apologia828

Point For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:16-18 By Point For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 ____________ _________ ______ ___ What~! For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4 You Think And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15-17 It Is Just Brother Saul's Musings We Read? Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7 ____________ _________ ______ ___ Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Be Blessed Beloved For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18 Love, Joe I'm really not sure what your point is because of strange way of writing. I find it to be more confusing than effective but maybe that's just me. Anyway, I wanted to actually respond to Chesterton once more. I just noticed that you referred to Romans 9:15,18 as saying that God can have mercy on who He will which is actually an alteration of the text.The text shows us that He mercies (a verb in the Greek) whom He will and hardens whom He will not just that He can. He actually does this. He chose to have mercy on Moses and not on Pharaoh. Or are you saying that those He hardened He also mercied? And please don't get me wrong. I don't believe God directly hardened Pharaoh's heart but since all he could do as a sinner was go against God all God had to do to "harden his heart" is withhold His mercy and grace and Pharaoh would on his own accord play the part God had raised him up for.

Sorry, I kinda messed up the last post. I don't know how to use the multi-quote.

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not. Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will. What else does Paul tell us? Romans 11 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom. 5:18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 1 Cor 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another. Paul also tells us God will have mercy on all men? So all men will be saved? It doesn't sound that way in the rest of the passage. Look at verse 22. Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV The text clearly is speaking about mercy in regards to eternal salvation. To deny that is to take the entire chapter out of context.

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not. Paul tells us that God will have mercy on whom he will. What else does Paul tell us? Romans 11 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom. 5:18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 1 Cor 15:21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Ok, so are you saying that the Scriptures I quoted are contradicting the Scriptures you quoted? Please observe the big difference I have been trying to point out between our two responses. I put forth much effort in providing the context and exegesis for the Scriptures that I quoted and all I get in return is a string of verses that appear to contradict the verses I quoted. If you disagree with my interpretation of the passages cited then you need to demonstrate why that interpretation is invalid because I can demonstrate how those verses are in complete harmony with one another.

Dearest Faithful One from Lakeside ... This verse is recognized by almost everyone to be an addition by some over-zealous monk or scribe, so I wouldn't use it for any kind of proof of anything. So your saying that the word of God is Fallible. Because by saying that one scripture/verse is corrupted you are saying that all of the word of God could be corrupted. You should re-think your position on Christ because to say that God is not powerful enough to keep his word intact, with integrety shows your lack of the belief that God is all powerful. And for you to teach that any part of the word of God is corrupted is a sin. Because the word of God is perfect with no corrupted additions and it doesn't matter what is "recognized by almost everyone" to be corrupted because whom ever says that is wrong. So Faithfulone you got it right. There was nothing wrong with useing that verse at all. God is One with three entities or distinct personalities A true Christian who trully loves God would never teach that any verse is corrupted in any way shape or form. I do agree that in this day and time that there are some versions of the bible that are corrupted but to teach that any verse is corrupted with no corresponding verse to show the difference or proof of that corruption is to say that God allowed that verse to be corrupted from the gitgo and that my friends is corrupted teaching. That is apostacy at it's best. It is all or none. I'm not trying to be rude but have you studied textual criticism? If you have you would know that there are many variations within the multitude of English translations. The original Greek is perfect. In regards to the Comme Johanneum (1 John 5:7) Dr. James White writes the following: "The Comma Johanneum is extremely important. Here we have a phrase that everyone will admit is manifestly orthodox. What it says is obviously true. Yet, we are in no way dependent upon the phrase for our knowledge of the Trinity or the unity of the three Persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity does not stand or fall upon the inclusion of the Comma. Beyond this, however, we have a phrase that is simply not a part of the ancient Greek manuscripts of John’s first epistle. The few manuscripts that contain the phrase are very recent, and half of these have the reading written in the margin. The phrase appears only in certain of the Latin versions." The King James Only Controversy, James White Basically, soGrateful was not saying it's corrupted. Just that it shouldn't actually be part of the text since it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts. I was always doubtful of the NIV but they were totally accurate in not including this in the text. We need to be honest with this text. Although it is totally true, the reality is it shouldn't be there. I hope this was helpful. God bless!

1. I too believe that God is merciful and just. If you believe it to be unfair for God to sovereignly choose those who would be saved then here is what the apostle Paul has already stated in response to your objection: Romans 9:14-16 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. HCSB That's Paul not me. Therefore if God decides to save one and not another it's up to Him. Again you may not like it but it's what Scripture teaches. 2. This is not a biblical argument but I'll go along with it. It won't be good news for those who love sin. Remember, the darkness hated the light. They don't want to be with God and especially don't want to submit to Him nor can they (Romans 8:7-8). However, regardless of what sinners think it is good news. What is the good news? That Christ would die for His church paying the penalty for their sins and resurrect from the dead conquering death. Unfortunately, Paul clearly states: Rom 9:22 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: ASV Notice I am attempting to harmonize Scripture by placing them together to understand the full idea. For example: Jn 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. ASV And... Act 13:48 48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. ASV Who is the whosoever (actually "those believing" in the Greek) that believe? Those who had been ordained to eternal life. 3. I realize this is complex but I've already provided a number of examples from Scripture that are very clear. Here are two. Who killed Jesus? Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the Lord’s pleasure will be accomplished. HCSB Act 4:27-28 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB God used Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel as secondary means to carry out His plan. They did evil but God did good. We also see something interesting in 1 Samuel 16:14-15 14 Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and an evil spirit sent from the Lord began to torment him, 15 so Saul’s servants said to him, “You see that an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. HCSB Who sent this evil Spirit that frustrated Saul so much that later on he attempts to kill David? The text clearly say it was sent from the Lord. As I've often told my students, satan is just a dog on a chain. This is what Scripture reveals to us regardless of whether we are comfortable with it or not.

The text states that everything is decided by God's will so your argument is invalid. You would need to prove how, in light of what it actually says, man has a free will separate from or not previously determined by the will of God. I'm looking at what the text plainly states. The question is not where does it say we don't have free will. Let me restate that we do have a will, just not an autonomous free will. Our will is in submission to God's sovereign will for as the text says, He works EVERYTHING according to HIS will. Why the Son was tempted is best explained in Hebrews. Christ humbled Himself and was tempted just like us as a high priest who can relate to our sufferings. However, this issue is actually not a mystery because of God's sovereign will but because of the divinity of Christ. We know from Scripture that He was tempted but being God incarnate are we to say that Jesus could have actually sinned? God forbid! God hates sin and would never fall into it no matter how strong the temptation therefore this point is also invalid. I'm not exactly sure what your second point is. It seems your asking what the point in this debate is in relation to being a good Christian. Well, I'll just say that as a believer in the doctrines of grace our as most often referred to, Calvinism, understanding these concepts have blown up my view of God in a good way. Beginning with the act of salvation God has created and ordained such an amazing and perfect plan that often times I just sit back in awe. This understanding allows glory to be given to God in all things (Soli Deo Gloria). It also gives the believer an incredible security and comfort knowing that no matter how bad things may seem our God is in complete control. However, the most important thing is as always love. To love God and our neighbors. When I look at the way God loved me it makes me want to follows and love Him more!

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture. In other words, you can't answer this simple question. Lol. Wow! I had attempted to give you a more in-depth answer than just a yes our no question but since you're just looking for the easy answer. No, God does not want anyone to sin against Him HOWEVER, the fall was predetermined by God according to His will of decree so that He could later demonstrate His love by sending His Son to die. For example, a parent (a loving parent) does not desire to see their child screaming in pain during a medical operation but they are able to see the beneficial outcome once it's all over. This is what I have been demonstrating through Scripture therefore it's up to you to decide whether you will believe in what the Scriptures say or your own personal philosophy. Eph 1:11 11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB I will continue to quote this verse until someone demonstrates how events like the fall are not to be included in the word everything.

It Was Satan's Will That Adam Die Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. John 8:44 And It Is God's Will The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all kI should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 That Whosoever Will, Will Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 _____________ _________ ______ ___ Won't You Believe Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 And Be Blessed Beloved Love, Joe Citing a collection of prooftexts doesn't actually prove your point. I've given extensive reasoning to demonstrate that God uses secondary means such as satan to accomplish His plans and purposes. I agree with every Scripture you quoted for I believe all Scripture to be God-breathed. Therefore, I think it's only fair that someone interacts with my comments and attempts to demonstrate why they believe I am wrongly interpreting these particular passages. If this is not able to be performed then my interpretation still remains accurate. Please brothers, think upon these issues and actually read the arguments presented.

Ok, please read over my last couple of posts once more and Ephesians 1:11b since this was the primary text I used. My answer is there. Let me know if you still have trouble understanding. I'm not giving a yes or no answer because I think it's of the utmost importance here to understand this within the context of all of Scripture.

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin? But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread. Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son! As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it). 4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose — even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22. 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known. I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

Since you are basically presenting the same question here as you are in the Calvinism/Arminianism thread I'm going to answer the question here. The question you posed was, did God want Adam and Eve to sin? But before I even get into that I would like to point out again the complete lack of interaction with the multitude of texts plus interpretation that I have provided. It demonstrates the fact that one side is providing a biblical response and the other a philosophical one. None of my objections have actually been responded to, neither here or in the Calvinism thread. Although I believe Ephesians 1:11 answers this question in a general sense, it doesn't give us the full story. The big question is this, was the plan of God to redeem mankind put into action based upon whether Adam and Eve would fall or not? Therefore, had they not sinned God wouldn't have sent His Son to die on the cross as the greatest display of God's love and mercy towards mankind. Does God desire man to sin? No, but has He ordained it as part of His plan, yes. We can't deny this when looking at some of the Scriptures I've already cited such as the case with Joseph and his brothers, the case in which God orders an evil spirit to torment Saul, or in the case of the murder of His One and Only Son! As further evidence of this look at what Proverbs 16:4 says (shocked me quite a bit the first time I saw it). 4 The Lord has prepared everything for His purpose — even the wicked for the day of disaster. HCSB This verse couldn't be more to the point. What has the Lord prepared for His purpose? EVERYTHING. Even the wicked He had created with a specific intention. This passage fits perfectly with what Paul says many years later in Romans 9:21-22. 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB If Adam and Eve did not fall we have a world free from contamination of sin and therefore no objects of wrath for God to demonstrate His wrath upon and make His power known. I realize these are not easy answers. How can we understand the responsibility of man in relation to the sovereignty of God? I can't really answer that, but do we see both in Scripture? Yes. I am commanded to be holy and although I am a sinner and cannot attain holiness without the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit, I will do everything I can to follow God's commands. Although God puts in me the will and the doing (all Him), I have to guard my salvation with fear and trembling. That's why I continue to say we serve an amazing and impressive God, a God who does all things according to His purpose!

I'm going to answer that last question on Adam and Eve in the Isaac (should be Jacob) vs. Esau thread since it is basically the same question. However, I'll repost it here anyways.

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not? Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will? Wow! Is He too weak to give man free will? Is that really an argument? The Bible teaches that man has a will however that will is always subject to God's. The God of the Bible is an all powerful God who, as it says in Ephesians 1:11, "worketh all things after the counsel of his will". You'll notice however that nowhere in Scripture does it say that man has a free will which can override God's will. A God who is not able to save because the man says no. Besides, if you saw someone that was planning to jump off a bridge committing suicide would you just say "oh well, I'd love to save him but I can't override his free will to kill himself"?? I asked the question because you brought up God's sovereignty, as if creating mankind with free will would impact God's sovereignty in some way. So you do think a sovereign God could create mankind with free will. Good! I didn't say that at all. If God gives man a free will apart from His will then He is no longer sovereign, is He? He would then be only partially sovereign but not completely sovereign as the Bible teaches He is. Again, look at Ephesians 1:11. 11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB So if God works out everything according to His will then what has man worked out according to his will? Paul says God has done everything. What He is explaining to us is that although we have physically, actually done things it was all prepared or predetermined by God's will.Or do you believe God is not free to exercise total sovereignty over man? Again, I believe man has a will just not one that is free. Remember, the Bible labels us as slaves to sin! We must be freed from our sins just as Israel was freed from captivity to Pharaoh.

I don't see this as being a valid point. Why does the fact that God chose Jacob and not Isaac according to His own election attribute randomness to God? I believe God does all things according to His will as clearly stated in Ephesians 1:11. From your standpoint you can't agree with Ephesians 1:11 because according to your viewpoint man has a "freewill" completely independent from the will of God. I'm not trying to criticize, brother. I'm simply calling for consistency. You brought up the example of Cain and Abel. Great example. Now, lets look at it through the lens of all the Scripture teaches us. Notice, I never said that man does not have a will. He does, but not a freewill. Cain due to the fall was a slave to sin and as it teaches us in Romans, sinners are incapable of pleasing God and must obey sin in it's lusts. Apart from the grace of God all Cain could do was sin. Look at what Roman 8:6-9 says about the sinner: Rom 8:6-9 6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ASV Here we see the difference between the sinner and the child of God although we were all born as sinners and continue to be sinners there is still a major difference. The sinner is an enemy of God, is not subject to the law of God, and cannot please God. What's the difference with the believer? One thing. The Spirit of God dwells in them! Grace is the difference and grace my brothers and sisters is 100% undeserved. It has nothing to do with Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, or you and your unbelieving neighbor. The difference is the grace of God so that not one of us could boast. God did it all, therefore Gods gets all the glory and His Word calls us to give it to Him. None of us sought God, none of us was good but God who is good had mercy on us! What a God He is! I praise Him even more for His divine election knowing how wretched I am. Just because He has chosen us before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and we do not comprehend the reason for His choosing does not make God random. First of all, the original Greek does not say "whosoever" but "that those believing shall not perish". Check it out for yourself but regardless I completely agree with this Scripture. However, those that are the believing were elected to belief through the preaching of the Word. I'm sure you would agree that we should look at all Scriptures that discuss salvation to get a better understanding so let's look at John 3:16 along with two other passages. Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. HCSB So yes, I completely agree, whoever believes will receive eternal life but that eternal life was appointed unto them before the foundation of the world. It's right there in the text. The Greek for appointed is τεταγμενοι which means to arrange in an orderly manner, assign, dispose. Another passage to analyze is John 10:25-28. Jn 10:25-28 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. ASV Does Jesus say you aren't my sheep because you do not believe in me? No, that would be an incorrect reading of the text. He says you don't believe because you are not my sheep. You are not part of my flock! If he had chosen our appointed them then they would believe and would be part of His sheep. As it says in verse 28, "I give them eternal life". If we don't interpret these passages this way then the words elected, appointed, predestined, chosen, foreordained, predetermined mean absolutely nothing and should be removed. Ok, let me just say I am not a hyper-calvinist. I just want to make that clear. I believe God has created and planned all things with one perfect goal in mind. To bring glory to His name! Redemption was a perfect plan for God to demonstrate His awesome love. It is the means He has decided to use to bring His people. We pray in general because 1)it's a command, 2)it's a time of communion our fellowship with the Lord and 3) we pray for things like deliverance from evil because it's a part of God's mean to provide us with that. He will obviously only give us what is of His will but we are told to ask. Lastly, what is the purpose of judgement? I'm not saying that the evil committed by Pharaoh was not actually committed by Pharaoh. He still did it out of the evil desires of his heart and therefore still needs to be punished for that sin eventhough the Lord was in control of the entire event. We see this in other cases for example, when God moves the heart of the Assyrian king to attack Israel in order to punish them, even calling Assyria an axe or razor in the hand of the Lord (Isaiah 7:20). Or when God moved David to take a census, allowing satan to actually tempt David into doing so (2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1) God tempts none however He does uses secondary means to accomplish His will as can also be seen with Job. Had Job's situation happened to us we might have attributed the circumstances entirely to satan's doings however, Job declares God's total sovereignty saying "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away". He is an awesome and powerful God brothers and sisters, so let's give Him the glory and worship that He deserves!

I'm sorry, I said I was done but I can see there is still some things that must be clarified. I think it should be noted the exegetical work I have gone through examining the above passages in length and depth only to find a couple sentences with no Biblical support in response. If you want to say God does not have these these two wills then what you have to do is attempt to refute my example. Simply stating he does not have two wills is not an argument. Here are two questions that need to be answered: 1. Has God commanded us not to murder or kill? 2. Was what happened on the cross the will of God? God forbid murder, not killing. God permits men to violate his commandments because he has given men free will. God turns the sins of man to his will and to his greater purpose. Do you think God is confused? Do you think God is too weak to carry out his will? Your belief that God has two wills makes no sense. I guess it is your attempt to rectify the doctrine of Calvinism with God's desire that all me be saved. I don't think you have succeeded. God loves us and he has given us free will. He wants us to obey him, but he will not force our obedience. My friend, it seems that you really have not read some of my previous posts. Regardless, whether you say murder or kill, they murdered Jesus. You did not answer my two questions so I will answer them for you. Jesus was horrendously murdered by Pontius Pilate, the Jews, and the Roman soldiers. However, who foreordained the whole event to come to pass? Acts 4 as we have already seen says God. Look at another situation. Is it sin for a group of people to overpower someone and sell them as a slave? well, that's what Joseph's brothers did just that. Here's what Wayne Grudem said on this topic (since I'm sure everyone's tired of hearing me, lol). "Another instance is found in Genesis 50:20. Joseph says to his brothers, "As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Here God's revealed will to Joseph's brothers was that they should love him and not steal from him or sell him into slavery or make plans to murder him. But God's secret will was that in the disobedience of Joseph's brothers a greater good would be done when Joseph, having been sold into slavery into Egypt, gained authority over the land and was able to save his family." Systematic Theology p.215 An important grammatical observation to make in this text is that a Hebrew parallelism is used when it says "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good". It is not saying that the evil you did God then turned into good. That would be a bad translation of what the text actually says in the original language. We have to understand that Joseph's brothers committed this sin out of the evil desires of their hearts yet God planned the situation according to His purposes. He allowed them to do what they did because obviously, had He desired, He could have prevented it. So, yes they did it but so did God. Lol. It's similar to the situation of the example I already used of when David took the census, which by the way, was not responded to whatsoever. Here's another interesting example of these different wills that I'll let Jonathon Edwards explain. We and they know it was God’s secret will, that Abraham should not sacrifice his son Isaac; but yet his command was, that he should do it. We know that God willed, that Pharaoh’s heart should be hardened; and yet that the hardness of his heart was sin. We know that God willed the Egyptians should hate God’s people: Psal. cv. 25. “He turned their heart to hate his people, and deal subtlety with his servants.” We know that it was God’s will, that Absalom should lie with David’s wives; 2 Sam. xii. 11. “Thus saith the Lord, I will raise up this evil against thee, out of thine own house; and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour; and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. For thou didst it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.” We know that God willed that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel. The same may be said of the plunder of the Babylonians; and other instances 527might be given. The Scripture plainly tells us, that God wills to harden some men, Rom. ix. 18. That he willed that Christ should be killed by men, &c. (Excerpt taken from Works, vol. 2, ch. 3) Now as to the second portion of your argument I really don't see how it is an argument. Do I think God is confused or too weak to carry out His will? Maybe after reading the above you can see why these two arguments are completely invalid. I think the perfect example is Abraham being ordered to murder Isaac. God according to His secret will did not intend to have Abraham go through with it. God is a God who knows what He desires the results to be and has ordained things as they are to get those results. No confusion or weakness there. We should actually open up a brand new thread for this topic.This thread is actually a bit too broad of a topic. Hope this has helped some to better understand the incredible will of our incredible God!

I'm sorry, I said I was done but I can see there is still some things that must be clarified. I think it should be noted the exegetical work I have gone through examining the above passages in length and depth only to find a couple sentences with no Biblical support in response. If you want to say God does not have these these two wills then what you have to do is attempt to refute my example. Simply stating he does not have two wills is not an argument. Here are two questions that need to be answered: 1. Has God commanded us not to murder or kill? 2. Was what happened on the cross the will of God? Here are two Scriptures very clear on this issue: Act 4:27-28 27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, 28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. ASV Who is the subject of the verb "to do" in this sentence? Both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel. Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. ASV Who was pleased to bruise Him? And who put Him to grief? I know it's not the easiest concept to grasp but neither is the Trinity however, it's very evident in the Scriptures. This is not a milk teaching for babes. It's part of that meat that Paul talks about. Therefore, my friend, if you disagree you'll have to point out the error our misunderstanding in my example used. If you want I can provide many more of this same nature but I don't believe I should until there is some interaction with what I have already posted. Another question is, where in the Bible does it say that grace has appeared to all men or that it was given to men. Who was found with grace pre-flood. Only Noah. The rest of the world's intentions of their hearts were of continual evil. (Ge 6:5) No grace there. The last passage I want to present is John 10:24-26. 24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. ASV Notice that Jesus doesn't say you are not my sheep because you didn't believe. No, He says you don't believe because you are not my sheep. This is exactly how it is written in the Greek. In conclusion, if you disagree I think it's only fair that you interact with the examples and Scripture I have used. If you continue responding the same way I don't see why this conversation should continue any further.

I think things are pretty clear so I'll leave you all alone. Lol. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Anyway, for anyone who is interested I'm leaving the link to the best exegesis I've heard on Romans 9 by Dr. James White. I beg those who are earnestly seeking truth to listen to it. God bless you all! http://mp3.aomin.org/JRW/Romans9.mp3

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not? Do you believe God is too weak to give mankind free will? Wow! Is He too weak to give man free will? Is that really an argument? The Bible teaches that man has a will however that will is always subject to God's. The God of the Bible is an all powerful God who, as it says in Ephesians 1:11, "worketh all things after the counsel of his will". You'll notice however that nowhere in Scripture does it say that man has a free will which can override God's will. A God who is not able to save because the man says no. Besides, if you saw someone that was planning to jump off a bridge committing suicide would you just say "oh well, I'd love to save him but I can't override his free will to kill himself"??

Guys, you are not reading the text. It had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob but was according to the election of God. There is no idea here of God looking down the corridor of time and seeing what they would do. That's an example of eisigesis not biblical exegesis. The text says God elects.Gods forms the vessel one to honor another to dishonor. Unless we accept this to be true we cannot say that God is 100% sovereign. So what's it gonna be? Is He a completely sovereign God our not?

I made my best attempt to respond to all of the Scripture references so you'll have to point out to exactly what you think I ignored. I agree with all the Scripture quoted. Yes, God does desire that the wicked will come to repentance however He also must grant that repentance. Acts 5:30,31 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 11:17 "If God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" And when they heard this, they quieted down, and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life." 2 Tim. 2:24-26 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. So, why doesn't God grant all the evil men repentance? Because, as observed within Scripture God has two separate wills. One is often called the decreed or secret will and the other is His revealed or perceived will. For example, in God's revealed will He tells us not to murder, yet when we look at the worst murder ever committed, the murder of God's one and only son, the Bible says in Acts 4:27-28 that: 27 “For, in fact, in this city both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, assembled together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place. HCSB It was the worst sin ever committed but God predestined it in order to provide salvation for all those who believe in Him. Therefore, according to His revealed will God wills that the wicked repent and yet there are certain people that according to His will of decree will not be granted repentance but are vessels of dishonor upon which He is pleased to display His power and wrath such as in the case of the evil sons of Eli. Please let me know if there's anything that you did not understand.

The bible doesn't tell us whether Esau was condemned or not. We only know that his lot in life was to lost his inheritance. Esau lost his inheritance by his own choice. You don't seem to be familiar with the story. Brothers, we need to look at the text of Romans 9. Paul is so clear on this matter. He says: Rom 9:8 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. HCSB This gives us the context. He's discussing what makes God's children God's children. That is salvation. Next we read: Rom 9:10-13 10 And not only that, but also Rebekah received a promise when she became pregnant by one man, our ancestor Isaac. 11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand — 12 not from works but from the One who calls — she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau. HCSB What is this idea of God loving Jacob and hating Esau based upon? It's right there in the text. That God's purpose according to election might stand. Jacob was one of the elect and Esau was not! To read this any other way is simply dishonest. Stick to the text! The passage says nothing about Esau's eternal destiny. Paul is referring to his lot in life. Really? Where does it say that in the text. Verse 8 shows us what Paul is talking about and it says: Rom 9:8 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. HCSB I don't think you're understanding the context here. Paul is being confronted with the question about what happened to Israel. Jews had this false idea that just because one was of Israel then one was automatically a child of God therefore saved and so Paul begins to demonstrate using the example of Jacob and Esau that being one of God's children is actually determined by God's divine election. If you think that this is unfair then Paul is speaking to you in verses 14-15. 14 What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 15 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. HCSB Here's a bit more context to take a look at later on in Paul's argument. Rom 9:27 27 But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; HCSB It's pretty clear Paul is discussing salvation and not just someone's lot in life.

The bible doesn't tell us whether Esau was condemned or not. We only know that his lot in life was to lost his inheritance. Esau lost his inheritance by his own choice. You don't seem to be familiar with the story. Brothers, we need to look at the text of Romans 9. Paul is so clear on this matter. He says: Rom 9:8 8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. HCSB This gives us the context. He's discussing what makes God's children God's children. That is salvation. Next we read: Rom 9:10-13 10 And not only that, but also Rebekah received a promise when she became pregnant by one man, our ancestor Isaac. 11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand — 12 not from works but from the One who calls — she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau. HCSB What is this idea of God loving Jacob and hating Esau based upon? It's right there in the text. That God's purpose according to election might stand. Jacob was one of the elect and Esau was not! To read this any other way is simply dishonest. Stick to the text!

I need to apologize for my last post. I wrote it in a rush therefore it was not as complete a response as I would like to have given. Allow me to explain myself better. In regards to the situation with the Pharaoh, the Scripture as a whole teaches us that although Pharaoh committed that evil out of the sinful desires of his heart God purposed and planned the whole event. If you disagree then the question Paul asks still stands. Rom 9:19-21 19 You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” He asks this question anticipating the objection "but if God used Pharaoh in this way then how can he be blamed for who can resist His will?" You see, if the previous Scripture is correctly interpreted then the question Paul poses is correctly understood. How can Gods blame or accuse Pharaoh for what he did on judgement day. Well, lets look at the rest of Paul's response. 20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? HCSB There is no question here regarding the context. God created or formed (the words are synonyms) Pharaoh for a specific purpose. You may not like it but there is only one correct interpretation and it is not obscure by any means. The whole point being that God has the right to do with man as He wills. He is the sovereign king of the universe! I believe God is absolutely allowed the right to make one man a vessel of honor and the other of dishonor. As it is stated in verse 15 "I will have mercy on whom I will mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." That's why Paul raises the question he does in verse 19. Now, in regards to 2 Peter 3:9 I am in no way twisting the Scripture. I am simply viewing it through the lens of the entirety of Scripture and therefore not assuming that all refers to every single human being that has ever lived. You make that assumption on top of Scripture. Look at this passage: Mark 1:5 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were flocking to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. HCSB Are you telling me that every single person in Jerusalem went out to the countryside and got baptized as they confessed their sins? Now take a look at Romans 9:22 22 And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? HCSB It appears that God also has patience in waiting to display His wrath and power on the objects of wrath ready for destruction. Other versions say fitted or prepared for destruction. The greek word used is κατάρτιζο which means to fit, prepare, mend, etc. Now look at it compared to 2 Peter 3:9. 9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. HCSB If the Lord had prepared certain vessels to dishonor and fitted them to destruction then He obviously is not waiting for them to repent. That Would be completely illogical. Therefore, all as previously demonstrated does not always mean every single person in the Cosmos. Now, you also posted this: Romans 2:6 "who will render to each one according to his deeds" and underlined "according to his deeds" Are you the stating that salvation comes by deeds/works? If so we need to start another thread. I believe everything that verse says. Those who persevere will enter heaven, but the question is how do they persevere? Lets look at Scripture. Eph 2:8-10 8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift — 9 not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared ahead of time so that we should walk in them. HCSB Tit 3:5 5 He saved us — not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit. HCSB Which one of those last two things did we do. I know I didn't regenerate myself or renew myself by the Holy Spirit. This is talking about the new birth and Jesus clearly states in John 3 that unless you are reborn of the Spirit you will not be saved. I believe what Romans 2:6 is saying is that God will bring righteousness punishment upon evildoers. I agree. You also underlined verse 11 which say that God shows no partiality but in what question does He show no partiality. Look at the previous verse. 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Paul is saying that salvation is no longer solely given to the Jews but has now been granted unto the Gentiles. God doesn't care whether you're Jewish, Chinese, Indian, or American. Nothing I have stated contradicts that. In fact Romans 9:11-13 says: 11 For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand — 12 not from works but from the One who calls — she was told: The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau. HCSB This contradicts your interpretation of Romans 2:6. 2 Peter 1:3 says 3 His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. HCSB Nowhere does it say we have been given all knowledge. Out says God has supplied us with all we need according to life and godliness but even if it said he gave us all knowledge it couldn't be referring to knowledge all things as we know it. I don't know everything I need to know about godliness. By the Holy Spirit I can receive and continue growing in all of that knowledge but if you knew all of it you would have to be God Himself. Moving along, I have no problem with James 1:13. God does not tempt anyone however He has used Satan and evil men to carry out His will on multiple occasions. Look at the sin David committed when taking a census of Israel. Here are thee two texts describing the exact same event however you will notice one considerable difference. 2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." 1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. Lets take a look at another example where God actually sends a evil spirit to Saul moving him to attempt to kill David. 1Samuel 19:9-10 9 Now an evil spirit sent from the Lord came on Saul as he was sitting in his palace holding a spear. David was playing the lyre, 10 and Saul tried to pin David to the wall with the spear. As the spear struck the wall, David eluded Saul, ran away, and escaped that night. HCSB What we need to understand is that God uses many different types of means to fulfill His purposes. I could continue but I think these two examples are clear enough. As I stated in the beginning, I do not believe that God forced Pharaoh to do what He did. Pharaoh did what he did because he was a sinner and had no other option but to sin. How can I know this? Well, Roman 8:7,8 says 7 For the mind- set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. HCSB As sinners we are slaves to sin. Therefore, all Pharaoh could do was give in to sin. The only way we can possibly do good is by the grace of God. Jesus told us in John 15 that without Him we can do nothing. Finally, the unfortunate thing about your analogy you provided is that Paul shows us that it is actually the sun that makes the clay to be that hard clay and the butter to be butter. As previously quoted he says: Romans 9:21Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? Brother in Christ, please look at these passages, God is the potter. He molds the clay. He has true sovereignty to do as he pleases. Ephesians 1:11 states "We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB Please take the time to deeply examine these Scriptures. I believe you can see that I have. Well, I think I've covered everything but I'll be eagerly awaiting your response. Thank you

Here's an important question for you. Did God create Pharaoh to do what he did? Was it God's purpose or not to use Pharaoh to demonstrate His perfect wrath? If not then why does Paul ask the question, You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” Romans 9:19 HCSB Just before this he clearly states: Rom 9:16-18 16 So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. HCSB What is it that paul says depends upon God? What is it that the context is referring to? The context simply put is whether you are one of God's children or not. Whether He loves you as He did Jacob or will hate you as He did Esau. Romans 9 is so clear yet so many just choose to ignore it. Now as far as 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. HCSB Again context is key. Who is Peter addressing in this letter? He says "is patient with you". We can't automatically task the all in this passage to mean everyone in the world. He's particularly patient with His sheep, the church. The Father brings His elect to repentance and belief in the truth. Finally, in dealing with your last point, I don't see how 1 Peter 1:3 says what you are claiming. 1Pe 1:3 3 Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. According to His great mercy, He has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. HCSB Besides, would the Lord then have to reveal to us the names of all those who will be saved. No where in Scripture does it state that God has to reveal anything to us sinners about His divine will. Almost forgot another issue. It's absolutely true that God tempts no one. Pharaoh out of the evil nature of His heart committed those sins but the point still remains that God formed Him to be a vessel of dishonor to display His wrath upon. To, summarize God is sovereign, man is not.