childeye

What is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit? Is it a willfull ignorance? Why do the children of Satan always resist the Holy Spirit? For to reject the Holy Spirit is dishonesty, pride and vanity, all the traits of Satan. Therefore only the children of the devil can continue to choose to resist the Truth. This post is about the warning and encouragement to repent from pride and vanity. For sripture says that those who reject the Truth, God will give them over to a lie. That seems to me to mean, that there will not exist any more option to reject the Truth. The Truth is that I cannot choose to not admit the Truth when I see it, without admitting the Truth when I see it. I welcome your loving correction in Jesus' name.

To me, the Grace of God was given so as to set my will free. Therefore it is not plausible that God's grace saves me, and yet I chose to accept grace by my freewill. For choosing to reject the Holy Spirit is dishonesty, pride and vanity, all the traits of Satan and his children. God will give them over to a lie wherein there is no choice to see Truth. Hence the children of Satan always resist the Holy Spirit under the guise of free will. The Truth is I cannot choose to not admit the Truth when I see it, without admitting it's the Truth when I see it.

But herein is a problem. What is there that can be disagreed with that you have understood properly? Don't get me wrong. But I say that I believe what I am saying is the Truth of the holy Spirit. If you disagree, then either I am in need of correction or you are, or the third and most likely reason, is there is misunderstanding. Certainly those who serve Love care to instruct. Those who know the Truth would be able to dispell the lies. As I see nothing wrong with learning nor do I see anything wrong with teaching. But when someone says they don't agree about the simplist of truths I am believing, then there is cause for concern. Neither does mine. Hence blame and guilt must be cleansed away. But we do imagine the gravity of the temptation every time we discuss the issue of responsibility and subsequently freewill. Adam and Eve are indeed unique, nor are they us. But I suspect we are probably more alike than not. Temptation is nothing foreign to me. Disobedience is nothing foreign to me. I can see my mistakes with God's loving guidance. I can see that temptations are based upon the lies of the temptor. Those who would think I am seeking to escape responsibility by blaming Satan or Adam or the woman are believing a lie themselves, And the spirit of that lie will cause division. For I am not seeking to escape responsibility, I am trying to act responsibly. For God blamed Satan also and scripture identifies Satan as the temptor. Is it the responsible thing to do, to now conclude via freewill theology that we disobey God simply because we can? But, for the sake of blame and in the name of responsibility, they will say, you have the power to say no to the temptor and that is what we are saying. I will say, but the idea is to expose the lie on which the temptor arouses temptation. And for this we need the Holy Spirit of Truth. We must see through the devices of the devil so as to extinguish temptation and for this we need Godly wisdom. I therefore disagree that God tests us, or tempts us. He will not be tempted, nor does He tempt anyone. In fact He supplies the way to escape temptation. They will then say, but we can reject the Holy Spirit. What kind of hypocrisy is this defense of freewill? On one side of the brain they began by saying we can say no to the temptor and on the other side of the brain they are saying we can say no to the One who makes a way out of temptation. Sounds like vanity to me. It's like watching a man fall down and smack his face and say,"I meant to do it". That is for certain. In fact if we are to understand anything about ourselves and why we disobey, we must ascertain the errant line of reasoning that prompted disobedience. I don't come away with these same morals. But I also may not see what you see. It is not just about obedience and disobedience as pertains to a man establishing his own righteousness. To me it is about proper esteem of God which requires knowing Him personally. I disagree in part. Certainly obedience to God is a desired result. But how can one have obedience to God when people in the highest authority under God, crucify God thinking they are serving God? If they could falter so badly, what makes us think we can do better via freewill? I hope you respond and trust that I mean no harm. A child saw his sibling whipped and he ran and hid his face and covered his ears. Later when the trauma had abated, he went unto the elders who had dispensed justice and asked, "Why is bad happening?" The elders said, "Because God gave mankind a freewill to obey or disobey God." Then the child asked, "Why would anyone want to disobey God?" And the elders replied, "because they have a freewill".

I just caught something else here. You say, " it is of course within your purview to discern that our ability to choose between fellowship with God or against it as, thankless". I wish to correct something here. I only discern the ability to to choose against fellowship with God as thankless.

~ Man's Will For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3 Or God's Will For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4 Man's Work Fails The Mark For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:5 While The LORD's Work IS The Mark But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Romans 10:6-7 And A Fellow Will Either Give God The Glory Glory Glory But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10 Or A Fellow Will Live Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Isaiah 43:10-13 To Steal It For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:3 ~ In My Experience A Man's Belief In Jesus So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 Is Directly Related To A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Christ The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 And The Strength Of A Man's Will To Believe In Jesus Is Directly Related To The Food And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4 A Man Will Eat Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16 You See O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe WOW, great post. Amen.

No, I'm saying they took HIM as God's attirbutes in us for granted, and thought it was themselves and were unthankful. They were carnal not spiritually minded. Well here is how Paul put it. Romans 1:21-22 New King James Version (NKJV) 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Yes we did it to ourselves in our ignorance, and we even blame others for that which we ourselves admit to doing. Where you see a spirit of not admitting guilt in what I present, I see a way to forgive and be forgiven on account of ignorance not guilt. We face death and hell now. So to be sorry for being disobedient is only a self-serving sorrow. For I know I do not want to believe God is a liar nor betray that Love that is on the cross because of my sin and guilt. Therefore I am sorry for the right reason, because someone else suffered. I'm not beating myself up for the mistake of being disobedient. It's not about me.It's about the beating Christ took and suffered so that all sins may be forgiven. I don't accept guilt, nor do I hand it out. I move on. Hebrews 6:1-20 New International Version (NIV) 6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, what were we ignorant of? you're spot on about pointing the finger anywhere but the mirror. when i cry tears in prayer it is for the lost, and for the sacrifice Christ has made for us. but i of course had to grow out of those feelings of guilt and truly accept grace freely given. it is all a process. although i do have sin to genuinely repent of daily that does nothing to devalue the chief Corner-stone's work on the cross. blessings, and may my and your spiritual maturity progress as the Holy Spirit sees fit. What were we ignorant of? That same thing we were unthankful for.

The only reason I had time to commit to this conversation in the first place is because I was on vacation. I just don't have to time otherwise to stay on top of this and have tried my best already. Now that I have to return to work, my focus while online will be my admin duties. Sorry to see you go. Thanks for trying your best with me.

Yes we did it to ourselves in our ignorance, and we even blame others for that which we ourselves admit to doing. Where you see a spirit of not admitting guilt in what I present, I see a way to forgive and be forgiven on account of ignorance not guilt. We face death and hell now. So to me to be sorry for being disobedient now is only a self-serving sorrow. For I know I do not want to believe God is a liar nor betray that Love that is on the cross because of my sin and guilt. Therefore I am sorry for the right reason, because someone else suffered. I'm not beating myself up for the mistake of being disobedient. It's not about me. It's about the beating Christ took and suffered so that all sins may be forgiven. I don't accept guilt, nor do I hand it out. I move on. Hebrews 6:1-20 New International Version (NIV) 6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,

Interesting. Please expound. sure, thank you for your interest in my views. well, i believe i have already expressed this to you in other words... i don't believe my apparent free will is potent enough to cause any true change in this world, because the origin of the power made manifest through me is not mine. my supposed will can be broken, as was proven to me upon being born again as a new creature through Christ Jesus. i do not even own myself, for i was purchased at a price. to assume i possess anything that i am not merely a steward of is folly. so in this sense, we are in agreement, partly. but i am, at the least, given the illusion of that liberty upon this grand stage of Creation, wherein the wheat is separated from the chaff. is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness? as for my second statement, those who have formally rejected Jesus Christ in their hearts, have done so willfully and whether or not they are blinded to the Truth by deception is irrelevant.. because their blindness is by choice. those who are slaves to sin knowing very well who their master is, willingly choose that slavery to the whims of their flesh, and are without excuse. willing participants who happily exercise wickedness, and knowingly reject righteousness. Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test. those prudent enough to truthfully seek, love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ through all tests of patience, will surely find sufficient oil within their lamps in their weakest hour. and the same are those who must be willing to assist the weaker brethren in their walk. Paul would have traded in his salvation for the salvation of another. that love is pure. but those lacking in True love and faith will be exposed, and cast into outer darkness because God knows the wickedness that brews within the hearts of men, and He is Holy and Just. it is the Father's will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of His Son, and His everlasting mercy is made manifest upon that Cross. and so your promoting of forgiveness is justified, in that we are to approach all matters concerning each other in the same loving kindness our Father has displayed for us. but i believe that willful disobedience must be appropriately defined. we are all sinners, but we are all imparted the power to overcome sin by He who is All-Powerful, and so sin should be judged as what it exactly is. Sin. love to you. Thank you for this post. I now see better what is at the foundation of your reasoning on this matter. Essentially the difference between my view and yours is, you look at it as a test, and I look at it as a lesson. More on that, But first, I would like to address, this question. is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness? Yes, it is but not by my freewill, or independent intitiative, but by divine providence of God's Word in my heart mind and soul. There is nothing good in the flesh that would recognize righteousness. Nor would the word righteousness even mean the same thing to the carnal mind. And so it is that semantics will now become a problem. For what if I am yet carnal as Paul so aptly put it? And this is why I make the distinction between a test and a lesson wherein both terms intersect from two perspectives. So that the failures of a test given, become a lesson learned if indeed any progress is made towards that end. And here where progress is stymied is also where I see pride. Hence a fool (proud) despises correction, and the wise Love instruction. So that brings me to the question of, what is behind this pride that despises correction? And I seek an answer so that I may learn a lesson. If I were to simply answer because I could, I have gained no insight. And so I note that the bible states that the children have the characteristics of their father. And these character traits are described in the moral paradigm as either to be born of God or born of the Devil. So I look to the devil to understand the foundation of the vanity in creation that usurps what is the energy of the Creator. And here I find that the devil is enamored with himself, not because he is made by God with many gifts and talents, but because he is unthankful, and therefore does not have the ability to understand what great gifts they are without being Lowly and without them. And this is revealed in how he shows disdain for those less gifted than himself. As if they could have been like him, if only they wanted to. Hence the scriptures show him in heaven accusing the brethren day and night with the idea that men sin because they simply want to in selfish servitude to themselves, rather than due to their weaknesses in being made of flesh which he cannot understand. Hence God chose the lowly and weak things to put to not the High and mighty things. Hence men will judge angels. Consequently, the devil is in fact projecting his own vanity upon those under him unbeknownst to himself in a blind hypocrisy. He is enamored with the clothes God gave him and has forgotten his nakedness. This mindset would therefore reject correction simply because it thinks it needs none and is all knowing like unto God. But this is a lesson for all, so that we who have been chosen out of the lowly things should remember lest it happen to us. Which brings me to this statement, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test. When Adam and Eve chose disobedience they accepted in their subconcious the same vanity inherent in Satan's false and subtle premise. Of course through the gift of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God and His Christ I can see this now. Therefore just as Adam and Eve were innocent, I too was vulnerable to this same premise which begets vanity prior to God's ecellent instruction through the Holy Spirit. So yes, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance which I think cannot be helped. For such vanity is inevitable in my estimation according to humility. They were cursed for their disobedience which was in fact, in the big picture, a blessing by which they could learn to be thankful for that which they originally took for granted. In all of this, I fail to see a freewill other than the one I described as a will set free by the knowledge of God. I have never discounted that we make choices or that we must willingly choose a direction in the moral paradigm, only that those choices are preceded or limited by an ignorance and knowledge of God. As a created being who has received some enlightenment in this matter only by God's grace, I see no avenue for blame without falling into the same vanity that began the whole ordeal. thank you for your thoughts. every trial is a test, and a lesson within itself so they do indeed intersect, whether it be the result of a failure or a success. there is of course always space for improvement on that which is born imperfect. my test has only begun, and i pray that the lessons that are brought to my attention are acknowledged as such as i continue seeking to place Christ at the forefront of every experience. i believe Paul's description of the daily proverbial struggle within, paints a beautiful contrast between our fallen nature, and our divine nature. true spiritual warfare begins upon coming to know a genuine actuality of your salvation. i don't blame this body, my fallen nature, or even sin itself. sin reeks of satan. nothing more than a glorified tyrant, personified. it can only tempt, entice, and draw upon my mortal weaknesses. but i have a choice to make that indeed depends on the pride of my heart. if i nurture that which is spiritual, then that which is spiritual shall triumph, and vice-versa.. Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. it seems to me, that if there is anything to blame, it is my independent initiative(or passivity) towards walking in righteousness. this is because our Father is a perfect gentleman, and fully respects our judgement of that which requires faith in action. and so, by His Divine Providence, it is within my purview to seek Him, or to turn my back. i am guilty on all counts by His Holy standard, and am blessed that my righteousness is inscribed through Christ. i thoroughly enjoyed your analysis of our mutual adversary, and may Christ continue blessing you in every thing. but i disagree with your final statement concerning our choices. perfected man who walked with God had no limitations of knowledge or ignorance of his Creator. We are talking semantics. When you say this, I only read you saying, We take God for granted and are unthankful. So also is why I don't like the concept of freewill.

Your missing the point. The same will that denies Christ is not the same will that accepts Christ. There is no place where someone stands and does both at once. There are degrees of faith as one comes out of darkness. But God does not give you the power to deny Christ. Light does not cast out Light. So what power behind the will denies Christ? Read the scripture. The children of the devil display the traits of the devil. A free wiill as you envision it, is you're free to both deny and accept Christ, is it not? You therefore envision free will as a free floating will able to do both by your own control. This does not exist. You think you choose between powers from somewhere in between rather than see all things began in servitude to God without any such choice available. From there the powers of darkness turned us away from God, and now the powers of Light turn us back to God. If people are in control over their selves and this in between is a fifty fifty equal choice all the time, then how do you explain Saul turning into Paul? How do you explain the apostles all being persecuted and murdered? Is that coincidence? No. There is a power of darkness orchestrating the silencing of the Truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it controls people. And this Gospel is spreading the news that there is a kingdom of God and the world is not want to receive it lest it admit there exists a kingdom of Light and they are in the kingdom of darkness. Consequently, I am not debating that we make choices but saying that there are spiritual powers behind our moral choices. Powers of darkness therefore reject the Light and all who preach of it, and powers of Light preach the truth knowing full well they will be persecuted for it. OK, I am done with this conversation. I have spent days trying to get you to see that free will is the ability to decide, be it for or against anything, yet you refuse to even try to understand. Instead you continue to try and force a different definition to the meaning of free will. You do not listen, but analyze. Instead of listening to what I say, you continue to "morph" my words into something it is not, then reply with your understanding. There is a time when we just has to let someone go and allow them find out through another means. I do pray that you do remove your blinders and continue to learn. God Bless! Come on OneLight. I'm doing my best here to not frustrate you. I'm frustrated too, right there with ya. I apologize for twisting what you mean to say. We are arguing semantics. You"re saying, I chose God, and I'm saying you could always turn to God because God was always there... I used to believe the same as you, so I see the difference. The difference is one is more thankful.

Your missing the point. The same will that denies Christ is not the same will that accepts Christ. There is no place where someone stands and does both at once. There are degrees of faith as one comes out of darkness. But God does not give you the power to deny Christ. Light does not cast out Light. So what power behind the will denies Christ? Read the scripture. The children of the devil display the traits of the devil. A free wiill as you envision it, is you're free to both deny and accept Christ, is it not? You therefore envision free will as a free floating will able to do both by your own control. This does not exist. You think you can be a child of God one moment and a child of the devil the next and so on back and forth. You think you choose between powers from somewhere in between rather than see all things began in servitude to God without any such choice available. From there the powers of darkness turned us away from God, and now the powers of Light turn us back to God. If people are in control over their selves and this in between is a fifty fifty equal choice all the time, then how do you explain Saul turning into Paul? How do you explain the apostles all being persecuted and murdered? Is that coincidence? No. There is a power of darkness orchestrating the silencing of the Truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and it controls people. And this Gospel is spreading the news that there is a kingdom of God and the world is not want to receive it lest it admit there exists a kingdom of Light and they are in the kingdom of darkness. Consequently, I am not debating that we make choices but saying that there are spiritual powers behind our moral choices. Powers of darkness therefore reject the Light and all who preach of it, and powers of Light preach the truth knowing full well they will be persecuted for it.

Well said Fez. How we practice this will is the crux of the problem. Here you have taken the term will and not applied free in front of it, wherein I can agree whole heartedly, because there are no semantics. Then you describe boundries that limit or compromise the word free whatever that free entails in it's intended application. Note that freewill to the carnal mind is free from the righteousness of God and freewill to the spiritual mind is free from being carnal minded. The word free can have two opposite meanings applied to the same word depending on one's perspective. For to be free to sin is to be a slave to righteousness, but to be free from righteousness is to be a slave of sin. Consequently, I have acknowledged that I only recognize the freedom from sin as the only true free will. For servitude to God is the holy order of things as it was in the beginning before Satan proposed the other option which is an unholy slavery to sin in the guise of freedom. Look again. Fez is speaking of free will, but because you did not see the word free, you agreed to what he said. This alone proves that you are against a word and not what it means. Well, actually if you read what I said, it depends on what it means or applied to as to whether I am against it or not. I'm not mad at a word, but rather a concept that obfuscates. I have no problem accepting the term free to be assigned to being free from sin, but I have a disdain for the word free being assigned to be free to sin. The freewill in the dictionary makes no such distinction as scripture does, so I don't recognize it as anything but illusory or humanist.

Well said Fez. How we practice this will is the crux of the problem. Here you have taken the term will and not applied free in front of it, wherein I can agree whole heartedly, because there are no semantics. Then you describe boundries that limit or compromise the word free whatever that free entails in it's intended application. Note that freewill to the carnal mind is free from the righteousness of God and freewill to the spiritual mind is free from being carnal minded. The word free can have two opposite meanings applied to the same word depending on one's perspective. For to be free to sin is to be a slave to righteousness, but to be free from righteousness is to be a slave of sin. Consequently, I have acknowledged that I only recognize the freedom from sin as the only true free will. For servitude to God is the holy order of things as it was in the beginning before Satan proposed the other option which is an unholy slavery to sin in the guise of freedom.

free will noun free and independent choice; voluntary decision Philosophy: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses a personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine force. There is more on the site linked to, but it says the same thing. And your point is?

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God. I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus. But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will? The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will. Nope I disagree. Jesus said it Himself... Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Mat 7:8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. There is free will in every sentence.. Knocking requires a decision, asking, seeking, all require decisions made of your own free will. I don't see freewill in every sentence. I see necessity. Who asks to receive, when they have no need? Who seeks when they have no needl to find? Consider. Blessed are the hungry for they shall be filled. Elsewhere this hunger is described as a hunger for righteousness. The analogy is therefore, the need for food causes one to be hungry. It is written, God gave men stomachs so that they might thank God for their food. Hence God gave men both hunger and food. Where is the freewill? We do not choose to have hunger though we will choose to seek food because we are hungry.

Again, free will is the name given to the ability to choose. There is no need to add anything else to the definition of free will. I have read all of your loving responses and I thank you for them. I have chosen this one to respond to since I feel we are at a point of understanding where the central issue is a difference in how we view two words. The word free and the word will. I know that we make choices, that we will to do this or that. So that is not in dispute. Therefore, we should not waste our time pursuing that any longer. The word free however poses in my mind that there is no undrlying impetus or reason why we choose the way we do. This I cannot see. It is as if I had asked the question "why did I choose that?" And the answer came back, "because you could". As a means of enlightenment that answer just doesn't cut it.

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God. I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the name Jesus. But can't you see that both of these decisions required you to exercise your free will? The problem is the word free in front of will which is the cause of my disdain for the term. As I have said I turned to God out of necessity. As such I would consider that all events in my life have led me to God and I would also consider that this is not beyond God's design rather than a chance occurance of a free floating will.

Great questions Fez. The obvious answer to the first question is hearing and believing what I heard. I heard the Gospel, wherein it was said that the son of God came as a man and that he was crucified, did not fight back but submitted to the ordeal of the cross, and then prayed for forgivness to his Father for those who crucified him on account of they "did not know what they were doing". Three days later he arose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at God's right hand, where he now is in authority and makes intercession and advocates for mankind. When I came to believe that, I felt a Spirit of hope in an Eternal Love that transcended all evil. That is in contrast to an image of god I held prior to hearing, that was a god who would cast all sinners into hell unless they be good. And that good being described as keeping the commandments of God. I was raised Catholic, and was brought up seeing this man on a cross and told that he died for our sins, but I did not comprehend why, nor did I care. I had heard the Gospel all my life, but had not yet heard the Gospel. Sorry for the semantics. I was married at age eighteen and was in a place of dire predicament, so that I was forced to turn to some place for help out of necessity. There were no other avenues except the miraculous. So I turned to God and asked him to help me. I recall praying and saying that I did not know whether Jesus was His son, nor did I even know what that meant or why it was important. But I believed in Him and was asking for what He felt I needed. Long story short, I had heard it all my life but the revelation came when I was in trouble and turned to God. I don't see how I could say I chose to listen since I was asking to be heard and seeking a response. I credit my Catholic upbringing for at least knowing the Name Jesus.

Kindly explain your concept of Grace? That which God gives that is not earned or deserved. Hence whatever good we have, including 'the will' however limited or gifted comes by grace.

Interesting. Please expound. sure, thank you for your interest in my views. well, i believe i have already expressed this to you in other words... i don't believe my apparent free will is potent enough to cause any true change in this world, because the origin of the power made manifest through me is not mine. my supposed will can be broken, as was proven to me upon being born again as a new creature through Christ Jesus. i do not even own myself, for i was purchased at a price. to assume i possess anything that i am not merely a steward of is folly. so in this sense, we are in agreement, partly. but i am, at the least, given the illusion of that liberty upon this grand stage of Creation, wherein the wheat is separated from the chaff. is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness? as for my second statement, those who have formally rejected Jesus Christ in their hearts, have done so willfully and whether or not they are blinded to the Truth by deception is irrelevant.. because their blindness is by choice. those who are slaves to sin knowing very well who their master is, willingly choose that slavery to the whims of their flesh, and are without excuse. willing participants who happily exercise wickedness, and knowingly reject righteousness. Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test. those prudent enough to truthfully seek, love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ through all tests of patience, will surely find sufficient oil within their lamps in their weakest hour. and the same are those who must be willing to assist the weaker brethren in their walk. Paul would have traded in his salvation for the salvation of another. that love is pure. but those lacking in True love and faith will be exposed, and cast into outer darkness because God knows the wickedness that brews within the hearts of men, and He is Holy and Just. it is the Father's will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of His Son, and His everlasting mercy is made manifest upon that Cross. and so your promoting of forgiveness is justified, in that we are to approach all matters concerning each other in the same loving kindness our Father has displayed for us. but i believe that willful disobedience must be appropriately defined. we are all sinners, but we are all imparted the power to overcome sin by He who is All-Powerful, and so sin should be judged as what it exactly is. Sin. love to you. Thank you for this post. I now see better what is at the foundation of your reasoning on this matter. Essentially the difference between my view and yours is, you look at it as a test, and I look at it as a lesson. More on that, But first, I would like to address, this question. is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness? Yes, it is but not by my freewill, or independent intitiative, but by divine providence of God's Word in my heart mind and soul. There is nothing good in the flesh that would recognize righteousness. Nor would the word righteousness even mean the same thing to the carnal mind. And so it is that semantics will now become a problem. For what if I am yet carnal as Paul so aptly put it? And this is why I make the distinction between a test and a lesson wherein both terms intersect from two perspectives. So that the failures of a test given, become a lesson learned if indeed any progress is made towards that end. And here where progress is stymied is also where I see pride. Hence a fool (proud) despises correction, and the wise Love instruction. So that brings me to the question of, what is behind this pride that despises correction? And I seek an answer so that I may learn a lesson. If I were to simply answer because I could, I have gained no insight. And so I note that the bible states that the children have the characteristics of their father. And these character traits are described in the moral paradigm as either to be born of God or born of the Devil. So I look to the devil to understand the foundation of the vanity in creation that usurps what is the energy of the Creator. And here I find that the devil is enamored with himself, not because he is made by God with many gifts and talents, but because he is unthankful, and therefore does not have the ability to understand what great gifts they are without being Lowly and without them. And this is revealed in how he shows disdain for those less gifted than himself. As if they could have been like him, if only they wanted to. Hence the scriptures show him in heaven accusing the brethren day and night with the idea that men sin because they simply want to in selfish servitude to themselves, rather than due to their weaknesses in being made of flesh which he cannot understand. Hence God chose the lowly and weak things to put to not the High and mighty things. Hence men will judge angels. Consequently, the devil is in fact projecting his own vanity upon those under him unbeknownst to himself in a blind hypocrisy. He is enamored with the clothes God gave him and has forgotten his nakedness. This mindset would therefore reject correction simply because it thinks it needs none and is all knowing like unto God. But this is a lesson for all, so that we who have been chosen out of the lowly things should remember lest it happen to us. Which brings me to this statement, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test. When Adam and Eve chose disobedience they accepted in their subconcious the same vanity inherent in Satan's false and subtle premise. Of course through the gift of the Holy Spirit by the grace of God and His Christ I can see this now. Therefore just as Adam and Eve were innocent, I too was vulnerable to this same premise which begets vanity prior to God's ecellent instruction through the Holy Spirit. So yes, Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance which I think cannot be helped. For such vanity is inevitable in my estimation according to humility. They were cursed for their disobedience which was in fact, in the big picture, a blessing by which they could learn to be thankful for that which they originally took for granted. In all of this, I fail to see a freewill other than the one I described as a will set free by the knowledge of God. I have never discounted that we make choices or that we must willingly choose a direction in the moral paradigm, only that those choices are preceded or limited by an ignorance and knowledge of God. As a created being who has received some enlightenment in this matter only by God's grace, I see no avenue for blame without falling into the same vanity that began the whole ordeal.

I understand what your intentions are. You have made it loud and clear. You do not want people to think it is okay to sin, particularly and especially in Christ. I have seen many forms and degrees of a moral freewill. Mostly they describe some gray area where God and sin become a man's prerogative to choose between. I acknowedge man's ability to reason but discard the idea that Love is at one's discretion. There is still a little difference. Nothing of God is by our free will, nothing. Our free will is the ability to choose which road we travel down. Free will does not change anything God has for us, nor does it create. We are not robots or puppets where we are not able to decide for ourselves. I don't like the term robots. In my view It is always a half true proposition. Robots as we know can decide for themselves. For example, The self learning computer program named Watson, that just beat the greatest champions in the game of Jeopardy. This computer does not however comprehend Love. It can describe what love does or would do, but it cannot feel. But yes, just like this robot, we can choose which road to go down and yet I would not say this robot has a freewill as pertains to morality. Also,all computer language is written in binary code, something is or is not, O's and 1's. One more thing which I find quite revealing about the human will is something xero has said in a post on this thread. That is that the will is not only about making choices, but also inheritance. Hence scripture says this: 1 John 3:8-15 New International Version (NIV) 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

God is my Savior and my King, he is my Lord and my Maker, He is my Redeemer and He is my light. He is the light I persevere to live by and emulate. I have the free will to state this, and I have the free will to reject it. That I chose Him when he knocked was a matter of free will, free will He knew I would exercise before I was born. I am not a robot. God does not do robots. Robots have no free will, robots only do.... Robots follow a set pattern of instructions, a set of laws if you will, and they are able to do this even in darkness. Thing is, having no free will, they don't know the difference between freedom and just doing......... I am not a robot. I have a family, a couple of dogs. I feel emotions, I cry, I laugh, I have a soul etc... I am a man no better no lesser than you and made from the same lump of clay. The difference between what you believe and I believe is that I see no choice but to serve God, I desire no choice but to serve God. All things began in a holy and pure of heart servitude to God because He was honored as trustworthy, not because we chose to... He is my Light and my Life, (my sentience). I lost that once in Adam and I got it back in Christ. I didn't choose the Christ, I believed in the Christ. Upon the revelation of him, I believed because the remnant of the Word of God in my heart recognized the Word come in the flesh. I therefore could not do otherwise. To consider that I have the option to reject God, is ignorance of God, vanity, and a lie of the devil. There is no I believe today but I may not believe tomorrow. Either God is trustworthy or He is not, there is no in between. The faithful do not do unfaithfulness. Ahhh...Free will at work then! I don't see grace as freewill.

The religious system of the time was through the laws of Moses. And the law is recognized as a form of righteousness for those who are obedient to it. So I agree with that assessment. They are blind to the righteousness that comes by faith. And here freewill is an issue. For it was presumed that God had given the law because He expected men to keep it wherefore if any man did not, then it was by his choice not to. Hence God said, I set before you Life or death, choose Life. But that was the Old Testament which was in the letter. In the New Testament however, the law is seen as a means to make sin known, implying that men could not keep it of their own righteousness due to weakness (infirmity) of the flesh. Paul testifies that through the law sin was empowered rather than diminished, because although men may agree with the law and would choose to keep it, they only failed and were instead condemned to death by it, because although the law was spiritual, it was not by faith. So it is revealed that sin and righteousness is not a matter of choice, but a matter of grace through faith in the Christ, a spiritual necessity. Consequently in Christ, we are obligated to forgive others their sin so as to be forgiven for ours. Also because we are under grace sin loses power over us even as we believe unto righteousness not counting it as our own. Yes, I agree we are not excused for our wrong doing when in Christ. And there is a distinction to be made between those who are in Christ and those who are yet slaves to sin. Nonetheless, the walk out of darkness is not an instant one for most Christians. The power of sin over our wills diminishes as we forgive others. That is my experience. The less we seek righteousness through the works of the law, the less power sin has over our wills. The more we believe that God is our Light and it is not of ourselves, the more righteous we become. As God said, My strength is made perfect in weakness. Thank you for this. I might add the desires of the heart that are ungodly are there because of vanity. I understand what your intentions are. You have made it loud and clear. You do not want people to think it is okay to sin, particularly and especially in Christ. I have seen many forms and degrees of a moral freewill. Mostly they describe some gray area where God and sin become a man's prerogative to choose between. I acknowedge man's ability to reason but discard the idea that Love is at one's discretion. Nevertheless, freewill is an accepted form of thinking all over the world. Most every person believes that they are in control of their actions whether they call it a gift from God or evolution. Most people do not stop to think of what it means to believe unto righteousness, and why the spirit of Christ is a necessity to have that righteousness that defeats sin. Everyone bases the necessity of believing on freewill for there to be responsibility. As if all hell will break loose and everyone overnight will start to murder, rape and steal without fear of punishment. Not so. For Love does not exist upon the fear of punishment. That is only one of the lies in the subconscience which belief in freewill brings with it. It is in fact the responsible thing to admit that we are helpless in overcoming sin without that righteousness that comes through the Faith that God is our Light. His righteousness causes us to walk in His ways and act more responsibly. We must cherish the Love that is God in us. You need only use the word "will" to establish that we make choices. But behind our moral choices are either powers of darkness or powers of Light and are by definition not freely made so long as ignorance of this exists. See the thousand demons cast out of the wild man into the pigs, who immediately all run off a cliff unto their deaths. Morally speaking, the option to sin was never proposed by God. For when did God ever say, I have given you the ability to reject me and live? It was the devil that proposed we had a choice to disobey God and not die. Hence those who believe in freewill would include atheists and humanists and secularists. Never does it come into their minds that the devil is controlling them through deception, nor that the love in their hearts is God rather than their prerogative, because of their blindness of freewill. I must agree that the temptor is ever present in the air, but not in my heart. So yes he is ever in my thoughts as I put him under my feet through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hence I count a moral freewill one that is set free through the knowledge of God (The Holy Spirit of Truth which comes in the name of the Christ). I can even agree that I have a home while others are homeless and I am warm where others are cold, I am full where others are hungry. Therefore I am a sinner. But the walk in Christ does end vile passions as people walk in the spirit of a pure and understanding forgiveness, thankfulness, and charity. And yes we see through a glass darkly, so I do not see everything. But, it doesn't set people free to tell them they knowingly and wantonly sin because they simply choose to. For this means they simply could choose not to which undermines the Gospel. I feel that such teaching brings condemnation upon people when they struggle to not sin and only fail. They become convinced they must be no good and God becomes a terror of hell, so they leave the faith, though they never even truly experienced it. I don't disagree entirely. But this I must say. That Paul speaks of the infirmity (weakness) of the flesh many times, and it is not an analogy. God has chosen the lowly things to put to not the High and Mighty things so that no man may boast, but only God be glorified. Peace.

Interesting. Please expound.