borntorebel

shiloh357 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8-9. Sorry shiloh, I prefer to believe Paul rather than you. You are basically saying that Paul wasted alot of time and papyrus talking about our salvation not being from works, but a gift from God. Yes, I do understand the OT, but I don't worship it as you do. You are preaching the same things that the Judaizers were preaching in Paul's day, putting christians back in bondage. I don't view the OT as a failed system. I agree with you that it was part of God's plan, a foreshadowing of what was to come, ensamples for us. I can't deny however, as you do, that the writers of the NT, as well as Jesus, clearly teach us to not go back to that from which Christ delivered us. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

nebula says,Have you not read in Romans where it says: Abraham was before the law. We're discussing the law here. Since the law didn't exist at Abraham's time, our discussion doesn't involve him. Yes Abraham was justified by faith, but he still had to do things to show his faith, i.e. sacrifice his son, move to a different land, etc. After proving his faith by doing all these things, God blessed him. That is the exact opposite of our salvation, where God sent His on to die for our sins even while we were filthy, despicable, evil enemies of God. We did not one single thing to earn our salvation. It is from God. If you or anyone else says anything but that, you are preaching a message of bondage condemned by Paul and the early apostles. nebula says, The system of sacrifice in the OT was something that came only from the sweat of a man's brow. Man had to work to even be able to offer sacrifices for himself. Jesus gave himself as the ultimate sacrifice without any help from us pitiful, despicable, sin-loving, evil humans. You're missing the point of what I'm saying. Maybe you should try reading what I'm writing instead of just getting on your soapbox and preaching. nebula says, Once again nebula, you misquote and misapply scripture. The verse you quoted from Hebrews isn't a quote from Habakuk. It doesn't even say the same thing. last time I checked, a quote is when you restate something from another work word for word, or say before or after the quote what you are adding or taking away from the original statement. And anyway, what does one tiny sentence at the end of the OT say about how God operated in the lives of the people in the OT? God was speaking directly to Habakuk about a certain situation.

nebula says, Well then, God has changed by your logic. In the OT, man had to live by the law to be righteous. Now God has told us the law can't make us righteous for no man can live by it 100%, so He has given us the gift of grace through His Son Jesus Christ. Those are two different ways of doing things, so by your fallen carnal logic, God changes. Sorry, my beliefs are based on scripture, not man's fallen logic and reasoning. nebula says, Well, as I recall, there was this little thing Abraham had to do. Something about sacrificing his promised miracle son that God gave to him. But I guess in your booik, that isn't "earning" God's favor. nebula says, If he didn't follow the ways of the law and sacrificial system, he didn't receive God's favor. David died without repenting of several sins. Do you know what they are? The OT is all about earning what you redceive from God. The belief system was based on works, not a free gift. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

shiloh357 says, Let's see what Paul has to say about the customs of the Jews; "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Acts. 3:28-29; "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them that are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." Romans 3:19-22; "Wherefore my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." Romans 7:4; "There is therefore now no condmenation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life n Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4; "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:7-9; "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?...He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?...For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them'. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith.' And the law is not of faith: but, 'The man that doeth them shall live in them.' Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':...Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. ...Is the law of God then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. ...Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:13, 5, 10-13, 19, 21, 24-25; "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" 1 Tim. 1:9-10. As we can see from these scriptures, the law was a foreshedowing of what was to come. The law can do NOTHING to save us from our sins. The law is for sinners, those who aren't followers of Christ. Now, that doesn't mean we can just throw out the law. Paul touches on that sentiment several times. We are told however, that we aren't to go back to the law and build a belief system that says it is what brings us to salvation or makes us righteous. It doesn't have the power to do that. If it did, there wasn't any need for Christ. I'm not saying we are to throw out the law. That is a direct contradiction to what Paul says. We are to realize that the law doesn't save us from our sins. The law is now written on our hearts. None of the old ways of the OT are meaningful now. We aren't to follow any of the ordinances, festivals, or rituals of the law or OT. We are to follow Christ and what He has taught us. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

nebula says, No I never even insinuated that. My point was that anytime grace is mentioned in the OT, it was due to what was being done by the person. It was something earned, not given freely. Now, there may be instances of "unmerited favor" in the OT, but it wasn't the way God worked with His people. It was an "earning" belief system, not a "grace driven" belief system. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

1. Please, state your congregation/church name. I am a Christian, a member of the body of Christ. 2. What is grace? Where does it come from? What is it for? What does it do? Can you feel it? Grace is the gift of God which is given to us as sinners to believe in Christ. It covers not just each individual, but the sending of Jesus christ to live a sinless life and die and be raised from the dead by God the Father so He would be our perfect sacrifice so we could come to God when called. 3. What is soul? Its essence? Its compounds? Where is it? Is it eternal by itself? The soul is the emotional aspect of our being. It will die along with the flesh. 4. What is to be holy? How can you describe such state? How is it different from normal state? How do you reach it? What is it for? We are holy because God has made us positionally holy. We are also to live holy lives by the power of God's spirit within us. 5. What is free will? Do we always have it? Who doesn't have it? It's a flase doctrine created by man to deny the soveriegnty of God. It isn't scriptural (when related to our ability to come to God without Him calling us and that we make choices without cause). We don't have it and never had it. 6. What is faith? Why do you believe? What makes you believe? Where faith comes from? Faith is what God has given us to believe on Him. It is a gift which we have the ability to strengthen, once it is given to us, through prayer, fellowship and the reading of God's word. 7. What is sin? What does it do? Why do we sin? Missing the mark, falling short of the goal. 8. What is salvation? How do we get it? It is God's gift to us. When God calls us, we have the opportunity to receive it from Him. 9. What is hell? What is Heaven? Who gets where? Hell is the unseen, the imperceptible. It the translation of the Greek word "hades". It is more accurately translated "grave", for it is where we go when we die. It isn't a mythical world of departed souls where they experience sensations. It is also translated from the Greek words Tartaroo and Geena. 10. Who is Christ? Why did He come? Why did He do what He did? Why did He come in that fashion and at that time?He is the Son of God, our Savior. He came to continue God's plan of bringing all to salvation. He did what He did because that is why He came, that was His purpose. He came at that time and in that fashion because it was God's plan, plain and simple. 11. What is the TRUTH? Where is it? How can you get to it? God is truth. Jesus is truth. We receive it from God. We can't "get" to it, it comes to us. 12. Why do you pray and go to church? I pray because it is how I communicate with my Father God. I am the church, I don't "go to church." May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Yahsway says, The sign wasn't a protection for Cain. God didn't say it would protect him from being killed, He said that whosoever killed Cain would have vengeance come upon him sevenfold. God cursed Cain, I wouldn't call that being gracious. Yahsway says, It is ONLY by grace that we are saved, through faith, both of which are the gift of God. Yes, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That was provided for by God's grace of sending His Son Jesus Christ. The faith we have to believe in God is given to us by God, it isn't something we muster up as unbelievers to bring God to us. God came to us and gave us all we need to be saved. Yahsway says, No, once again you misquote scripture; "For verily I say unto you, 'Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Mt. 5:18. The law will pass away and all that is within it when all is fulfilled at the end of the ages. If we sin we aren't automatically under the law. If you are a christian, a follower of Christ, when you sin you ask for forgiveness and you are forgiven, because we have a mediator Jesus Christ. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

shiloh357 says, Because I don't remove any part of scripture and look at it by itself apart from other relevant parts of scripture. All of scripture is inspired by God and doesn't contradict itself. If you remove parts of scripture and don't use other parts that seem to contradict it to help in determining it's meaning, you are creating false doctrines. In this one passage, it isn't James alone who is asking Paul to do this, but all of the elders who were with him. He performed the vow to be as a Jew unto Jews so he could win them over to Christ and away from the demands of their law. All the law is fulfilled in Christ and in loving God and your neighbor. Noone needs to follow any other law but these, for in these is all the law fulfilled. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Suzanne says, Yes, Paul did what they asked. When you read all of his writings, you see that Paul would be as a Jew unto the Jew in order to win them, not in order to show them they could continue in their legalistic, unprofitable religious ways to reach God. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Yahsway says, Actually Yahsway, out of the 38 times the word "grace" is used in the OT, it can only be seen as "unmerited favor" maybe 3 times. Guess it's not as prevalent as you thought. The grace we have from God is a result of Christ's life and death and resurrection. May God's grace, powr and peace be with you, Ron

Suzanne says, You should read all of what scripture says instead of just doing a cut and paste. Read Acts 21 from v. 17 thru to the end. You'll see what the religious Jews who weren't true followers of Christ had to say about Paul and his teachings. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Yahsways and everyone else posting against Colossians posts, why don't you read what he writes? He has said several times in several different posts that he isn't saying we are free to sin all we want. He hasn't once said that since we are under grace, we can do whatever we want and it doesn't matter. Now, Colossians, if you do believe this, you're wrong. To everyone else, Paul had this same problem with the message of grace he preached. That's why he spoke so much about it and defined it so thoroughly. The grace God has given us isn't a license to sin, it's a passport to follow God and enter into His kingdom. It's a gift that we did NOTHING to earn. We don't deserve it in any way. Nothing we do can obtain it, it is a free and gracious gift. If those of you who keep putting words in Colosians mouth would actually stop and read what he is saying without your theological glasses (meaning you're blinded by your own religious dogma) you would see he isn't saying what you think he is saying. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Yahsway says, Noone is saying grace is a license to sin. Why do you accuse people of saying things they aren't saying? Yahsway says, Actually Yahsway, Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness, not grace. Grace came through the gift of God's son Jesus. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

My personal opinion is that Paul is saying that whomever believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. The man asked what he must do to be saved. Paul tells him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and his household. A couple of verses later, Paul shares the good news with his household and they were baptized and saved. I don't believe that a family was called to follow Christ just because the father/husband was called. God calls each person individually, not corporately. It doesn't tell sus in Acts that the jailer was saved, and therefore so was his household, without them hearing the good news and being called themselves. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

idieds, Yes, you're right in the fact it's hard to determine what year is what when looking at the books of Kings and Chronicles. In my Thompson Chain Reference KJV, it says Elijah was taken into heaven in the year 896 B.C., and the letter written to Jehoram king of Judah between 889 B.C. and 885 B.C. This publisher of this bible doesn't believe as I do, so I'm not looking for someone who supports what I believe to give my statement support. From all the other research I've done, the only logical conclusion is the letter was written by Elijah after he was taken into heaven. I didn't go looking for something to support my belief. My belief was formed while studying things like this very idea about Elijah. My beliefs came from study, I didn't study and find things to support my belief. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

idied2 says, Yes, but after Elijah was taken up by the chariots. You should be more diligent in your studies. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

horizoneast says, No it comes from scripture. By your logic, all christians who believe we are saved by grace through faith are just parroting Martin Luther, and those who preach that faith without works are dead are just parroting John Wesley. That's the most ludicrous accusation I've ever heard. What Ray says agrees with what I found before I ever read his site. BUt of course, as you've proven before, and in this post, you don't listen to what I say, you just make up your mind and then stick it no matter how wrong it is. Since they're such grievous errors, too bad you don't the ability to refute or disprove a single statement I've made. Guess you're "true" belief doesn't even have the strength to refute "errors" as you call them. horizoneast says, Once again, proof of what I just said. I have told you I'm not a JW and have never studied their teachings while seeking truth, yet you still insist on sayihng I am one. Will your lies never end? Oh yeah, forgot that scripture that you do what your father does. horizoneast, The only thing I've said that came directly from his site I quoted as being from him. Just because we agree doesn't mean he's my master. I don't consider him that and haver never said anything of the sort. My Lord and Master is the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes God's word does warn against trusting the vain philosophies of man. You should heed God's warning and ask Him to open your eyes to see His truth. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Dr. Luke, Until you actually read and make an attempt to understand what I write, I have no reason to answer your questions. I've already answered them in my other posts. Every single time you or anyone else has presented a scripture to support your belief, I have gone to that scripture, read it, looked for what you're saying, looked at the Greek or Hebrew, looked at other reference books I have, and then stated my acceptance or refusal of what has been said. I can tell by yours, and others responses to my posts, that you don't even attempt to read or try and understand what I am saying. That's why I have no reason to repeatedly answer the same questions. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron P.S. This doesn't apply to everyone. Some of the people on here, whether they agree or not, have at least shown they attempted to understand what I am saying, instead of just typing out some knee jerk response to a belief system they think they disprove.

horizoneast says, Yes they do speak for themsleves. I haven't degraded anyone's personal relationship with Christ like you and others on here have done with me. If the truths of God cause you to be angry and divisive, that's your problem. I'm not angry or divided because of anything you and others have said regarding scripture on this MB. horizoneast says, So, you know of L. Ray Smith. Have we debated before? You sound like every person who doesn't have the ability or spiritual understanding to see God's truth, attacking people and making libelous statements you can't back up with scripture. That's ok, for just as God loves you, so do I. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

spirit filled says, Yes, I know that. That's why it's in parenthese. I didn't feel like going into a whole explanation of that problem. Thanx for your response though. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Anne says, The problem with this is that the Greek words Aion and Aionios don't mean "eternal" or any other word like it, and "hell" isn't in the bible (by it's current definition of a place where conscious people who sense what is happening go after death if they aren't followers of Christ). Some of the newer translations have changed the word, properly so, to hades. I made the "slap on the wrist statement" because I gathered that's what you meant when saying that sinners just go to hell for a little while and then are with God. Sorry that I misinterpreted what you were saying. I'm glad we can agree that God is far above anything we can think or imagine! :taped: May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

idied2 says, That's a nice little story. Too bad you have no scripture to back up the statements, "Elijah was no longer a man...", or "...he (Elijah) was disipated into the Spirit of God...". Also, how did Elijah do this, if he "had given up the flesh and.....was disipated into the SPIRIT of GOD?", which was written after he was taken up into heaven; "And there came a writing to him (Jehoram) from Elijah the prophet saying, 'Thus saith the Lord God of David thy Father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father; nor in the ways of Asa, king of Judah." 2 Chron. 21:12. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

_man says, The Greek phrase translated into "for ever and ever" is "aionios tou aionios" (I believe that's the exact spelling, I'm not looking at my papers, and my memory isn't always perfect ). This is properly translated "ages of the ages" or "eons of the eons" (see my other post where I give an example compared to "holies of holies") It is plural of Aion, therefore can mean more than one. Look at all the times Aion and Aionios are translated in the NT. If you stick to the actual meaning, even though it's different words, they still fit. However if you change the meaning to eternity, some verses just don't make sense. As far as the "490" times of forgiveness thing, that doesn't involve definition of a word, but having spiritual understanding that Jesus is speaking of always forgiving. I am speaking of improperly interpreting a word to support a hbelief system. Super Jew gave me 2 websites where they translate Aionios as eternal or everlasting. I can say, just as you and others do onhere, that they are simply changing the meaning to support their belief system. They already were set in the false teahing that hades is eternal so they automatically give it that meaning, even though it clearly means age or ages. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron

Anne says, It has nothing to do with me NOT wanting to put a time frame. The time frame hasn't ended and God doesn't give us an exact time frame for this age or the age when the lake of fire is mentioned. He does, however, tell us the age in between will last 1000 years. Anne says, No, that would be denying the entire salvation message. Have you not read how terrible it is to be in the hands of God when He isn't pleased with you? If you truly believe it will be just a little slap on the wrist or something of that sort, you have no understanding of God the Father and the punishment He can mete out. I have no desire whatsoever to go through that fire. Anyone who thinks this won't be unpleasant in the least will have a rude awakening. May God's grae, power and peace be with you, Ron

shiloh357 says, What parts have I rejected? Do you reject the scriptures I showed where God says all will bow before Christ and confess Him as Lord? Do you deny that God says in scripture He is the potter and we are the clay, how dare the clay complain to the potter about how he/she was made? Those are very clear thoughts presented in no uncertain terms in scripture. How do you fit those very clear scriptures into your theology? Why do you reject them? What's good for the goose is good for the gander shiloh. shiloh357 says, These verses use the words "aion" and "aionios" which mean age and pertaining to the ages. When one trys to twist these words to mean "eternity" is when you have to change the meaning of scripture. Eonian life is life for the age or ages. Does anything in scripture suggest we will live forever? Yes, scripture says when Christ returns, we will put on IMMORTALITY, which means death-less-ness, without death. The words "aion" and "aionios" however don't mean time without end. NO, to make aionios mean "eternity" you must change the meaning. I don't have a problem with any of these verses. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. (First, this is a parable. If you don't believe it is, why don't churches have people cutting off their feet and hands when they cause them to sin?) Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" (Aionios = ages) Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Aionios = ages) Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." (Aionios = ages; It isn't sin, it's damnation. The Greek word used here is never translated into sin. Now who's changing God's word to fit their theology?) Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. (Aionios = ages) Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." (Aionios = ages) 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (Aionios = ages) Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."(Aionios = ages) We have the ultimate foundation, not the foundation of sand which is man's logic, but God's scripture. I accept every single one of these verses and don't have to change anything. Aion means age. If you think it means eternity, then you deny the fact that Jesus will hand over His rule to God when all is under His rule. Why must YOU continually change and deny clear and simple facts of scripture? I'll let you pick any verse you want, it doesn't matter because I'm not the one changing the meanings of words to a totally opposite and different meaning, you are. May God's grace, power and peace be with you, Ron