't have created hell. If fear was overwhelmed on rewards or the opposite, then the worship is unbalanced and it mostly results in heresies as despairing from God's mercy for those who overwhelm fear, or thinking that sins are something trivial as man believes as those who overwhelm love or rewards. Well, as you said, this process takes time and that's why there must be more than one road to expedite it, I agree with what you are saying, but this is actually a bit ideal, it happens, but not with most people, that's why there must be more than one incentive to avoid sins. Does this mean that you are not sinning anymore? If you say so, I won't believe you. Of course not, because no one is 100% percent good and no one is 100% bad, you can see people who love people and want to help them, but they cannot stop being lust or smoking and you may see them defending their faith strongly either Muslims or Christians, but they may have some sins whom they cannot repent. So I disagree with that and that's why God accounts their people by balancing their good deeds and bad deeds because they are neither 100% good nor 100% bad.

So the question rises again, two Christians who really love God, one of them did better works and avoided sins more than the other, will they be equal before God?

Even if this was the case, he was talking about dying and sacrifice and being a martyr to be a real symbol for Christians, but he didn't say that this was among the salvation plan Christians believe in. Well, if that was the case. He may have been frightened for a while, but this fright shouldn't let him to ask God to retreat, this is an excessive fright. Besides, this shows that Jesus the man doesn't have enough faith, yes he may be about to die and he may be afraid to die, but asking to retreat means that his faith is not full. Actually I see people having more faith although their faith is sometimes in false principles, look at the Japanese kamikaaz for example and see how they drove their aircrafts into American fleet without hesitation. Look at the suicide bombers for example, and see how they bomb themselves. Doesn't Jesus have enough faith as they have? Isn't he that brave as they are? As for Isaiah 53, you say that he knew what he shall face through it. Ok, where did he quote it to tell people that he was the one meant by that chapter and that the chapter was talking about the salvation mission he came to accomplish? This is the main scripture Christians use to prove the salvation plan in the OT, did Jesus really know about what Christians did?

This is not the point, but many people cannot imagine them so if they knew generally about what these rewards are, and of course not all of them, this may help them resist their temptations, as the example I gave for alcohol for example, if a man knew that in Heaven he would have a pure non harmful wine, if he was tempted to drink it, this may help him overcome this temptation. For example, you may say to your child, if you stayed away from eating others' food, I will get you a better food. Of course this is not the case, as in Heaven God will give us all what we want, and rewards promised are usually common ones between all people. Ok This is not necessary the case, he may know that he is sinning, but he can't leave the sin because he is weak. So if someone repented from blasphemy of the holy ghost, what would be his case? How do you define the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost? Why didn't Jesus tell the people about these prophecies if he really meant them? Now neither he said that he is the sacrifice or the atonement of the OT nor did he talk about the prophecies in the OT telling about it but these were said after his resurrection, what was he saying? Well, according to the context, he talked about the works he accomplished which was revealing the Father to people know(vs. 6 and after), and he didn't talk here about salvation through his death which was supposed to be the main mission he came for, neither did he talk about dying for the world. The hour that has come, he seems to talk about glory through resurrection to God, but that doesn't mean that he was talking about dying for the people's sins. And may be he looks at martyrdom to be glory. That raises my questions again concerning that issue. Please don't give me the verses you quoted before alone, tell me what you mean by citing these verses and how are they relevant to my question:

And do you think allusions are enough for a main Christian creed like that? Jesus even said that it wasn't the reason God sent him to Earth for: Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. This was before crucifixion, isn't it? Why did Jesus say that he accomplished the work the Father given to him? All these are not the quotes of Jesus. Besides, I see them all as general words just telling that he came to help people stop sinning and having their past sins forgiven, otherwise, sins haven't really stopped either by Christians nor by others after Jesus. According to what I see in the context he is just saying that he is really loyal to his message and he has no problem to die for it. Well, I think he is metaphorically speaking, since he said before crucifixion: Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: abide ye here, and watch with me. Mat 26:39 And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. If this was really the reason why he came, would have he been that sad and sorrowful, and keep on prayer and asks God to take that cup away from him, isn't he supposed to be waiting for that moment, not to ask God to get it away? Finally look at what he said on the cross: Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? So he clearly accuses God that he left him, as if he (God?!) was surprised by this or that God betrayed him, is that logical? Don't he know why he is there? Sorry, but I don't realize how this answers my question, can you paraphrase it in your own words please? I am sorry again, but could you tell me how this is relevant to my question? Also in your words please.

Ok, no problem. As for the rewards, I was just asking what did the Bible tell about it because this was something new to me. As for knowing the rewards, well not necessary that we know all the rewards, nor can we imagine them. But knowing rewards may help, as it may help man resisting the sin, I may stop drinking because I know that I will have much better in Heaven and so on. Agree. The verse you cited is talking about external loss from Jesus or from God, this is not what I am talking about. I am talking about loss of salvation due to sinning, a man sinned and didn't repent, your answer was: So you are simply saying it is a gamble meaning that this guy may lose salvation. I think this was your quote and it seems I put it in a wrong way. They were sent down to Earth and I think this is an enough penalty. As for the last question, I don't get it.

Did the OT say so?If it did, where? Which post do you mean? Sorry, but I can't get your point.

It's not about bad mood as Allah is just and He told us that the man who made good works his reward will not be lost, a good work may not be accepted but this will be due to a defect in the work itself as a bad intention for example, but I believe that Allah is more Merciful to us than a mother to her child. This was my question before which you didn't answer: Which part I said you are answering here? As for the link you gave here, I see its summary through this question: Man is not perfect, neither his works are, God gives the full reward if a man intended to do a good deed and he wasn't able to do it, and if a man was about to do a sin and he remembered Allah, so he didn't commit it, Allah will replace it with merits, Allah gives high rewards for small works and gives us times where rewards are multiplied. If a man made a good work, he will take ten times of this work's reward and if he made a sin, it will be accounted as only one sin. If a man was a non-Muslim, then he repented and began doing good deeds, his past sins will be converted to works. Finally, Allah won't let any Muslim who believes that Allah is One and believes in Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), he won't be in hell eternally, even if his sins overweighed his good works, he will be in hell according to his sins, then he will enter Heaven. Do you think all that is not a grace? So what do you think of the verse I cited from Ezekiel? What did Jesus add?

To answer you along with what you said here: You are proving that your god is not just, as he didn't offer forgiveness or salvation to all these ages before Jesus for more than 5000 years and gave the grace for some people 2000 years ago. Either your god is not omniscient, as he didn't know how people can be redeemed for 5000 years, or that he is not omnipotent because he was forced to achieve a kind of salvation that he will humiliate himself in, or that he is simply unjust as he offers some people forgiveness and doesn't offer it to the others. Btw, if God knows that a man has a sinful nature, why did he let him sinning without offering him a way to repent? Is God torturing people for something he created in them? And then he gives them the redemption through his son as a grace, well, if that is the case, then it is not a grace, he is just correcting his mistake after more than 5000 years. I am not talking about works alone, I am asking about two people having the righteousness of Jesus you are talking about, one of them having more works than the other, are they equal? Will any of them have rewards than the other? If not, why do you see this is not against God's justice? Does a homily support lying? I think he is clearly talking about the case before Jesus, and what he is saying is totally logical and matching with what the verse is saying. Why didn't he talk about this historic perspective you are giving?

Did what I say negate the effect of love? I never said so, because actually working for rewards alone doesn't work and will lead to nothing. But at the same time, working for love along with rewards will stimulate much more than working for love only, especially for someone who is still new in faith. I might give myself for my family out of love if I am sure that this will lead me to pleasing God and having His rewards. I may sacrifice all what I have in this world for God because I know that God will give me much better afterwards. That doesn't mean that I won't do that out of love to God, because this is impossible, but this will stimulate me much more to sacrifice than just love only, we are human beings, we are not angels. So your answer is simply proving two things, the first is that Scriptures show us that we are judged according to what we have done, this means that works are important as well as faith, and people have different works, then they will not be judge according to their works, hence different decrees. The second thing your answer proves is that there is a possibility that salvation can be lost, meaning that you don't have an assurance of salvation. Your answer shows ignorance of what salvation is. Well, the Quran stated that they Adam and Eve just repented to Allah, and Allah accepted them, so simple as Ezekiel says. As for the atonement, this is really weird, because if this was the case, then Christians must fulfill the laws of the Old Testament and leave only that law, but actually they neither obey that law nor the other laws, but it appears as if the law is taken selectively when it meets their belief, besides, Jesus forgave the adulterer in John 8 (although there is a doubt in referring this story to Jesus), and he didn't need for example to be stoned so that he abrogates stoning the adulterers, plus, the same question still remains, where did Jesus say "I am the sacrifice of the OT", or anything like that? Besides, there are many questions concering that point. Now it is supposed that God wants to give people salvation and forgive them without restricting them with the atonement, what is need that He becomes a man and humiliates Himself when He can just send a lamb? You actually said it, He didn't kill Himself for Adam and Eve, He sent an animal. The Old Testament didn't say that the atonement will be God Himself, but in most cases it was a lamb, and He could have easily redeemed people like what He did with Abraham and his son. I see that this is against God's mightiness, God doesn't die and doesn't pain from people who worth compared to His creation. I see this as a blasphemy that shows that God can do nothing except that He Himself dies. The second thing, who killed Jesus? Were they sinned people who wanted atonement? No, They were the Jews who fought Jesus and killed him as an opposition to his message. So they were not actually giving atonement, they were sinning. How can a sin be an atonement for a sin? An atonement is supposed to be a good deed from a man who repented for his sin not from a man who is sinning by this atonement. So actually I don't see that this is a sacrifice for love, it is an action with no meaning, like if a man thinks that when he loves another, he expresses his love by killing himself with no need to sacrifice his beloved person. Ok, but show me what Jesus said about it not Paul. Ok

Well, working for rewards doesn't contradict with working for love, both are needed because our human nature is not ideal and it always needs an incentive for doing good, this doesn't mean that we needn't work out of love, we need to as well, but working for love only is against human nature, and most people cannot withstand it as we are weak, so we need another incentive that helps us along with our love to God. So if someone believed that Jesus died for him and that he attained salvation, then he sinned and didn't repent, what shall be his case? So actually the death of Jesus didn't set you free from sin as you still have the sinful flesh that instigates you to sin. I see nothing new the death of Jesus added, this was the same case before: Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Isn't God fair? If He is, why does He equalize between a man who made much works and another who didn't work as much of the first given that both are believers?

To tell you, our good works will NEVER balance God's grace and will NEVER be enough and I think you agree with me on that concept, this is not what I mean. What I am talking about is that people differ a lot in works either good or bad. God is fair, a believer who has many good deeds is not equal to another believer who has less deeds, the first should have a higher rank as God won't let him work without rewarding him. Of course even faith doesn't come from our efforts, and that's what I meant. This was an answer to Isaiah 6:8's reply, I was talking about the above point that God is fair, he answered me by saying that the reason for that is so that no one thinks that he made his works out of his own. Well, the same thing applies on faith, no one should think that he had the faith out of his own. And you believe that the one who has faith is rewarded in heaven while the non believer will be punished although the believer didn't have faith by his own but it was God's grace, so why don't you apply the same concept on works? As for the second part of the verse, I can say something different. All other religions, Buddhism, Hinduism, christianity, Shintoism, Judaism, and any other religion you can think are all false religions. There is no salvation except through believing that the is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. Well, I will not answer you, Adam Clarke will: Verse 21. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins And afterwards walk according to the character of the righteous already specified; shall he find mercy, and be for ever saved? YES. Verse 22. All his transgressions Shall be so completely forgiven by God's mercy, that they shall not be even mentioned to him; and if he live and die in this recovered state, he shall live with God to all eternity. And why? Hear the reason:- Verse 23. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? No! That is foreign to him whose name is love, and whose nature is mercy. On the contrary he "wills that he should return from his evil ways and live." And if God can have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, he cannot have made a decree to abandon him to the evil of his nature, and then damn him for what he could not avoid: for as God can do nothing with which he is not pleased, so he can decree nothing with which he is not pleased. But he is "not pleased with the death of a sinner," therefore he cannot have made a decree to bring him to this death. http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=018 According to your exegesis, do you mean that if any Israelite before made a sin, there is no way to repent and that God will not forgive him, or what will be his case? So it seems that your God didn't pay attention to people and love them until 2000 years ago?

Does not really say. So what is your evidence that a man with more works will have more rewards from God? Well, we can apply the same concept on faith, do you think that you attained your faith by your own or that was a grace from your God? The same thing applies on Muslims, and Israelites before Jesus, so what did Christianity add? Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. This example here is not applicable as it illustrates the case before repentence not after it, and we both agree that those who repent God will forgive them, but I am talking about the case after repentance where one has more works and less sins than the other. Well, it depends on whether the man sins due to his weakness where he sins and knows that he is sinning but he is weak to overcome it or a man who sins and rejects the truth. The first one can be excused, the second is not. Well, I don't see Jesus death added anything, the above verse in Ezekiel is enough I will answer the other posts later