Eccl12v13

Are you saying that you believe that even before we are born that Jesus already knows whether we will be in His kingdom or not, thus He knows who will NOT be in His kingdom? .

I don't think you understand the nature of this judgment. This is not judgment in the sense that God is weighing them in the balance to see if they are good enough to go to heaven. They are coming before the throne to be sentenced and cast into the lake of fire. They chose continued separation from God and now they are standing at the throne to receive the final sentence and to go to their eternal destruction. If a person is standing at THIS throne, there is no hope; they are not saved. There is not ONE person who is a Christian that will appear at THIS throne of judgment. If what you claim is true then WHY are they being judged? That does not make any sense! God's word does nOT say that ALL that are judged here WILL go into the lake of fire! Where does it say this in God's word? Why even have a judgement if that were the case! Even when Jesus returns to gather HIs saints He would have already determined if we are worthy or not. Do you not think He will use some sore of guide to determine this\? ANd do you think the guide that He uses will be DIFFERENT from what He uses to judge these? NO! Where does it say that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ? God's word does NOT say what is being claimed here! This is why I continue to bring this up. You all are saying things that is NOT supported by scriptures! .

WHAT was prepared from the foundations of the world? God's kingdom! It does not say that there were people that was prepared and ready to go into the kingdom. It says that the KINGDOM was ready at the beginning! .

But God's word tells us if we KEEP His commandments we will have the right to the tree of life. Are you saying that God is lying when He tell us the following? Rev.22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. If we are in HIs city and NOT in hell is that not salvation? What else is there to be saved from? Do we ignore what He said above? Rev.22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. . .

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place? Rev.20 [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . That is not a proof text for what you are advocating, as has already been pointed out. No one at the White Throne Judgment has accepted Christ as their Savior and that is what they are being judged on, not the merits or lack of merits of their works. So using Revelation 20 over and over does not bolster your position, it only weakens it. I ask again, since you did not answer the question: Exactly what "action" has to be taken, in your theology, to earn salvation? God's word does not say what you claim. It does NOT say that these being judged for NOT accepting Christ as their savior. It says they are being judged based upon their WORKS...not faith or acceptance of Jesus Christ! How do you get, what you claim from this; "...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." and, "...and they were judged every man according to their works." Prove from scriptures that these are being judged based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ? God's word does NOT say that ALL of these judged will go to the lake of fire. If their fate was already sealed...meaning they did NOT accept Jesus as their savior, then why will there even be a judgement. They are being judged to determine where they will dwell; in God's kingdom or not in God's kingdom! As God's word tells us, to answer your question; Rev.22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. God, not me, tells us what is needed to get into HIS kingdom. And He tells us that keeping His commandments is what is needed? Do you agree? .

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place? Rev.20 [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. . That is not a proof text for what you are advocating, as has already been pointed out. No one at the White Throne Judgment has accepted Christ as their Savior and that is what they are being judged on, not the merits or lack of merits of their works. So using Revelation 20 over and over does not bolster your position, it only weakens it. I ask again, since you did not answer the question: Exactly what "action" has to be taken, in your theology, to earn salvation?

Why do you guys keep avoiding answering the following....? What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place? Rev.20 [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. God's word tells us these will be judged by their WORKS! And based upon what they did or did not do, which boils down to keeping God's laws, will determine where they will end up! For those that choose to keep God's laws they will be SAVED...they will have SALVATION from God's lake of fire. For those that did NOT keep God's laws they will NOT have SALVATIOON from God's lake of fire. Let's read it..... Rev.22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. God tells us it will be those that DO His commandments that will have the right to the tree of life. And those that break God's laws...what will be there fate? Let's read.... [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Keeping the commandments of God are the works required to be SAVED from His lake of fire! What else do we need to be SAVED from? Here we have the LAST book is the bible AND the LAST chapter in the last book of God telling us what is needed for salvation.....and YET there are those that still try to tell people if they cannot keep ALL of God's laws they should not even try to keep any because if they break one they break them all! There are STILL people telling others that doing your best to keep God's laws will NOT give you salvation! Tell that to the, "...sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."! I bet THER wished they had kept God's laws! . . .

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place? Rev.20 [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. .

What does God's word tell us the following will be judged on? What will it be that determines their final dwelling place? Rev.20 [11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now let's read who will not be in God's kingdom based on what they DID; Rev.22 [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. So those that KEPT God's commandments will be allowed into HIs kingdom. Those that did NOT keep them will NOT be allowed entrance. Please note it was not just the one law of 'loving your neighbor' that will keep some outside of the kingdom. If you keep God's commandments you will enter...if you do not....you will not! It takes MORE than faith! Some action MUST be taken! . .

Are you saying...... "........THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." is NOT talking about being made perfect? How is it NOT? You also said that the promise that Paul speaks of that the saints of old did not see was the coming of the Lord. But Paul said that the promise that was promised to them would NOT happen WITHOUT HIM! But Paul DID see the coming of the Lord. So how could that be the promise that he is speaking about? According to God's word when will the saints of old along with Paul become spirit? At the LAST trump! . .

But Paul DID see the promise of the coming of Christ. And he said the SAME promise that was promised to the saints of the OT was the SAME promise that would not be given without him. So the promise of them seeing the coming of the Lord could NOT be the promise that Paul speaks of. Heb.11 [13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. And again....... [39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. The promise above speaks of becoming perfect.....NOT seeing the coming of Jesus Christ. And when will perfection take place? 1 Cor.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This is eternal life......IMMORTALITY! .

But....Do you think the Lord will allow the 'harmless' practice of Halloween in His kingdom? Do you believe you will be able to dress up as saints, prophets or ANYTHING on Oct.31 during His 1000 year rule? .

Well who thinks that Yeshua has already come and resurrected the elect yet? Abraham was faith, he knew there was going to be a redeemer, God found him righteous and he will be raised, along with all the others who walked in faith in God and the promise of the Messiah, on the day He comes and His angels gather the elect. Eternal life only comes when He returns, changes those in the grave and those alive. And when the millennial reign is over and all is said and done, then comes the forever after. Amen! Here is quote from an OT saint stating the same belief; Job 14 [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. [13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. [15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. Job was well aware that there would come a set point in time when the Lord would call him out of the grave and he would be changed. And he knew that change did not happen the moment he died! .

WOW! Does anybody else believe this doctrine? And where is this supported in God's word? Just curious! .

Do you think the Lord will allow the 'harmless' practice of Halloween in His kingdom? Do you believe you will be able to dress up as saints, prophets or ANYTHING on Oct.31 during His 1000 year rule? .

The bottom line here is that some believe in OSAS and some do not! Some have agreed with me and most will not! Let's move on! Some God have given something to think about! .

You have already replied to these. How about the following; There is only ONE thing that can give man remission of his sins! There is only ONE thing that can remove the curse that was put upon ALL of mankind by Adam! There is only ONE thing that can justify man and ALLow him the chance at eternal life! And there is only ONE thing that can be considered GRACE, as in the grace that Jesus gave to all of mankind; and it was NOT salvation! Matt.26 [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Heb.9 [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. BLOOD is the ONLY thing that can remove the curse of the law! Now let's read how Jesus blood IS the grace that He gave..... Rom.3 [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; So man is JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it! Rom.5 [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. So man is SAVED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it! Eph.1 [7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; So man is REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation! It was His BLOOD...which was the grace He bestowed upon us! Col.1 [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: So man's SINS are forgiven by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation! Salvation did not redeem, justify, or forgave sin or removed the curse of sin! Only the blood of the lamb could do that! And now that Jesus has shed His blood for our justification and redemption.....do we continue to sin? .

Let’s read God’s promise to all that endures until the end; 1 John 2 [24] Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [25] And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. Paul tells us that Abraham and many more of God's saints will NOT receive God's promise of eternal life without him..... That means they did NOT receive eternal life when they died! Let’s read to confirm; Heb.11 [4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain.... [5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him...... [7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house..... [8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out,...... [20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. [23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. [32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Now did ANY of these saints receive God's promise upon their death? Please note Enoch, the one the scriptures says did NOT see death, is included in this list of saints that had a good report with God when they died. Moses and Abraham are also included in this list. Let's read if any received God‘s promise of eternal life when they died...... [13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. And again....... [39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Paul tells us that they will NOT be made perfect without US! So Paul is speaking about not only himself…but to those he is writing to….US! And when are we made perfect? 1 Cor.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Now just to confirm this let's read what Jesus had to say about eternal life and when it would be granted to believers..... John 5:24 [24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. So we know eternal life is theirs, salvation is theirs……BUT…..let's read WHEN eternal life will be theirs.... [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. So this goes hand in hand with what Paul tells us in Heb.11 and in 1 Cor.15; These saints of old all died with a good report, but have not yet received God’s promise of eternal life. Paul tells us this perfection will happen at the sounding of the last trump. It will be at this time that the dead will rise with God’s promise of eternal life. And we find Jesus confirms this above in John 5. So it seems that EVERYONE found worthy will be changed at the same time! “Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.” .

Where is everyone that said 'salvation' was grace? .

There is only ONE thing that can give man remission of his sins! There is only ONE thing that can remove the curse that was put upon ALL of mankind by Adam! There is only ONE thing that can justify man and ALLow him the chance at eternal life! And there is only ONE thing that can be considered GRACE, as in the grace that Jesus gave to all of mankind; and it was NOT salvation! Matt.26 [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Heb.9 [22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. BLOOD is the ONLY thing that can remove the curse of the law! Now let's read how Jesus blood IS the grace that He gave..... Rom.3 [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; So man is JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it! Rom.5 [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. So man is SAVED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it! Eph.1 [7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; So man is REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation! It was His BLOOD...which was the grace He bestowed upon us! Col.1 [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: So man's SINS are forgiven by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation! Salvation did not redeem, justify, or forgave sin or removed the curse of sin! Only the blood of the lamb could do that! And now that Jesus has shed His blood for our justification and redemption.....do we continue to sin? .

Does it make sense to say, "He gave us the 'salvation' to take the wages of our sin which was death."? No it does not! Because it was not 'salvation' that took away the wages of sin! Salvation means we are saved FROM something.....the second death....the lake of fire! .

Well...let's see if 'salvation' works! It was salvation that removed the curse of the law? Salvation is the END result. Those found worthy will be SAVED from going to the lake of fire...thus receiving eternal life with the Lord. It was salvation that removed man's sin? No.....how can something that we receive in the end remove sin NOW? It was salvation that took away the curse of Adam? No......God's word does not tell us it was salvation that removed the curse....God's tells us it was grace! Grace was something that was given! Salvation is something we will receive if and when we overcome! .

Again.....but what was the grace that He gave? God's word is VERY clear about what was needed to remove the curse of the law from man! Do you not know this? .

If this is true, if it was the penalty of the law that says we must die for our sins that was nailed to the cross.....how is it that when Jesus returens He is STILL going to punish sinners for breaking His laws? Because God's word tells us the following; Rom.6 [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now you are claiming that there are no more wages of sin. And if there are no more wages of sin then ALL will be granted into God's kingdom! But we know this will NOT be the case! So what was really nailed to His cross? Let's read.... Col.2 [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; God's word tells us it was 'ORDINANCES' that was against us....and was contrary to us....and was taken out of the way......and was NAILED TO HIS CROSS! So it was NOT the penalty of the law that was nailed to His cross as you claim! It was ORDINANCES that was nailed to HIs cross! Now the question is WHICH? Was it do not steal? Was it do not murder? Was it do not lie? Was it one, four, or ALL of God's laws that was nailed to His cross? Which laws were against us? Which laws was contrary to us? Do you have an answer? .

Only one person has even come close to answering the following question....and even then they went in such a round about way that the answer could be hard to see.... So again I ask..... What was the free gift? What was it that made it possible to remove the curse of the law? What is the ONLY thing that Jesus gave that made it possible for man to come from under his sins? Eph.2 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph.2:8 does not say that it was salvation that was the free gift....it states that GRACE was the gift! Now.......here's the big question...... What is the grace that Jesus gave that answers ALL of the above questions? You cannot plug in the word 'salvation'! That does not answer the questions! So...what was this grace that Jesus gave for all of mankind to have the right to eternal life? It's a simple one word answer that God clearly gives us in His word. .