A Muslim

In heaven one will have more rewards, but not be greater. Just as if one person spent a lifetime putting money in savings, and another only does it for a few years. They will be both equal in Gods eyes, one will however still have more treasures saved up. And this only if you do the works, to please God and only God, and not in the open. Rewards like what? Well, I see that doing good deeds to overweight bad deeds is better than having a guarantee for salvation just because of faith, as it's a fair standard to judge people so that someone with many good deeds shouldn't be treated as someone with less deeds or more sins (I am talking about believers who have faith in God and work out of their faith). Allah is fair. So as you believe that all your sins including future sins are forgiven. What is the motive you have to stop sins? Actually I believe that if I made a sin and repent to God faithfully, then God will forgive me, and this will be a motive for me not to sin, because I may not repent. But if I believe that all my sins are already forgiven, then whatever sins I commit, as long as I believe that Jesus died for me, I know they are forgiven, so I have no motive to stop the sins, and I shouldn't be worried as everything is already made up. And do you see that Christians don't sin? Or that none of them has evil nature? Of course you are right, but the question here is, how could a small change and a big change be equal in God's eyes?

So if there are 2 people who (realize that their works are as filthy rags, and cannot do enough righteous works to be saved. They accept the grace of God and as he changes their hear,....etc.) One of these two made more works and less sins than the other, will they be equal in Heaven? Of course no one has assurance of salvation, because if someone is sure on Earth that he will go to Heaven, then he will not be keen on doing good deeds and avoiding sins. But in Islam, there are lots of promises from God that whoever believes in God, and does good deeds for the sake of God that he will surely go to Paradise. So God told us the way to Paradise and told us that whoever will do them will go to Paradise. I am trying to obey God, have the right belief in Him and obey Him loyally, but at the same time I am afraid not to be loyal to God. For example I repent to God from my sins, I believe that God told me that who fully repents to Allah, that Allah will accept him. What I am not assured of is that my repentance is full or that it's mixed with a bad intention. Allah at the same time is fair, and He told us that He will be at what we think of Him, if I think of God in a good way that He will forgive me and send me to Paradise, backed up with my real faith in Allah, then He will be at what I think.

Yes and no. Only faith in Jesus saves us. It means that nothing we do will earn us heaven, but does not mean we are not to do good works. So what is the motivation for anyone who has faith in Jesus to work as this will earn him nothing in heaven? Still I would like an answer to my question: Does it mean that a man who is believing that Jesus will save him and doing good deeds will be equal to a man who also believes in salvation through Jesus but he is not doing the good deeds the former man does? Btw, as a Muslim, I don't believe that I will go to Paradise by my works but by Allah's mercy, since we humans are so weak to do full righteous deeds and totally avoid sins, but at the same time we are asked to work and motivated by Paradise to work and do our best since work is the mirror of faith, besides, it differentiates between a strong believer and a weak believer in Paradise. So actually both faith and work are important, yes faith is more important but work is the mirror of faith.

Hi all So as you are saying that works don't save us but only faith through Jesus, does this mean that there is no need to work, do good deeds and avoid sins? Does it mean that anyone can commit sins as long as he believes that Jesus will save him? Does it mean that a man who is believing that Jesus will save him and doing good deeds will be equal to a man who also believes in salvation through Jesus but he is not doing the good deeds the former man does?

So let's look at it from the beginning. Your god created man and he knew that he will sin and that he cannot please him even if he repented. So he actually opened the door for man to sin and closed the door to repent as man canot please God well enough to be saved. Then after a very long time between Adam and Jesus constituting most of the history of humanity, he began to put a solution of his own mistake by putting that funny plan to save humanity. Actually this denotes that your god is either cruel because he created man knowing his nature and putting no solution to fix it, and he made this play just to decieve you showing how merciful and loving he is. Or that your god is insane who doesn't know what he is doing. So he was trying to solve this problem and handle his mistake. This is really disgusting, and don't object on me insulting your god, as you kept on insulting my God and my Prophet so you are the beginner not me. Actually he did: Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham. Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. (Jesus didn't say to her: you are wrong) Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people. (Again, Jesus didn't tell them you are wrong I am not a prophet I am God and people never understood that raising a dead means that Jesus is God but only a prophet) Mat 13:54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. And to say that God is three persons with different ranks has the same notion of polytheism of having multiple gods. You may consider it a mystery but this can be the case if you really have an evidence through the Bible telling that there is only one God, but He reveals in Himself, three persons. You didn't give the evidence for me to refuse,I adressed what you gave mewith evidence from your bible not out of nothing, you cannot answer my point that's something else. Sorry, I don't worship your lamb weak and insane god who doesn't know what he is doing so he tries to solve his mistake agaisnt humanity. Btw, didn't christianity have martyrs? for whom did these martyrs died? You really lost your mind and began talking with nonesense. So where was the holy spirit to guide them to the right way? Either there is no holy spirit who guides people or that these fathers were heretics. So what about the holy spirit? It seems that Jesus totally forgot about him? he even didn't talk about the holy spirit even as a dove. He totally ignore him as if he is not present. And where was Jesus the God? Why didn't he include him in being the only God? Till now you didn't give any evidence telling that Jesus was fully God and fully man to handle dozens of scripturs telling that Jesus is not God. I see how this verse constitutes a stumbling block against your faith. If he wasn't including himself, he would have clarified it but he didn't. May be he wouldn't he used a different word, but he would have clarified after quoting it that he is not meant to be in the word "our" as this would have been against his deity which he never declared. But again he didn't. No the case is that you cannot give any evidence for your point and at the ende you say that I am not theologically equipped to believe in this. And the other verse states that the father is the only God excluding Jesus from being God. You need to solve this paradox.

I was late in reply because I was abroad and I didn't have neither the time nor the access to reply. Now let's see your arguments. You are just trying to go around the plain text to prove your point. Jesus said that he is a man (John 8:40) and the son of man. God says that he is neither a man nor the son of man. Then Jesus is NOT God. And to say that Jesus is fully God and fully man is contradicting statement in itself concerning these scriptures rather than having no evidence for it in the Bible. And Jews never believed that the Messiah was God either before Jesus or after him. Well, I have already said before that the action of those leaders proves nothing as they were biased from the beginning and made up their mind concerning their action against him so whatever he says they would give the same reaction. Actually you have admitted before that Jews never believed that the Messiah is God and now you are calling their thought to prove your point. They will do nothing for you. Even if there was a distinction, it will just tell that Jesus is the Messiah. That doesn't make him God. I am not trying to lock anything. You are the one trying to give a distinction, then the burden of proof lies upon you not me. You were the one who said from the beginning that the word son of God denotes equality with God, when I gave verses telling that others were called sons of God, you took a step back and said it depends on context. The context is what we already are discussing and I see that you provided nothing till now tells that Jesus is God. You are really lacking reason. How is it irrelevant? They were all using the same language and used the same word for others. Even if they had other purposes, that doesn't negate the fact that they used these words which you consider to be denoting equality with God for other people, rather than using these words has nothing to do with the so-called objective. How does Jesus refferring to peace makers as sons of God be irrelevant to Matthew's objective to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah for example? Oh! I am sorry I didn't realize that I was so honoured speaking to your majesty . No, you provided nothing proving that Jesus is eternal, all what you gave was adressed by other verses from your Bible. You are trying to give a distinction based on your faith rather than scripture. This your problem not mine. Well, I have already answered this concerning the other Hebrew names including el. So you have no point in it. You even evaded this by saying it's the title not the name when Jesus never used this term nor did anyone call him so while being on earth either as a title or as a name, but it was once quoted by a gospel writer after Jesus was raised. The same thing applies to Isaiah 9:6 where Jesus was never called that name either on earth or after resurrection. So you are now contradicting yourself, you say that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy but we are waiting for his second coming prophecies. Actually using that type of evidence to prove that Jesus is God is really a joke proving that you are bankrupt and cannot provide anymore real evidence, so you began to say anything. Well, Jesus said: " I CAN do nothing by myself" not I do or I may or any other word, the word can refers to being able or not, so actually Jesus submitted to the Father's will because he HAS to as he can do nothing by himself. You may try to state your faith as you like but it will add nothing to our argument as it is lacking evidence rather than being against scripture.

He was quoting the scripture, but he didn't exclude himself from the word our. If there was a distinction as you claim, he would have elaborated it, but he didn't. Not spiritually or theologically equipped to understand that? A nice answer that can convince non-Christians. Keep calm man. Things don't go that way. The case is that this verse can mean anything except Jesus deity, whatever Thomas meant, he didn't mean to say that Jesus is God, may be this exclamation wasn't present in the first century israel because they were not used to pronounce God's name, but actually Jesus corrected many things and added many modifications to Jewish culture, this could have been one of them, otherwise why do Christians pronounce God's name nowadays? The case is that the context was not talking about believing that Jesus is God but believing that Jesus was resurrected, so actually your view of what Thomas said doesn't match with the context nor with other verses telling that the Father is the ONLY true God. Actually the word servant denotes inferiorship and is against God's Mightiness, even the Arabic Bible denotes that word "servant" as "abd" which means slave rather than khadem which means "servant", the second thing is that Isaiah 42:1 is saying that this servant is upheld by God, not by his own power. So actually Jesus was supported by God not by his own power, even the Bible tells that he was strengthened by an angel, is an angel stronger than God? Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." Lu 22:43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it came to smash paganism and false beliefs of God. Your insult to Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is the same as the insults of pagans because he came to smash their idols. Your heart is like those pagans. You also have idols and Jesus is considered to be your idol although he is totally innocent from that claim you attribute to him which is not present even in your books, and one day you will find him abstaining from you and all those who attributed these false claims to him: 116. And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. 117. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. 118. "If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."(Quran Sura 5) Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't teach that God is three persons different in rank which is polytheism. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that God is incarnated as a man who eats, drinks and dies. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that the only way to save people is that God dies for them that's why he made a plan to save them, nice tactics. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't say that God is a lamb as he was sacrificed for us. Islam has nothing to do with paganism as it doesn't worship statues and images and say that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and hail Mary beliefs (Regarded to Catholics). Islam came to smash all these pagan and false beliefs and restore people to the true way of God.

He didn't say that he knew it alone, but he said the son and whom the son chosen. The son is actually choosing based on the Father's well not his well, as we have been talking before and you agreed with me that he does nothing except by the will of the Father and you distinguished between the will and the power, here he is talking about something referring to will: 30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. These words in itself are a restriction to God's power as if God had no solution to save people from sins except that he dies for them, which is a clear insult to God. God needn't do that, anyone who repents faithfully to God will be saved: Eze 18:21"But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Which is a polytheism, as there is a hierarchy in godhead a junior god and a senior god. You consider both as God but each one has a rank. Again, you lack the evidence to say so, and actually Jesus was against what you said as people understood that this was God's authority to man and he didn't correct them and other things discussed before i am not going to repeat them. Because Allah is a Forgiving God and He forgives me when I repent from my sins. He is not a weak god that has no solution to save people except through dying for them or a lamb because I don't worship lambs. Rev 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings

I just wanted to note that I didn't reply many of your quotations where you were just answering by stating your belief with no supporting evidence as i am not going to repeat my words over and over, so in this post I will be concerned with the new points and evidence you give. Which means that you believe that Jesus the man is God which is against the verse that God is not a man, Jesus didn't clarify that point because he had other things to do than telling who he is or who God is. A nice answer. 19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man The verse in Numbers is also speaking about the son of man not a son of man. May be you will say that Hebrew has no articles, so you have no point in what you say when you distinguish between a son of man and the son of man. Then when he talks about the disciples telling that they are sons of God, he will be equating them with God. A nice try, but Matthew uses it: Mat 5:9 BlessedG3107 are theG3588 peacemakers:G1518 forG3754 theyG846 shall be calledG2564 the childrenG5207 of God.G2316 Strong's Bible dictionary G5207 υἱός uihos hwee-os' Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son. Are the peacemakers equal to God? So this also applies to Jesus, He was not God, but it was not blasphemy to refer to him as "the son of God" given that it was a term that denote his role as God's reprsentative as a prophet. Well, first of all Jesus didn't speak Greek to say that he used the word huios. Secondly the word huios wasn't used solely for Jesus. The same thing applies to Jesus, it's not Jesus but his kingdom. Till now you can't provide an evidence that Jesus was eternal The verse says his name is, you say it is not his name but character, whom should I believe? Actually he didn't, but even if we supposed he did, that doesn't mean that he is God, God tells a prophecy that some man will come, when the man comes, that doesn't mean that he is God because he fulfilled a prophecy. A very odd logic.

Faith needs evidence, I haven't seen an evidence for your faith even through your book and quotes you believe it refers to Jesus (Peace be upon him), why should I believe in an unsound faith? God sent us Prophets and scriptures to let us know Him, what you are believing has nothing to do with what God sent. It's a distorted version of real faith in God, so you are the one who need to wake up and set yourself free from what you were indoctrinated and search the scriptures.

That doesn't negate the fact that each Sura has it's own context, the problem is that you know nothing about Islam except from islamophobian sites and think that this way you know about it more than Muslims. You are simply deluded. Read the verses again: YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. Actually we distinguish between non-Muslims who fight Islam and those who don't: 8. ALLAH forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, ALLAH loves those who are equitable. 9. ALLAH only forbids you respecting those who have fought against you on account of your religion and have driven you out of your homes, and have helped others in driving you out, that you make friends with them, and whosoever makes friends with them - it is these that are transgressors.(Holy Quran 60:8-9) Well mr dog, I can just answer you by one word: the caravan goes, and dogs bark, you insult Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him), that won't harm him, you are just harming yourself by barking.

Where did you see the Quran offering no hope for salvation?

There is no contradiction, you are the one supposing it when there isn't. No, it is six, there is no contradiction here, God created the Earth in two days, then He created the Heavens in two days then He He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion in two days, the four days mentioned here include the two days for Earth creation. Now can you tell me how can you resolve these contradictions in the Bible?

Does this mean that every man living man who is living now is superior to dead people? Revelation has been rejected by many Early Church Fathers. If Jesus wanted to say that he is God, he needn't come to a vision 70 years after he was rose from Earth.

So tell me, does It mean part of? Or the whole, in Arabic? Can mean both according to context

Well, you are taking verses out of context, the verse you gave was talking about those who fight Muslims, you can see our belief in Jihad here: http://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/jihadorterrorism

I still need the evidence where Jesus said what you are saying about him. Secondly, either he was omiscent or not as you are contradicting yourself here, you clearly say here that he emptied himself of divine perogatives because he didn't know the hour, but when he knew how people think, this became a divine attribute, you are tailoring the verses according to what your belief says, that made you not just talking with no evidence, but also contradicting yourself. Now if he knew what people think then he didn't know the hour, that won't make him omniscent, so your point fails to stand against scriptures. Well, I have elaborated above that Jesus took everything from the Father. Besides, the original case for all prophets that they didn't perform miracles by themselves, but through God, any violation to this rule needs evidence, and as you are the one who support the violation, you are the one asked to give evidence, so actually you are the one who have been working from conjecture not me. We need to talk about Jesus whether he really died for or sins or not, this may need a separate thread. You may see my point here if you like: http://sites.google.com/site/christismuslim/didhedieforus Well, I didn't claim to know Hebrew, so I see what translations give and there is a diversity among translations between Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 10:22, as in most translations, there is no the in 9:6, while there is the in 10:22. In the Arabic translation, 9:6 the word God is "elah" which can be god or God, while in 10:22, the word God is "Allah" which is referred to God only. If this diversity is among Christian translators, how could I accept that this verse points that the Messiah is God? I don't know Hebrew, so I am referreing to translations and dictionaries, why should I assume that all translators got it wrong and you got it right?

I think the verse says his name not his title. As for your first point, it doesn't imply that Jesus is God at all as many people ruled Israel. As for the second, even if it meant eternal past, the verse doesn't say and he is from eternal past, but his origin meaning that he wasn't present the way he is in the eternal past but just his origin which seems to be present in God's predestination as Paul told about himself to be chosen from the beginning of the world. Well, to judge the people that doesn't mean that he is God, where did the verse say YHVH?The word used here is adoni which is master: Mal 3:1 Behold,H2009 I will sendH7971 my messenger,H4397 and he shall prepareH6437 the wayH1870 beforeH6440 me: and the Lord,H113 whomH834 yeH859 seek,H1245 shall suddenlyH6597 comeH935 toH413 his temple,H1964 even the messengerH4397 of the covenant,H1285 whomH834 yeH859 delightH2655 in: behold,H2009 he shall come,H935 saithH559 the LORDH3068 of hosts.H6635 H113 אדן אדון 'âdôn 'âdôn aw-done', aw-done' From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller (human or divine): - lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with “Adoni-”. Strong's Bible Dictionary Being the Messiah has nothing to do with being God. As for the eternal kingdom, I think you need to say David is God as well. He already said that he took everything from the Father: Luke 10:22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. So this includes the power to forgive sins, people evn undrstood that this is from God not from Jesus himself: Mat 9:8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man. The first is not a proof that he is God and we talked much about that. Where did Jesus say that he has two natures? He never said it, neither did he say that he is God. All what you are doing is that you are manipulating with verses to get a conclusion that Jesus had both natures. Your belief is not sound at all to be a basic belief. I know you said nothing wrong. I am talking about the expression itself as I saw it a kind of insult even if you didn't mean it. I never said that prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is God so that he must be alive to worship him. He was a prophet sent by God, accomplished his mission and died as all other prophets, Jesus (Peace be upon him) is alive now, but he will die after his second coming. So actually Jesus (Peace be upon him) is a prophet as the Bible itself says, and till now I haven't seen a proof that he is God. Really, so why do Christians die? Well, nowhere did Jesus say that he or the Holy Spirit are the ONLY God, he said it concerning the Father ONLY, and he made a clear distiction between him and the Father in the same verse. As Jesus is talking to the Father then he is talking to the person of the Father neither to the Son nor to the HS, so he is actually excluding himself from being God as mentioned in many other verses telling that he is inferior to the Father: Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Jesus is clearly saying that the Father is his God, and Isaiah 42 whom you believe it to be referring to Jesus tells the same: 1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; So the Father is Jesus' God and Jesus is God's servant, Jesus even tells that the Father is greater than him, meaning he could never be God as he is inferior to the Father who is the ONLY God: John 14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yes, what you are saying is the main point, but there are other sub points and these sub points tell that God is neither a man nor the son of man, oterwise the verse wouldn't have mentioned these 2 examples, just it would have said God neither lies nor repents. And the context is also enough to see that Jesus being called " the son of God" doesn't mean his equality with God and I gave examples about that before. You said that saying son of means equality, now I gave you verses calling others as sons of God, you need to prove that it doesn't denote equality concerning these people but it does concerning Jesus. So when they emulated God, does this mean they are gods? Also it wasn't just the case of that point, but Jesus generally said that God is their father: Mat 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Messiah. So if we applied what you say, this will mean that all believers are equal to God. As you agree with me that their enemies were biased, then they cannot be a credible source to take information from, as their aim was to prove Jesus' wrong, and that's why they accused him of blasphemy. So they are not a credible source to prove Jesus' deity, the credible source is how Jesus' responded to what they said, he clearly refuted them in John 10. So this means that Eve also has a divine origin and Adam has a double divine origin!! Remember Psalm 82:6, so these judges were also told to be Gods? It's the same exact expression. Well, the OT said that David would have an eternal kingdom, that doesn't make him God: 2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. Well, Paul came after Jesus died and he put the first step to spoil Jesus' teachings although it was spoiled much more after him, but although he made Jesus a higher rank than mere men, he made him inferior to God.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) had no father as Adam had neither a father nor a mother and as Eve had no mother. So where are the X and Y chromosomes for Adam and Y chromosomes for Eve? Miracles cannot be interpreted scientifically as they are a violation to science in themselves otherwise they won't have been miracles. I have the question now, if you believe Jesus had a father, whom you believe to be God of course, and he has a mother who was Mary, how was Jesus begotten from his father and his mother? Of course, God told us in the Quran about Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him): YUSUFALI: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." No one understood that we follow him in every place he goes whether he goes home or to the toilet or anywhere, or after he dies that we go with him in his tomb, but to follow his teachings, what he said and what he did, and we never said that this means he is God.

Well, you can know who is Allah through my article here: [edit] I agree with you, we need to talk about other subjects like Jesus' salvation through the cross and the Prophecies of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) in the Bible to get the whole picture, the issue we are discussing here is actually the beginning not the end.