jb_

Are you seriously putting that forth as a valid 'reason'? Yes - obviously. In what time frame do the 144,000 dwell? Answer - the Tribulation Period. Revelation 7 talks about two important companies of believers: the 144,000 and the multitude from the nations that get saved during the Tribulation Period. The Church which is the Body of Christ has already been Raptured Home to Glory. Why would the elder ask who the multitude were if they were the Church which is the Body of Christ? Verse 14 even tells you who they are - those Saved during the Tribulation Period. Revelation 7:4-14 NASB And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. The 144,000 Israelites And The Victorious Christians. Rev 7v1-17 Jesus reveals to us two things that will happen at the resurrection on the last day (Hence why Rev chapter 7 is placed between the 6th and 7th Seals), the great day of the wrath of the Lamb. The faithful Old Testament saints will be raised from the dead, as well as Christians. The seventh chapter of Revelation is dealing with two groups of people, one group from the Old Covenant of Law, the other group from the New Covenant of Grace, that come before God at the resurrection on the last day. Some Israelites never enjoyed the promise of an earthly kingdom while they were alive, and it caused them great sorrow, God promised them a kingdom in the Millennium, at the resurrection. Ezek 37v1-14. The sealing of these Israelites in Rev 7v1-8, cannot be protection against the trials of the great tribulation, for they are sealed after the great tribulation is ended. It is a seal of ownership and approval for a select company of Old Testament Israelites who have proved their right to rule in the Millennial kingdom. Rev 7v1-8 is the Old Testament counterpart of Rev 14v1-5, which speaks of the Christian overcomers who will rule with Christ. God seals the 144,000 of Rev 14v1-5, not to protect them, but to show that they have overcome and won the right to rule with Christ. Rev 3v12, 14v4, 17v14. To determine when the rapture of the Church takes place, we need to determine when the 1st Resurrection takes place. 1Cor 50-55 states: ‘Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"’ Paul tells us that the the Resurrection and Rapture of the Church takes place at the ‘last Trumpet’ (i.e the 7th Trumpet, Rev 11v15-19, Matt 24v29-31, 1Thess 4v15-17), this is when ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ (Isaiah 25v6-9) which is on the last day of this Age (the Age of Grace) at the beginning of the Millennium. Isaiah 25v6 is the OT reference to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19v1-9), which is cearly seen to be on the last day of this Age, when Christ not only comes to deliver His people, but also to destroy the wicked and set up the Millennium Kingdom. Another proof that the 2nd Coming of Christ and the Rapture of the Church occur after the Great Tribulation is shown in 2Thess 2v1-4 which states: ‘Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come UNLESS the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.’ Paul clearly states that the 2nd Coming of Christ and the Rapture of the Church occurs AFTER Antichrist is revealed and sits in the Temple in Jesusalem claiming that he is God and the great apostasy occurs (which takes place during the Great Tribulation, Matt 24v12) Matt 24v15-21,29-31, Mark 13v37. Another question that needs to be asked: if (as you believe) there is a secret pre-tribulation coming of Christ and rapture of the Church, what body of persons preaches (as the great commision to preach the Gospel to alll nations was given by Christ to the Christ) the Gospel during the Great Tribulation, for the world experiences the greatest revival of all time during that period of time? Matt 24v14, 28v16-20, Acts 2v16-21, Rev 7v9,10,14. So, the Rapture of the Church takes place AFTER the Great Tribulation and NOT before it, hence, why Rev 7v14 says that the Christians 'came out of' the Great Tribulation... Yahweh Shalom…

Are you seriously putting that forth as a valid 'reason'?

Really..? Then why then does it say in Rev 7v9,14 the following: 'After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' It is only a Christian who can wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb and make them white, also the Greek preposition used in Rev 7v14 for 'out of' is 'ek', the force of this prep. can be described in the following way; if a circle is drawn, the action of the verb starts from within it and heads out past the boundary of the circle away from it, thus signifying that Christians go through the Great Tribulation and come out of it by either death or by being raptured at the Lord's 2nd Coming immediately after those dark evil days (for to 'come out' of something, one first must be in it). If the Church was to miss the Great Tribulation, the Greek preposition used in Rev 7v14 would be 'apo' which means 'away from', the force of this prep. can be described as an action starting outside the perimeter of the circle and heading away from it, ie. 'away from'. In Rev 7v14 ‘great tribulation,’ should read, ‘the tribulation, the great one,’ Greek, ‘tes thlipseos tes megales.’ It is an emphatic phrase which calls attention to the adjective ‘great,’ rather than the noun ‘tribulation,’ this ‘great tribulation,’ is not the ‘much tribulation’ spoken of in Acts 14v22, which all Christians can expect, it is the terrible time of world-wide distress (of 3 1/2 years) which Jesus warned us about that would immediately preceds His 2nd Coming in Matt 24v15-21,29-31, Dan 12v1,7, Jer 30v7, Mark 13v14,19,24. Yahweh Shalom...