unworthy2

I'd like to clarify what I meant here since some people seem to have gotten the wrong idea. (perhaps they haven't and are as ill against me either way, though I'd still like to clarify) when I say "nothing is required of us" I am referring to post the moment of salvation and not inferring that salvation is predicated thereupon. Salvation is not of works but is followed thereby. Saved not by works but TO works. Faith in Christ demonstrated by obedience. All of the verses I quoted (whether applied to individual or corporate - as yes I realize that my lumping together of some of those verses was not as neat and tidy as I would've put together had I put more time into) simply were showing that there is something expected of us as a result of salvation. We are expected to OBEY. What my quote above is saying is simply that any system which says that being a christian is a mere intellectual assent and nothing more is one I disagree with. Nothing about salvation is predicated or dependent upon my works, but if I am born again it means that I do not live the way that I did before I was saved.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:17-24 1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:1-11 also Matthew 25:31-45 - what's the difference between the groups? what they did and did not do. 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. -------------------------------- I'm sorry but any system that says that nothing is required of us is not one I agree with. Any system which allows itself to live any way which we please with no accountability is not one I agree with.

here's the original version (by Don Francisco). Personally I like it better.

I love this song; absolutely potent. You can download this and much more of his music from his website.

The only problem with what you say is this. If you do a word study, you will find that scripture uses the same word for eternal life that it uses for eternal torment. It would certainly make us feel better to think Hell is not forever, but unfortunately it is. Since the same word is used, this means the torment in Hell will last just as long as the joy and bliss if Heaven. I don't fault you for thinking that as I have heard lots of Christians whi believe that. However its not scriptural and besides, since God lets us choose where we go, its more than fair for it to be like that. How is it fair for billions to go to hell without a chance? Sure, we have a lifetime. But does 80 years equate to an eternity? That is a fair and honest question for which, I'm afraid, there is no satisfactory answer. Honestly, I don't think that we, as humans, will ever see all that God does as being "fair." I mean is it really "fair" that natural disasters destroy people's homes, businesses, and take their lives? Is it "fair" that children get diseases, starve to death, and are sold? however, you must remember two simple truths: 1. The God we believe in is a Just God. 2. The God we believe in is in control. Also, what we see as "fair" and "just" are not what are actually "fair" and "just" by God's standards.

Ro 5:15-17 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) NKJV Perhaps you struggle with the word free Paradigm is not salvation and works but the salvation and sanctifcation... You see if Jesus is within us, by the free gift of just asking Him to come into us, then His presence will be seen by that which we do! If we do not do the things He did then we may doubt, as others, the reality of the asking! Love, Steven so you are saying once we receive the free gift that God doesn't expect anything of us? After we are saved we live how we want? There are two extremes: I have to work to keep it I don't have to do anything to keep it I am somewhere in the middle. I understand that I cannot earn it and "keeping it" is not by my works, yet I also understand that the commands of God are for me and therefore there are things that are expected of me.

no. Mary was not sinless any more than you or I...

Eternal Security is true but it comes with conditions. We don't like conditions. We think it means you have to work for something and we realize that we cannot earn anything through our works. So instead we take away the "conditions" and try to make it so black and white that even we can't rebel, disobey, or walk away. However, sadly, that is simply not true. It is a gift in that we cannot earn it, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing required of us at all.

NASB

I spent some time discussing this point on another forum and this is a summary of my opinion on the matter. First of all, I don't believe in "absolute predestination" but I do believe in "absolute predetermination." This means that when God created, God determined. There isn't any way around this. It is as illogical to say that God could create a being with absolute free will in regards to Him as it would be to say that He could create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it. However, beyond that I believe in free will.

I hope you also realize that according to 5 point calvinism, man has NO free will. If I came up and shot someone, it was God's will, because my free will didn't exist. 5 points also means my repentance and obedience are pointless, because Heaven or Hell was chosen FOR ME before I was even born. I don't see scriptures that teach that, but if you do since you believe in Calvanism, please point out those scriptures to me. you don't understand calvinism.