childeye

1 Tim 2:14-15 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NKJV are you equivocating this on purpose -you saying he was and God saying he was not? Love, Steven I said nothing about "he was God and he was not". Was Jesus equivocating when he said render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's? I am drawing a distinction between how Eve was deceived and how Adam was deceived. I am trying to not say Adam knew what he was doing in trusting the woman who was deceived. For if I say he was not deceived, then you will most likely take that to mean that I believe Adam knew exactly what he was doing against both God and himself. I already pointed out that you are taking Timothy 2:14 out of context. The criminal mind should not be in authority over the gullible. How do you not see what is common sense.?

First, Thanks for your response. Secondly, Yes, sin is a product of ignorance. For he said the "Truth will set you free". Now maybe I'm stupid, but this means to me that a man is held captive to sin by a lie that they believe to be true.. .Jesus said, 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” 34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Third, I never said sins were accidents. I was pointing out that people can be responsible for something and yet not do them knowingly or wantonly, which is where we had agreed concerning "forgive them , for they know not what they do". 1 Peter 1:14 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. Ephesians 4:17-18 New International Version (NIV) 17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Third: yes all sin is a product of prideful flesh for the woman was told she would become like God. It was Cains pride that was behind his angst against his brother. Isaiah 14:13 New International Version (NIV) 13 You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.[a] Job 41:33-34 33 Nothing on earth is its equal— a creature without fear. 34 It looks down on all that are haughty; it is king over all that are proud.” Romans 8:3 New International Version (NIV) 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[b] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, Romans 8:7 New International Version (NIV) 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. This doesn't make sense. Yes the person knows he is committing a sin and they willfully choose to do so. However, How is it immaterial to seek to understand why the person does this? They knew they were naked and that is why they were ashamed. Genesis 3:10 New International Version (NIV) 10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” Sin did come from the devil. John 8: 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 1 John 3:7-10 New International Version (NIV) 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. Respectfully, to my knowledge everything I have said is supported by scripture unless it is an area where scripture is not specific. I told you I am a Christian. I have never read any universalist doctrine so I cannot comment on what a universalist believes.

Respectfully, the doubt came about because of the serpent. Only if we forgive therefore, will we be forgiven.. Matthew 6:12-15 New International Version (NIV) 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation,[a] but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’ 14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. John 9:41 New International Version (NIV) 41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains. Matthew 12:31 New International Version (NIV) 31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Here are some scriptures to back up my thoughts on post 74. Well of course there is the original lie wherein we lost faith through: Genesis 3:4-5. But I would point out that verse 1 one says the serpent was most cunning of all God's creation. I assume you all know Adam and Eve were innocent. I take this to mean mankinds wit was no match for Satan. 4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Here Satan subtly implies god is a liar in verse 4. And in verse 5 he implies that god is only lying to keep us down and god knows we could be like him. What a subtle lie since we were already like him. Upon considering this lie we are already doubting Gods intentions toward us which is to lose faith in His righteousness Who is our righteousness. Romans 1 verse 17. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[b] This means God will make known His righteousness which is by faith wherein before we had doubted and this doubt preceded our disobedience. verse 18. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Now here as Martin Luther taught, Paul is refering to all men. And we know this because in Romans 2:1 he says therefore no one has any excuse to judge for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself. 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Here we see that God is our goodness and this is what is meant by invisible things, our godliness which exists in us because He made us. Also see John 1 the Word was the light of man and the life of man. All that was created was created through the Word, he came into the world but the world knew him not. 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Here we see that when we knew him as in the past we did not esteem Him as God which reiterates above the godliness we take for granted since obviously we were unthankful. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Here we see we thought wisdom belonged to us rather than attributing it to Him. Hence elsewhere in scripture it is said that God has confounded the wise and chose the lowly things so that God alone would be glorified and not men. Also scripture says that Christ has become wisdom to us. 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Here we see that men created their own image of god that was like corruptible man. That is like saying we still believed in the false image presented in the Garden of Eden that was corrupt as in a self-serving god. Now the destruction of the devil: Hebrews 2: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 1 John 3: 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Noe here we see that the devil has the power of death which I take to mean the keys to hell and death which Jesus took from satan after he had been in hell for three days and three nights. Revelations 1:18 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Collossians 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. The law being nailed to the cross and spoiling principalities and powers. Galatians 3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Mark 12: 12 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. 2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty. 4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled. 5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some. 6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. 7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.' 8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard. Revelation 12: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Luke 22: 2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people. 3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. Revelation 12: 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Matthew 7: 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Titus 1:15 King James Version (KJV) 15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

This is incorrect according to Scripture 1 Tim 2:13-15 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NKJV Love, Steven Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind. Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so! A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven Yes Adam was not deceived as the woman was is what Paul said. So what? Here's what God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and eaten of the tree". Of course you can say what you want according to what you believe. Hence our hearts are revealed in our words. My concern for you is that you understand that what you think and say about this matter of sin is the same measure that will be used against you. What you say about Adam is what you say about yourself. There is the error Childeye... I have read you since you when you first came on and that answers what I have not been able to determine! You say one thing and then another as though you are seeing yourself as consistent but in fact all the children scratch their heads because of the vacillating upon points! This is not a personal attack but fact- first you say Adam was deceived then when God's Word is plainly stating He was not you say so what! Well the so what is what determines whether or not you are His or not! To make Jesus Lord is to make Jesus everything within us and to drive out all else. His Word literally becomes our mind and and way and our desire forever etc... You have stated where you believe you have a control of outcome by the judgment you use! Taken from here I am supposing Matt 7:1-2 7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. NKJV God is a Righteous Judge and His Standard 'IS' set eternally in His Person ***nothing can change that*** God's Word and God are One in the Same... So as this perfect standard 'IS' God we either adjust to The Standard or we perish with the false standards.... as we are born imperfect and will judge imperfectly so God's Word is fulfilled above with the measure you use so will be the measure we receive back.... 'You must be born again' and after God leaves us in the old to learn to overcome the old and learn the whole relational why of God... this is how relationship with Him 'IS' built by knowing Him through His Word and agreeing with His every way and doing! Therefore- if my existence is from His New Life put within me I will conform to His Standard and there is complete agreement within me of Him and his Ways 'AS' The 'ONLY' way-> non manipulative<- and completely within His Person Forever! The Father has said 'God 'IS' not mocked' and what 'IS' written is what will be done! Literally His Word 'IS' the Life in Him a foundation that cannot be moved and all who lie down upon it in their being shall be saved... It shall be now and forever God our Center of Being and Purpose toward His Pleasure our delight... Love, Steven Thanks for the response Steven and for your Love. I am sorry about the semantics. I am doing my best to not say Adam knowingly wanted to slander his Maker while admitting he made a mistake. Yes Adam was deceived as in he listened (trusted) to a woman who was deceived, in lieu of God the Maker of both of them. Is it wisdom for me to believe Adam knew what he was doing when he did this? I hope you read the last half of post 74.

A couple of things that come to mind here...if you would care to elaborate... First, although I agree that Adam had no knowledge of good and evil prior to eating the fruit, I would submit that innocence or lack of knowledge in this case is not a prerequisite for obedience. A soldier for example, may not understand the reason behind an order, but he understands that he must obey that order. Adam was given an order, and though he may not have understood the reason behind the order, he obviously had the capacity to understand that he must obey. Obviously, Adam knew the difference between obeying or disobeying God (though he may not have understood the consequence), else why would God tell Adam not to eat of the fruit in the first place? Also, in your assertion that Adam's fault was that he listened to his wife is IMO only partially correct. Genesis 3:17 states: Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: Because is a conjunction meaning "for the reason that" or "the fact that"...(For the fact that you listened to your wife)...and last time I looked, "and" is also a conjunction...and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:.... Adam's sin was not that he listened to his wife, Adam's sin was that he disobeyed God. I can't find anywhere in the scripture anything that says listening to one's wife is sin...but I can find all sorts of passages that say disobeying God is sin. You make great points. And you ask great questions. Let me address the issue of faith. When Adam was made all things were built upon faith, wherein God's intentions towrads us were never questioned and disobedience was never considered because of this. But after a doubt in God's intentions toward us was put forth by Satan for consideration, through a subtlety I might add, mankind who had never pondered a lie before, became unsure and malleable. And of course you are right that Adam knew he was not suppose to eat of the fruit, but that was now befuddled by the fact that he was unsure of god's intentions. Personally I believe he was troubled by this. I imagine I would be. Therefore, I don't think he wanted to believe that God was lying to him. But I imagine the woman having eaten and now with eyes open was there prodding him to trust her was too much, and so I think he ate to find out whether it was true or not. I was not there but I as I am not sure I would have faired better than him, I feel safer in the humility of giving Adam the benefit of the doubt. Certainly Paul said he was afraid that the early church would fall victim to Satan's subtlety even as Eve did. He even said so. But I know I have found myself regretting many times my following my pride which has no legitimate excuse other than I was a fool.

Thank you for your well thought out response. Yes, I believe all sin is based upon an ignorance of Truth in some manner or degree. For I am certain that no sin can be based upon any sound Truth. Consequently, anyone who serves sin must be based believing some form of lie. It stands to reason that a mind that is deceived would willfully do what it errantly perceives to be in his or her owns best interests. Of course there is a moral imperative that would require everyone to do what they think is right or wrong. But as is evident on this thread, not all always agree on what that is. Consequently there is division and wars in the world, both sides doing what they believe is right. That is why the Christ intrigued me, when I first heard of him. For this man did not fight for what was his God after the manner of other men, but instead accepted a cross of torture and forgave his assailants. Moreover his assailants were those who were both religious and secular authorities. Hence men who thought they were serving God, persecuted and murdered those who were serving God. After following his teachings I have found a Truth that defeats all lies and has set me free. Therefore I can tell you there is a blindness wherein men walk in a hypocrisy wherein they do not see and that this blindness is the same ignorance or belief in lies that begets sin. I see a father of all lies in a powerful cunning creature called Satan, and I see that all lies end in hypocrisy. I understand what you are getting at. If I may comment on these verses? The first Romans 2:14-15 is meant to point out that the Jews are no better than the gentiles when it comes to sin even though they have the law. But your application is correct in using it to point out that men have empathy, or a conscience. The second scripture Romans 1:19-21, speaks of God's wrath and the reason for it. In short, it is saying that God is man's righteousness and the invisible attributes of godliness in mankind are there by virtue of our being made by God. Elsewhere in scripture it says that His Word through which He created us is the life and Light of man. But men were unthankful and thought they were wise rather than attributing wisdom to God. And so in this vanity based upon a lie, God was taken for granted and was imagined to be like a corruptible man and god was not esteemed as God. For there is no godliness in man apart from God, only carnal impulses. Further on in this passage this is proven because God gives men over to the lusts of their flesh to become abominations and they indeed do become abominations filled with vile passions and wicked selffish intent. So it is that here we see in the definitive, there is no excuse for worshipping the creation over the Creator. That is an axiom put forth by Paul so as to build an indisputabe foundation of reasoning to show the crucial mistake playing in the minds of men that is the source of God's wrath, our vanity, and our lustful sinful condition. It is not meant to condemn men as wantonly and knowingly trying to make God angry or that so we desire to become that which is vile. This is what I will give you. I hope it clears things up. This is from a post I wrote: Oh you beautiful and Loving people of God. Thank you for all of your wonderful responses, full of insight and gifted wisdom. I think all of your answers are full of Truth. And before any thought that I am practicing flattery enters the air, I would like to show you why I say that you are all full of Truth and why I posed the two questions. If you recall I had asked of what am I guilty of? And how does the blood of Jesus cleanse my conscience? Both of these questions are closely related. For if I do not know what I did wrong there can be no sincere sorrow. There can be no getting right before God. For if He asked me what I am sorry for and I cannot tell Him, then I am still estranged and my apology is invalid. Nor is there any true repentance. It would be a simple thing to say I am sorry for ever disobeying God, but since I now am kicked out of the garden and face death, such an apology would be self-serving. So it is that I have seen that mankind while innocent in the Garden, did fall prey to Satan's cunning and subtle slander. And that in the very moment they considered that God was a god that would lie to us and keep us down so as to lift himself up, their hearts and minds were experiencing distrust for the very first time. And the Loving Image of our Loving and Holy Father was questioned as falsehood. And so we read in Romans 1 where men had traded the Truth for a lie and that when we knew God we did not esteem Him as God and likened Him to man, even though all that was good in us was His Spirit. We thought ourselves wise rather than thanking Him and in such vanity we became estranged from God. Now I know the very seed and root of the black thing that sits upon my conscience. I would beat myself to death if only I could take back the pain of betrayal that I had handed my Loving God who is Jealous for me. I do know what I am sorry for. Now for the second question, How does the blood of Jesus cleanse my guilty conscience? How does someone elses paying for my sin make my guilt go away? The answer is a bit more complex. If you recall, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he first sowed in the Garden of Eden. He also came to destroy the enmity between man and God. For this is the work of the devil as can be seen in many scriptures such as Job. And in Revelations where it is said he makes accusation continually before God. But Satan is a liar and consequently a hypocrit. On one hand he tempts and on the other he accuses and like a bookie he plays both ends against the middle unto his profit while he demeans both man and God in Whose Image we are made. Now some may not like what I say here, but I believe the law was a trap for Satan. For we know the law was administered by angels. As the guardian Cherub the devil could have the keys to hell and the power of death. So I believe he usurped the law to accuse and to tempt and that he is a self serving merciless legalist. He thinks men are to serve the law rather than the law serve men. But when the time was right, God sent His Word made flesh. And because Satan did not comprehend mercy, he did not see his own demise in crucifying this man according to the law. The scriptures that back this up are many. Satan entered into Judas, and the vineyard keepers saw the son and thought they could get his inheritance. Quite telling is that he nailed to the cross the ordinances that were against us and made a spectacle of Principalities and powers. But my favorite is in Revelations where it is said that Jesus was caught up to heaven and men overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and by their testimony. What I mean to point out is that the cross was meant to defeat Satan and his works. And it was Satan being the guardian Cherub, who usurped the law to crucify the innocent, even the very son of God. I don't think he saw it coming when Jesus said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do", and "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" And after this was witnessed in heaven, war broke out in heaven and Satan was cast out. So it is that Satan was made a spectacle of and by his own hand he was shown to be a merciless self righteous overzealous prosecutor. Again my point is to say that the cross is what was Satan's demise. Okay. Now when I first heard the Gospel (Christ crucified) I believed that I had seen a Love that transcended all that is comprehensible. And I wondered whether Jesus meant it when he said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It took me most of my life to finally believe it. For I saw that at the beginning of man's fall it was an innocent mankind that had been duped by a creature far more cunning. And I also found that as I believed this I began to forgive everyone for everything since to condemn anyone only meant that I myself was saying that Adam and Eve as well as myself meant to slander God on purpose, and therefore I was still believing the original lie that God was unholy. And that is how I was able to have a cleansed conscience. That is how we overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by our testimony. I say this because at the heart of all division, including on this forum, is Satan playing the ends against the middle. And it becomes apparrant in our theology when at the end of our reasoning we think we must blame either God or mankind for what happened, when in fact it was neither. It was simply Satan playing both ends against the middle. So I hope you see that all of you are right in whatever stage of belief you are in, and I am not patronizing any of you.

This is incorrect according to Scripture 1 Tim 2:13-15 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NKJV Love, Steven Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind. Paul makes a statement Adam was not deceived... Adam ate the fruit he was told not to by God! Therefore I can say Adam sinned for well knowing His sin in doing so! A hermeneutical principle- when the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense... now I turn you over to the wall you may argue with it awhile Love, Steven Yes Adam was not deceived as the woman was is what Paul said. So what? Here's what God said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and eaten of the tree". Of course you can say what you want according to what you believe. Hence our hearts are revealed in our words. My concern for you is that you understand that what you think and say about this matter of sin is the same measure that will be used against you. What you say about Adam is what you say about yourself.

For the record, God did not want Adam to disobey Him for Adams's own good. I think that is clear to any child. However, when Adam was faced with the decision of who to trust, he lacked confidence in himself and listened to the woman. He knew better but waivered. His disobedience brought a sinful condition of carnal pride upon all mankind wherein we all have sinned. Therefore we all have sin and have sinned, not because we choose to. Romans 5:12 New International Version (NIV) 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Romans 7:14-17 New International Version (NIV) 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate, I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. Yes I do mitigate a person's responsibility for having sin even as Jesus and Paul taught us to have mercy and understanding. Jesus called sin a sickness. No one chooses to be sick. If Jesus advocates for the sinners against the self-righteous, then so do I. Matthew 9:10-13 New International Version (NIV) 10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners Titus 3:3 New International Version (NIV) 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. How is it, because I consider sin a sickness as Jesus does, and because I believe sin is a condition inherent through Adam as Paul taught, that I am a false teacher?

True. Eve was duped into believing god was a liar through a subtle lie. And so she ate first and her eyes were open first. Half true. Adam was convinced to eat by the woman who had been deceived but whose eyes had been open. Genesis 3:17 New International Version (NIV) 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. Respectfully, I must disagree. Adam was innocent without the knowledge of good and evil while in the garden of Eden. Cain however had inherited the condition of sinfulness wherein he felt a prideful jealousy against his brother that was ungodly. Moreover, trusting in my wife rather than myself is a lack of confidence, not to be equated with murdering someone. So respectfully, I must disagree. However, I understand why you have unwittingly conflated the two. To summarize: Your point is that Adam's not believing God and counting god a liar was a premeditated willful act, while I am claiming it was an innocent mistake that could happen to anybody. But we know for certain that God Himself said in Genesis 3:17 that what Adam did wrong was he listened to his wife. So thankfully you are wrong about Adam, since God is not a liar. But it's okay that you are wrong, it's an innocent mistake that could happen to anyone.

Hi OneLight. I would ask you to take note of the scripture above where it says,"If it seems evil to you". Clearly, Joshua is impressing upon the people that there is something wrong with choosing another god. Just as your moniker implies, there is only One God and there is nothing wrong with serving Him. Joshua is implying there is something wrong with the minds of a people that would seek a different God and this is why people like me don't like the philosophy of free will. For while we have an ability to choose by means of being able to reason, our reasoning is compromised if we have an ignorance of godly things and that is a blindness which we would not see. I happen to believe therefore that a freewill is one who has been freed by the knowledge of God wherein there is Life. If we know God, we will desire to serve Him and Him alone. If we think we have a choice,not only do we not know Him, we do not even understand the term God. Choice is all through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. If you choose to not believe in what scripture has to say, you can choose not to. That is your choice, and we will all stand accountable for what path we choose to follow. If you wish to continue this discussion, start a new thread, for free will is not what this thread is about. Choice is all of life. There is not one second where we are not choosing to do something. Hence I am not debating whether there are choices to be made. I am pointing out that there are no other gods and anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant of that fact, plain and simple. I think you would agree.

He is the saviour. If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from? Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us. Enough of platitudes. There are over 330 references to sin in the NT alone. Accidents are not sins, but accidents. Respectfully, sin is a product of the flesh. That is not a platitude, it is reality. I see no sin that was not conceived in prideful flesh including condemning others for making the same mistakes. The merciful shall receive mercy. It's not a platitude if you live it. I said accidents can happen and in this i am refering to accidents. In the garden wherein Adam and Eve were duped into believing God was self-serving and a liar, It could happen to anyone. I am being merciful and understanding. This is what God desires and it is a Godly attribute, not a Satanic one.

I believe in a free will that is set free from sin by the Truth of the knowledge of God. I therefore also identify an enslaved will. Since righteousness is based upon faith that God is the Eternal Spirit of Love, He is therefore our righteousness and all godliness are His attributes seen and witnessed in those He has created. I see no reason why determinism would not be applicable here. Since He is our righteousness, we condemn ourselves when we fail to acknowledge this. There is no excuse for worshipping the creation above the Creator. This is an axiom where in Romans 1, Paul uses this self-evident truth to form a foundation in our reasoning upon which to show our crucial mistake. It is a profound ignorance that takes God for granted just as an ignorant child takes his parents for granted. A child will only fully appreciate this when they become full circle and experience the necessary longsuffering with their own children. It is also therefore incumbant upon us to have understanding and mercy upon our children because we know what it was like to be them. Therefore, however much we condemn others we condemn ourselves. But God does not wish to condemn anyone.

I never said man is not responsible for his actions. Read the record. Nor have I said we did not sin. Read the record.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin. It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie. Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another? It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words. No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Onelight I answered this already. Yes, there is judgment. See above about men running a race. They will be judged on their life actions, but also we know that men will be judged by what measure they use to judge others. Even so, Jesus said if you wish to escape judgment, don't judge. Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Your statement usually comes from those who refuse to see their error when it is pointed out to them. As for your understanding of what they will be judged for, here is scripture that does not agree with you at all. Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire I fail to see where what I said disagrees with this scripture, particularly where you have underlined. Please note the record where I said, "They will be judged on their life actions". Same thing. Apart from that I also quoted from the scripture Matthew 7: “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. I also believe this is true since how we judge others is an action in life.

Who is pin? And show me the scripture.

Beloved~! Respectfully Sin Is No Accident Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:13-17 And Still It Is True But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Proverbs 8:36 Jesus Saves For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 Whosoever Will And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17 For the record. Satan tempted mankind , God didn't tempt us. I would therefore respectfully ask that you not imply that I have said otherwise. Yes sin is a lust of the flesh. Therefore, I would respectfully ask that you not imply I have said otherwise. Thank you for recognizing that a man who sins against God wrongs his own soul, for this is proof that men who sin do so because they are deceived.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin. It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie. Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another? It is plain to see that you claim people who sin do so out of ignorance, and that is not true. Even as a child we learn that we cannot steal or lie, but we choose to do so in certain circumstances mostly for selfish reasons. People do know when they are sinning. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came? One reason is to convict the world of sin. If there were no sin, then this would not be true. To me, when you claim that people do not sin outside of ignorance, you are indeed twisting what Christ said, for you quoted His words. No, that was a sidestep you want me to accept as an answer. Allow me to be direct in my questions and you can be direct in yoru answers. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Onelight I answered this already. Yes, there is judgment. See above about men running a race. They will be judged on their life actions, but also we know that men will be judged by what measure they use to judge others. Even so, Jesus said if you wish to escape judgment, don't judge.

This is incorrect according to Scripture 1 Tim 2:13-15 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. NKJV Love, Steven Context Steven. Respectfully, the scripture you are using is about who should have authority over whom, between the man and the woman. The woman was deceived because it was her whom Satan beguiled. The man however, was convinced by the woman who had been deceived. This scripture therefore does not mean to imply that Adam knew what he was doing and purposefully slandered God while the woman did not purposefully do it. For the scripture would then be saying, that the one who knowingly meant to slander Who is Holy should have authority over the one that was deceived into doing it. That's like saying the criminal mind should have authority over the innocent mind.

He is the saviour. If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from? Respectfully, I would rmind you that accidents can happen and people are responsible even though they did not intend to cause hurt. This is a fact, unless you wish to say that the measure you judge with has no such allowance. Therefore, I did not say men are not responsible for what they have done, I am saying they did not mean to do it. So I would say Jesus saves man by showing the worship causing divine Love of God, while at the same time defeating a merciless self-serving prosecutor with the power of death who was against us.

First off, Onelight has no guile either. Secondly, your statement that I bolded is patently false. A person about ready to have sex with a woman who is not his wife is not ignorant of what he is doing. He knows very well it is wrong and is not ignorant of the fact. It was an easy statement to reply to, but you did not actually reply to it, and it would be you that is engaging in semantics and feints instead of simply saying what you both mean, and believe, because you seem to be saying that it is Satan who is responsible for sin, and not mankind. Satan tempted. He did not make the conscious choice to sin when it comes to mankind. He is responsible for his sin of rebelling against God, and man is responsible for choosing sin. You didn't answer the question, so I will ask it again. Are you a Universalist? It is a simple "yes" or "no" question. The statement I presented in bold, which you stated as falsehood, I still stand by it. Using your example, it is clear to me that the person ready to have sex with a woman who is not his wife is under the false impression he will be gaining something, otherwise there would be no temptation. That man would be carnally motivated wherein there is no true fulfillment. Knowing it is wrong will make no difference for him since without Godliness (a spiritual matter), we are vile. Yes I am saying Satan is responsible for sin, which is to say that he is the father of sin. Jesus said exactly that. In fact that is where I learned it. Of course He tempted us; with a subtle lie placed upon the innocent and gullible. Yes it was a conscious decision by Satan to tempt mankind and it was a sin to do so. I am a Christian. I do not believe in divisions in the body of Christ.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin. It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie. Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Peace, OneLight. I do not seek to demean you and myself along with you. Look at the record. You state: "You cannot twist scripture to justify sin". I take that to mean you are saying I am twisting scripture so as to justify sin. You are wrong in your application. Why could you not have considered that I am using scripture so as to advocate for forgiveness of sin? So shall we start over in good faith and godly Love for one another? I sincerely don't know what you mean by not addressing your point about responsibility. I answered this: "Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible".

Luke 23:28-38 28 Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30 Then " 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!" and to the hills, "Cover us!" ' 31 For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" 32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. 35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, "He saved others; let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself." 38 There was a written notice above him, which read: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Context. Jesus said this for a very specific reason. Because they did not know who He was or why He was being killed, in reality. They were not responsible for that. If taken to it's extreme, one could say they were not responsible for the sin of His death because that was what He came to earth for in the first place. That scripture cannot be used as a proof text that no one is responsible for sin of any kind, because it is not addressing that. As Onelight said, if it means what you say it means, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die in the first place. If sin is beyond one's control and they cannot then be held accountable for it, there is no need for a Savior to redeem them from that sin. There would also be no need of final judgment, one way or another. Are you a universalist? I appreciate your forthright response and I sense no guile in you. I agree with you, they did not know what they were doing, even though they beat, stripped naked, reviled, whipped, tortured and murdered a man that had done no wrong. They were responsible because they did it, but they were excused because of ignorance. So has all sin begun in ignorance and so also is all deception built upon an ignorance. You say, "if it means what you say it means, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die in the first place". The problem with answering you forthrightly is an excercise in semantics. There would be no reason for Christ to die if men were not deceived and, if the devil was not self-serving. For Jesus did not die so I could get away with sin, but to show the Love of God that would give His life for ours in the face of a merciless and overzealous self-serving prosecutor. Do I believe all men will be saved? It is God's place to choose to make vessels of flesh that hold the purifed as well as the dross that occurs during refinement. It is His place to form a mountain of flesh so as to stand as a testimony forever. He will have mercy where He will have mercy. But it is good in God's eyes, for me to hope and pray that all men be saved.

He is the saviour.

On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin.