Peace Maker Tony

why do defenders of pot always compare it to other things in order to try justify it? ...

Pot is like pornography, people keep comparing it to other things.

I see what you did there!

Thank you for your input here on the discussion of whether or not Christians should smoke pot. I guess you missed it that I was making an analogy in response to a commonality in a lot of the posts of the pot defenders. My point was that as porn and pot-use are VICES, and neither is better than the other, so too, pot and cigs are vices, and neither one is better or justifiable over another. Whereas many people in this thread want to justify weed by using that "pot is better than cigarettes" (or booze, or whatever) mentality.

I have asked in another post for someone to tell me how recreational use of weed glorifies God, and have not received an answer, despite all the proponents of it on here. I will add, how does it not contradict 1 Peter 5:8, 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Ephesians 5:18 and the many other scriptures?

Lastly, if drunkards do not inherit the kingdom, how will recreational weed-users? Man may be double-minded, God isn't.

I have said once before that the discussion on "pharmakeia" needs to have it's own thread. I will continue to hide all responses to this topic and will close the thread if people do not adhere to this.

Yes, before this post I had already gotten your point about starting a new thread, and I haven't used the word since then, nor do I see the point in doing so again.When I first mentioned it I just didn't foresee how bringing up a biblical Hebrew word in a (Christian) thread about drugs could be a problem, nor how that word was somehow unrelated to the discussion.

We do have those who use it for medical reasons and they are not witches or sorcerers.

I invite you to point me to a post where I said or implied that medical use of weed is sorcery. This thread is not about medical use, it is about whether or not Christians should use marijuana. So rather than me or anyone else having to stop talking about "sorcery" in this thread, don't you think maybe it's the people who keep bringing up medical use in a thread that isn't about that, should be the ones to have to start a new thread?

Just for the record: "Gay Christian" is an oxymoron. There are no gay Christians. They may have "religion," but they do not have Christ.

Oh, I'm treading on thin water...but I'm going to have to disagree.

I think this particular sin is so abhorrent to most of us, that we really believe we are better than "those sinners" because we aren't tempted in that way, but we need to confess that all of us are STILL sinners saved by grace. Our sin just doesnt' look as ugly to us as their sin does.

There are certainly people who were gay and made a decision to follow Christ and yet still struggle with their old lifestyle....just as there are people who were ex-druggies or ex-alcoholics or ex-(fill in blank with any sinful behavior) that still struggle with their identity.

If they are justifying sin, (which is the entire purpose of this "bible") then there is no hope for them. But if an individual confesses sin to be sin, and still struggles to overcome over a time, who are we to say that they aren't genuinely as christian as the Pastor who has committed adultery and later repented? The wife who gossips? Or the envious? The glutton? No, their sin might be worse in our sight....but we aren't saved by "our" works anyway.

From heaven's lofty view on high, it seems that none of us look any taller than another....so let's not heap condemnation on "gay" christians so quickly. That only keeps them away from having fellowship with the very people they need most. Us, the Body.

Yes, yes, I know the homosexual will not inherit the Kingdom...just like the fornicators, the adulterers, and the thieves so many of us are apart from the empowering grace of God.

The examples in the bible show that God obviously deals more harshly with some sins than others. There were only a few sins in the O.T. that required the punishment of immediate death for the perpetrator, so I don't agree with your "we're all sinners, and a sin is a sin" mentality. I have heard that response a lot regarding the issue of homosexuality.

But to not make any differentiation between sins is to muddy the waters, IMO, which is what the homos are always trying to do. Our civil laws have life in jail for murderers, but not for petty theft, the bible's the same way when it comes to sin. I hope I've made my point on that, not meaning to overdo it.

The key point is the issue of repentance, which no true Christian would be without. So any homo that is continuing his lifestyle is unrepentant and not serving Jesus, only himself. When he identifies himself as a homosexual, he is identifying himself as a sinner, one that is unrepentant, and unashamed of his sin. He can call himself Christian, but he is merely defining himself - by necessity and convenience - by his own code of morality, not God's.

As an example, Ray Boltz, the well-known Christian composer who in the 1980's had a string of hit albums, has for a while now been "out" as a homosexual, and has joined a gay-friendly church and involved himself in gay activism groups. Here's a quote from him :

"Right now, I am part of a group called “Soul Force” that aims to help LGBT kids trump the fundamentally anti-gay policies at Christian-affiliated schools".

So, spiritually-speaking, unlike Saul becoming Paul, it looks like Boltz has turned from Paul into Saul!

Anyway, Boltz is my example of an unrepentant (homo) sinner, and shiloh357's comments aptly pertain to him. There are no gay Christians, and I am not judging him (the bible does that) when I say he is not a Christian, gay or otherwise. Boltz - and all homos like him - want to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, we are not helpless to overcome sins, nor slaves to them, unless we want to be. IE, we love our sins enough to keep doing them. I'm specifically thinking of Golden Eagles's example about Romans 1:18-23.

When we submit to God He makes all things new and His death on the cross set us free from the law of sin and death and the flesh no longer has dominion over us. So no one has the right to act like they can't change, by saying, as in the case of gays, "it's the way I am", or whatever.

even cats can learn a foreign language

A little bit testy, aren't you? Attack the messenger when you don't like the message. You know what, I don't care what weed was called before or after it became legal. I am debating whether or not Christians should use it, while you are just side-tracking and ignoring everything I say. You will believe what you want to believe, and you will keep on idolizing the weed. That's your right, but I believe you will answer to God for promoting drug use.

Christians and drugs. Wow, what a world!! What's next?

This is what I have noticed from people with your stance, time and again : you apparently cannot even remotely accept or agree that there just might be some bad things about weed. Nooooooo, it's the wonder drug! Why, it's even God-approved!! How dare I besmirch the idol that is marijuana! According to you, people that are against weed not only don't know what they're talking about, but they are weedaphobics. :24: What a ridiculous thing to say.

Not being testy at all. I am in no way attacking you but showing you that your knowledge on the subject is lacking. You continue to regurgitate the same ol' rhetoric that has been spoon fed to our society since the "war on drugs", or as it should be called, the governments get rich quick scheme.

But you say that you are debating if a Christian should use it if were to be legal correct? Well, then that's what you should have been debating. You seemed to be adding a bit more to that debate, so I called you on it. Now you if don't agree that a Christian should smoke, I understand, but stop repeating the tired government propaganda that has only lined their pockets.

I am glad that you are not attacking me, neither am I you. And that's fine if you feel the need to call me on something, I have not claimed to be an expert on this, nor do I feel I need to be to have a sound and proper opinion on it. About your opinion on my lack of knowledge on the subject, here's the thing : unlike you, I am not self-absorbed in this subject, it doesn't consume my life like it apparently does yours. So, contrary to what you obviously think, I am NOT "repeating the tired government propaganda". How can I repeat something I have not concerned myself with?

I don't own any books about drugs, or the politics thereof. I don't watch t.v., I don't even read the newspaper. I can't think of a time in the last 20 years where I had a thought about marijuana or any of the issues involved with it. It was not at all on my radar before this thread started. So anything I have said is simply my opinion, based on what I know the bible says about it, based on common sense and intelligence, and coming from personal experience. So to repeat, I am not just copy/pasting info from some government site, or anything like that. Now, regarding government propaganda, your statements aren't propaganda, correct?

One more thing I want to add, knowledge is not wisdom, so you may want to rethink your stance on my lack of knowledge.

Lastly, like walla299 said, I can't imagine why any Christian would be so engrossed in this subject.

Wait, I noticed one more comment you made that I also want to respond to. You asked me : "But you say that you are debating if a Christian should use it if were to be legal correct?". The answer to that is, no, incorrect. I don't know how many times in this thread I have stated that legality is NOT my concern.

Let me put as simply as I can, my stance on drugs.

I do not feel Christians should use drugs, period, and even less promote the use of them. That the government has made it legal in some states has no bearing on my position.

I believe any so-called benefits of using weed are far-outweighed by their deleterious affects. I believe the bible likens drug-use to sorcery. I believe drug-use is a form of rebellion, which is as witchcraft. I belief we, as Christians, are not to imitate the world, so even if 99% of the world was using weed and saying it is okay, we should all the more refuse to do so.

Almost all worldly religions use drugs in their worship, which shows there is a spiritual component to drug-using. Would all these false religions use drugs if they had the God of the bible in their hearts, or is the reason why they have to use drugs in their worship, because they DON'T have the God of the bible in their hearts and are vainly trying to reach Him through fleshly - the only option available to them - worship?

The bible says we are not to offer "strange fire" unto the Lord, as in the biblical examples of Nadab and Abihu. In their case, immediately after they had been dragged outside the camp, the Lord made this statement to Aaron, the father of these two men:

"Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you may not die --- it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations --- so as to make a distinction between the holy and the profane, and between the unclean and the clean" (Leviticus 10:9-10).

Why did God mention wine in the same discussion about improperly approaching the Lord to worship? Well, if you carefully read this account, paying attention to the context, the reason Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire to the Lord, was because they were intoxicated, which impaired their judgment and ability to properly present their offering to God. The point should be obvious, that when your mind is dulled and impaired through intoxication, you are in danger of losing the ability to worship or approach God properly, in His way, and on His terms.

So my next question is - to continue this stream of thought - do you think God would approve of you showing up at church on Sunday in a stoned condition? Why not, if weed is so good and God-approved? Will you answer that question, or just ignore it?

Will you hear the Holy Spirit speak to you when your mind is all doped up? Will you unwittingly offer strange fire to the Lord in such a state?

Lastly, we are also to abstain from all appearances of evil, and you cannot argue that a Christian smoking up and promoting weed doesn't look right to a non-believer. If they can discern that, why can't we? We do not want the world to think we're no different than them in the way we behave.

We are a living tabernacle of God, our lives a living sacrifice to Jesus. So what are we sacrificing to Him when we use drugs?

Anyway, my time is usually limited, and it takes me forever to type these posts, and as such I see no point in my going around and around, repeating myself for nothing. So I think I will leave it that.

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

This is a​ false dichotomy. There is no graduation from one drug or another. If so you would have included cigarettes. The reason why weed is called a "gateway" drug is because it is illegal. If tobacco were illegal then it would be called a gateway drug. Why? This is because the people that sell weed also sell other harder drugs, thus making it easier for a person to get access to them.

Cigarettes will never be a gateway to anything, because they don't get you stoned and impair you like marijuana does, and they don't affect you in the same ways that pot does. And people who smoke cigs don't do so for the same reasons pot-smokers do, and vice versa. And about graduation, in many cases there absolutely is when it comes to pot.

The reason many people progress from the softer to harder drugs is because the former lose their effect and no longer give them the sensations they crave. This absolutely does not happen in the case of cigs. Unless you want to tell me that people who smoke cigs would start smoking weed if cigarettes were banned!

You obviously have no real understanding of the highly addictive properties in cigs

Think of why people smoke cigs at all , simply because of the way it makes them feel ,,it not being stoned , and even taking a couple tokes of pot does not mean you get stoned even though it has an effect ,Cig smokers smoke because they Need it , can't go without it that is why they smoke 20 to 40 or even 60 cigs per day ,,they crave it, . I notice at every job there is smokers who can't wait for break so they can smoke , like it or not cigs are a drug that creates addiction because it has mind altering effects .People will say they need it to calm their nerves , they need it in order to relax, they can't really relax without it. Many people smoke pot to help go to sleep

Look at the extreme measures most cig smokers will go to to get their fix of nicotine and other chemicals in cigs ...many smokers will lose a lung because of the damage caused by smoking , but will still continue to smoke because they gotta have it because of they way it makes them feel , regardless of how much damage it causes

The government has been growing pot on government pot farms for decades , the government sells pot for medicinal usage ,

Again it is God who will determine if a person used drugs for a legit reason or not and He will be judge ,not you or anyone else

Drugs are used for variety of reasons and pain control and anxiety control are a couple.

There is an epidemic on the misuse of prescription drugs which is far worse than pot

Like I have said before I am not defending smoking pot , but simply presenting that so much hysteria about it as a sin and yet when it comes to smoking cigs that have been proven to cause cancers and cause even death and loss of limbs people who focus their arrows at pot smokers try to nullify smokers of cigs as if it was no big deal when it is

There is medical proof that pot has medicinal benefits which is why the government grows it and sells it

There are no medicinal benefits in smoking cigs

I seemingly am in the minority of people here that have not made this a pot vs. something else debate. Like I've opined, cigs are bad, weed is bad. Legal or illegal doesn't change that. I'm curious why you would say I have no understanding of the highly addictive properties in cigs. I would imagine EVERYONE knows how addictive they are.

Lastly, about your comment on people that "focus their arrows at pot smokers to try to nullify smokers of cigs" : perhaps the reason it appears that pot is being picked on, singled out, etc., compared to cigs, is because, unlike marijuana proponents, nobody is saying cigs are good for you. Everyone knows cigs are bad, so if a smoking group had the audacity to start a campaign saying it was good for you, that group would receive just as many arrows headed their way.

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

This is a​ false dichotomy. There is no graduation from one drug or another. If so you would have included cigarettes. The reason why weed is called a "gateway" drug is because it is illegal. If tobacco were illegal then it would be called a gateway drug. Why? This is because the people that sell weed also sell other harder drugs, thus making it easier for a person to get access to them.

What is with the comparisons between apples and oranges I keep seeing? Nobody graduates from cigarettes to other drugs, as is the case with non-cigarette drug-users.

Cigarettes will never be a gateway to anything, because they don't get you stoned and impair you like marijuana does, and they don't affect you in the same ways that pot does. And people who smoke cigs don't do so for the same reasons pot-smokers do, and vice versa. And about graduation, in many cases there absolutely is when it comes to pot.

The reason many people progress from the softer to harder drugs is because the former lose their effect and no longer give them the sensations they crave. This absolutely does not happen in the case of cigs. Unless you want to tell me that people who smoke cigs would start smoking weed if cigarettes were banned!

But as I've said several times in different posts, the issue of legality or illegality is a red herring.

Just admit that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Before weed became illegal, it was never called a gateway drug. It was only after it was made illegal that it was then a gateway drug. I smoked for a long time, and I mean a long time, and I never progressed neither has many of those that I smoked with. Now I know others that used coke, but it wasn't due to the high being less impactful. It was because they were persuaded into trying the other drug. This has been the case for 99 percent of the people I have known that have tried something else. Basically, you have proven that you are not knowledgeable on this subject, and are just saying the same ol government propaganda. They have a whole other reason {$$$$} for keeping it illegal. They just need to keep those that still hold a weedaphobia mentality, to continue to push their tired slogans.

If you can show me some numbers that coincide with this gateway theory I'll retract my statement. But consider, you need to provide numbers of "graduation" before and after weed became illegal.

A little bit testy, aren't you? Attack the messenger when you don't like the message. You know what, I don't care what weed was called before or after it became legal. I am debating whether or not Christians should use it, while you are just side-tracking and ignoring everything I say. You will believe what you want to believe, and you will keep on idolizing the weed. That's your right, but I believe you will answer to God for promoting drug use.

Christians and drugs. Wow, what a world!! What's next?

This is what I have noticed from people with your stance, time and again : you apparently cannot even remotely accept or agree that there just might be some bad things about weed. Nooooooo, it's the wonder drug! Why, it's even God-approved!! How dare I besmirch the idol that is marijuana! According to you, people that are against weed not only don't know what they're talking about, but they are weedaphobics. :24: What a ridiculous thing to say.

I think there are many reasons why Christian marriages are failing so much. For starters, it is quite possible that many of those who profess to be Christians really aren't.

Yep, and it's quite possible that a cherry tree that produces plumbs isn't a cherry tree.

If more people trembled before God, they would perhaps fear the consequences of doing things God hates, more than they might fear the consequences of having to stay in a marriage that is not up to their standards.

I absolutely agree. Many Christians have no fear of God, and so they don't obey God. Their response to any verse that teaches the virtue of the fear of God is to mutter 1 John 4:18, fear is the absence of love. Fair enough, but if they loved God, they would obey God. Those who say they love God but divorces their spouse is a liar.

I think the biggest reasons Christians divorce is because they run their marriage by worldly standards, which doesn't work for non-Christians, either. But, non-Christians tend to avoid the divorce by not getting married in the first place.

You hit the nail on the head on all points. Marriages being run by worldly standards, claims to love God but divorcing their spouse, etc.

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

This is a​ false dichotomy. There is no graduation from one drug or another. If so you would have included cigarettes. The reason why weed is called a "gateway" drug is because it is illegal. If tobacco were illegal then it would be called a gateway drug. Why? This is because the people that sell weed also sell other harder drugs, thus making it easier for a person to get access to them.

What is with the comparisons between apples and oranges I keep seeing? Nobody graduates from cigarettes to other drugs, as is the case with non-cigarette drug-users.

Cigarettes will never be a gateway to anything, because they don't get you stoned and impair you like marijuana does, and they don't affect you in the same ways that pot does. And people who smoke cigs don't do so for the same reasons pot-smokers do, and vice versa. And about graduation, in many cases there absolutely is when it comes to pot.

The reason many people progress from the softer to harder drugs is because the former lose their effect and no longer give them the sensations they crave. This absolutely does not happen in the case of cigs. Unless you want to tell me that people who smoke cigs would start smoking weed if cigarettes were banned!

But as I've said several times in different posts, the issue of legality or illegality is a red herring.

How many years have you actually used drugs and partied with other drug users?None right? Pot has been shown to help is various ways in the medical field just as morphine and cocaine has but yet both are used recreationally illegally Cocaine was the original ingredient in Coca-Cola derived from the plant , then caffeine .replaced it

Hmmmmm, why does that matter? Because you're itching to tell me that if I never tried it I shouldn't say anything about it, right? But again, it doesn't matter, because if I told you I've done plenty more than you and your friends, would you then cut me some slack that maybe I know a little bit about what I'm talking about? I suspect that even then you wouldn't. And I don't know how much of this thread you've read, but in one of my other posts I explained some of what I know about drugs and how I know it.

Yes, I am aware that cocaine was in Coca-Cola and that they used to rub heroin on baby's teeth and all that stuff. And? As I've stated elsewhere, legality is not an issue with me. I couldn't care less what the government calls legal. And your, and others' ubiquitously-trumpeted phrase that pot has been shown to be helpful to some people is a moot point. Because it may help in one area but harm in 5 others.

Obviously you have misinterpreted everything I say ,,you get the idea that because someone shows a different side of things that they are defending pot,,,I am not defending it except for medicinal use if there is valid reason for it , God will be judge not you, God made the pot plant , and all other plants that can be used for good , even though some use it for wrong reasons. Point is that there are some people who are genetically more prone to addiction

Well, if I am misinterpreting you, it is because in one breath you talk about medicinal use, and in the same breath you talk about recreational use. Are they one and the same to you? Are you defending both? Also, your different point of view doesn't enter into the equation, so please don't try and make it about that, as if I am just here to disagree with you because I love to be disagreeable. My posts to you have mostly been about your methodology in defending pot, which you curiously have not responded to.

So the basic gist of this statement is, since none of can know if we fall into the category of those that are predisposed to becoming addicted, right from the get-go there is a definite risk involved in smoking up. So how much risk is acceptable in your view?

The word "addiction" doesn't have a positive aspect to it, does it? I think that's why the national pot advocacy groups severely downplay this aspect, as it would definitely hurt their cause. Interestingly, one of the hallmarks of addiction is denial. ^{How many pot smokers have you known that admitted they had a problem? Exactly, same goes for me.}

Anyway, factors in the causality of addiction include how much is used and the potency of it. Obviously if someone smokes a joint once in a blue moon he is likely not going to get addicted. But I have never seen a recreational pot-smoker that wasn't addicted to it. That's why we have the term, "recreational use", so we can deny that it is an addiction or need. It's a really nice P.R. term IMO.

One question I might add is, if it is simply recreational, and not addiction, what is their motivation/reason for regularly using it? I'm not talking about using it to try curb severe pain, I'm talking about their need or desire to get high. It is an escape from reality and fleshly pursuit of pleasure.

Case in point for that question : nobody drinks alcohol because they love the flavor, because if they said that's the reason, I would then ask why no one drinks a case of soda in one go like alcohol drinkers often do. There are many millions more soft drink-lovers than dope smokers, yet you don't see the same behavior. People drink alcohol to get high; they like the sensations it produces in their body ; they like having their mental processes altered. Same thing with drug users, right? So the obvious point is, the recreational part of pot-smoking means getting high, escaping from reality, numbing their senses, tripping out, etc. So please tell me what is so good about that. And please tell me how the word "recreational" has any bearing on smoking drugs? Is drug use a hobby? Is it for fun? Something to do in your spare time? Anyway, I'm done flogging that horse, I'll move along to your next points.

Wait, one more comment. My buddies couldn't start their day without having 2 joints with their breakfast. In fact that was their breakfast! And none of them were hardcore users, just guys that would smoke up at a rock concert, or the odd party.

but this notion of pot being a gateway drug is false in the way it is taught , It depends on what a given person is seeking , most teenagers don't know much about drugs so they experiment with various ones till they find what they like, ..some people never smoke pot but will smoke coke cause they have already snorted coke and liked it. the idea that a person has a addiction to porn has to get into harder and harder more perverted porn in nonsense,

Pot absolutely is a gateway to other drugs for most users, and as to what a given person is seeking, they are seeking to feed their lust of the flesh, are they not? It astounds me that you don't see even the slightest spiritual component to drug-taking. Healthy/stable-minded people in love with Christ and walking in the spirit have no need for drugs as far as I'm concerned.

People take drugs because something is wrong in their lives, not because something is good in their lives. Think about that!

As to your point about it being nonsense, all I can say is, What????? Then pray-tell, why have the porno mags gotten more and more explicit over the decades? Because no one is into hardcore? Have you never heard the expression, "give the people what they want"? Your comment here shows a serious lack of understanding about addiction and a similar amount of denial. Not to mention, a lack of understanding about what the bible calls a reprobate mind. You don't go from "fine" to reprobate over night. It is a process whereby the more you partake of sin, the more sin you need and the worse it gets. When you open the door to sin, sin doesn't just sit there all content and happy, it makes you want more of it. So for the life of me, I don't know how you can act like the sin of pornography just stays the same.

Why is Playboy magazine losing money? Because it is too soft for the average porn consumer?

highly exaggerated ,,,there are many Christian women that are addicted to porn but are not seeking more perverse porn or sexual encounters, There are sex addicts that just need lots of sex but that does not mean it has to become perverted sex .

You know this about Christian women, how? And I notice you didn't include men, which are different than women.

Do you seriously not see any ripple effect to sin? Beastiality is now legal in some Scandinavian countiries. Swearing and full nudity is no longer rare on t.v. anymore. So it doesn't matter if some people don't do "perverted" sex, or aren't as "bad" as others, the point is that all sin, when excused, will eventually lead to the inexcusable. I should copyright that quote.

The thing is, all I did was say one sentence about the colloration between the addictions of porn and drugs, and it wasn't my intention to get side-tracked from the topic of marijuana.

Do you think there is ANY, any at all, innocency to sin? As in, there is no ripple effect to it? Do you think a sinful lifestyle controls you, or you control it? You can just indulge in 1 sin and never desire any related ones? Is the flesh, which 24/7 wars against the spirit, ever satisfied? Can a stoned, intoxicated mind resist the temptations of the devil?

Problem is that just because pot has been illegal and now illegal is where all this comes from as there have been people trying to make it legal for decades , My point about cig smoking is that is NONE reasons to smoke except gratification ,NO health benefits and is 100% Harmful to the body

Okay, I am asking you a sincere and honest question here, and I would expect the same in your answer. Has the motive behind this decades-long fight for legalization been to help cancer victims relieve their pain? Or has it been more like to promote a drug lifestyle or counterculture (which is a fancy way of saying 'rebellion')?

And I guess you whizzed by my request that you make your case for pot without comparing it to anything. But you insist on making a,"it's better than cigarettes" kind of plea. But we're not discussing cigarettes. This thread is not about cigarettes. They could be the absolute worst susbstance one could ever put into the body, they could kill a billion people a year; but that would not prove anything about any positivity of using marijuana! So why do you keep bringing them up? Surely that is not how you judge the morality and correctness about things in your life. So please try to refrain from the comparisons of one vice to another!

and millions of Christians smoke them and it is a sin to take anything that causes harm to the body of the Holy Spirit but this practice is permitted and accepted by many churches

Absolutely agree that harming the body can be a sin! Except it appears that you don't think pot-smoking grieves the Holy Spirit, correct?

And I couldn't care less what is accepted. Morality is not a mass-approved concept.

but when it comes to pot and it is all condemnation even though it has been proven to be medicinally beneficial and it is due to the stigma of being illegal .

So your solution is what, don't condemn one vice (pot) because another (cigarettes) isn't condemned? You think it isn't fair? I agree that people aren't consistent in their condemnation, but I don't agree that pot is this wonderful drug you're making it out to be. Both are harmful, in different ways. Smoking cigarettes relaxes the nerves in people, so that makes smoking okay? Shall I get on a soapbox about how cigs are good because they do that, while ignoring the plethora of harmful effects it has on the body? I think that's what you're doing about pot. You're screaming into the megaphone (so to speak) about how pot is helpful to people (what, it helps people in pain?) while ignoring the numerous health problems associated with it.

As to your statement that pot has been proven to be medicinally beneficial, not meaning to be crude, but so has drinking your own urine for health benefits.

Cig makers are proven to put chemicals in their cigs for the purpose of making them addictive cause if a person can break the habit the maker loses money. Cig makers for decades paid huge "perks' and made HUGE donations to political parties to make sure cigs remain legal.

Pot is available is ways that it does not need to be smoked and provides health benefits , there is no way to make cigs health benefits, but they have always been legal because the powers of regulation get huge financial benefits , it they did not they would have shut down the cig industry decades ago

Let me try to make a direct and simple point. NO ONE at my place of employment is allowed to come to work with marijuana (or, obviously, any other drug) in his system. They are not allowed to smoke it on the premises or during work hours. They are not allowed to work around machinery, ETC. And it is not because the workforce wants to be mean to people. Or discriminate, or take away rights, or because they are ignorant about pot, or judgmental, holier than thou, or anything of the sort. It is because marijuana IMPAIRS YOU and will negatively affect your work duties. How is that not obvious to you? Is it not equally obvious that the employees receive no such disapprobation against smoking cigarettes????

If you have pot in your system at my workplace, someone is going to get badly hurt or killed, pure and simple. And I would refuse to work beside you, your hurt feelings notwitstanding. This isn't a game about poor downtrodden pot advocates that no one understands and that always get denied their rights.

It all comes down to the greed and lust of money, same reason pharmaceutical companies give huge donations to universities and hospitals with the agreement the the recipients will not prescribe and endorse naturally grown herbs and fruits and vegetation because it is all about control ,,No company can put a patent on grapes or apples,

but they can put patents on man made chemicals that simulate what natural fruits and herbs can do .

And you think it would be different with pot?

Anyway, if you saw how slow I type, you would know how long it takes me to answer just 1 post like this, so my time is out. You haven't answered any of my questions, nor provided any evidence for your statements, instead just going on and on about cigarettes. Pot AND Cigarettes are bad; it doesn't matter which one is worse.

Personally, I don't think it is right to do anything that causes any loss of our mental faculties where we are more vulnerable to sin in those times. The Bible places such a high premium on always practicing good judgment that doing anything to ourselves that impairs our judgment would contradict the teachings of Scripture and thus would not be right for a Christian to engage in.

We are to be people who live above the moral fog that is so characteristic of this world. We are to be people whose character is to be above reproach in these areas. We are kings and priests to the most high God and our moral conduct should reflect that in the world.

Amen

Absolutely, very well said!

A Christian has an obligation to obey the law, and so should not use illegal drugs.

Yes, he does, if it is a Godly law, but that subject is discussed in another thread, so I won't rehash it here.

But, legal drugs are a matter of conscience.

Our conscience comes from the Holy Spirit, does it not? If so, when would He tell us to smoke pot?

Drugs are not inherently wrong, unlike abortion.

Okay let me ask you this. If drugs are not wrong, would you really not have a problem with it if your pastor toked up all the time?

Why is consuming marijuana an appearance/form of evil?

Well for one thing, the bible says the use of drugs is akin to sorcery. Also, can you at least admit that drug-taking is worldly - ie: fleshly - if nothing else? But of course it is more than that. And the reason why it is an appearance/form of evil is because you are willfully intoxicating your body and there are no good connotations to the term "drug addict", which is what anyone who regularly takes drugs is. People can play semantic games by talking of "recreational drug use", or other fancy ways of saying "drug addict", but the results are the same.

No one in his right mind would automatically say anything to the effect of, "that's so great that he's a drug user".

Of course, a Christian shouldn't use drugs in any fashion that would lead someone to the idea that a pagan religion is being practiced. Marijuana consumption usually isn't associated with pagan religion.

But marijuana consumption is a spiritual thing to those who have used it enough. You can liken pot-smoking to just getting mellow, or putting yourself into a relaxed state, or whatever, but the fact is your mind is being altered when you smoke drugs. And the mind is where Satan attacks, and how can you resist his attacks when you are not even in a normal state of mind?

Anyway, I don't think it's a very good witness for Christians to go to church dressed like pot-smoking hippies or mall rats. If this is really all about appearances....

Yes, it is about appearances, as in the mall rat/hippie look you referred to, but appearances also means perceptions. A pastor can be in a 3-piece suit and as soon as he lights up a joint in front of me, my perception of him changes. You know what I mean?

I am not trying to down play it but just being realistic , pot is not a big deal to stop using when a person chooses to stop ,, cigarettes are far more addictive than pot is , and cigarettes have no medicinal value at all. Real drugs like cocaine , heroin , pcp designer drugs are far worse as they cause severe trauma , people will commit any crime to get money to pay for real drugs , women sell their body for a line of coke , but not for a joint,

Consider how irritable cig smokers get if they can't smoke every break at work ,on the way to and from work , all day every day even when legal .When they are told they can't smoke they get agitated ,even angry .When laws get passed that ban smoking the smokers become very angry and outraged at how dare they ban smoking while not caring about those who don't smoke .Smokers carry on as if a right has been taken from them not accepting it was only a privilege that they abused so much that laws had to be passed to curtail the abuse of smoking in the face of people who do not want smoke in their face.

So what I am saying is that people who smoke cigs fit the description you give of those who get stoned regularly and have no pot to smoke ,cig smokers are the same way . A very large number of Christians still smoke cigs and think it ok and say they'll quit someday but look down on others that smoke pot ..Consider where someone grows up, if pot is legal all their life it is not looked upon the same as those who grow up where it is illegal

Heroin , morphine , crack cocaine are a whole different story and legal pharmaceutical drugs are far worse than pot can ever be,,just think about Oxycontin and the various derivatives and the drug company that made them hid the addictive results in order to make billions

My first reply will echo one I stated elsewhere in this, or another thread about marijuana, which is : why do defenders of pot always compare it to other things in order to try justify it? Do we say stealing isn't so bad because murder is worse? In the same vein, is marijuana good because it's not as bad as cocaine? It seems like that was the angle your comments were coming from, with your foremost example being your comparison between cigarette and pot smokers.

But IMHO such straw-man/non sequitur comments do not bolster your pro-pot stance. Can you talk about pot without bringing any other drug up? If pot was good you wouldn't need to bring up anything else, it would be self-evident. But it isn't good, so you need to compare it to some things that are worse than it, or have cons of their own, in order to make pot seem good, or harmless, or no big deal, or whatever.

Here's just a quick question for you: what do you think is the more common scenario for drug-users? :

1) they start out on hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc., and then graduate towards pot ........... OR

2) they start out with marijuana, and then graduate towards the hard drugs, like cocaine, heroin, etc.?

I think you see my point, that, like pornography addictions need to get harder and more perverse in order to satisfy the never-satisfied lust of the flesh, so too, in the case of drugs, pot often quickly becomes "not enough", and leads many users to try other drugs in order to try satisfy that particular lust of the flesh. So just that factor alone makes cigarette smoking not even qualified to be discussed in the same conversation about marijuana.

Now in answer to your other points, marijuana fries your brain, and harms your body just as much as cigarettes do, if not more, so once again, comparing it to harsher drugs, or whatever other angle you may use, proves nothing. So if all you've got is, "it's easier to withdraw from pot-smoking than from cigarette-smoking", or, "it is "easier to quit than drinking is", or "Christians smoke cigarettes, so why can't they smoke marijuana?", then sorry friend, you're going to have to do better than that.

Can pot stand on it's own merits without being compared to anything else? Or can I justify eating 2 Big Macs a day because it's better than eating 5 bags of Oreo cookies a day? Do you see what I mean?

I don't believe it's wrong for a Christian to consume legal marijuana. I don't believe legalism and following man-made religious laws makes someone a better witness. And, no, there's not a liberal bone in my body when it comes to approving of sinful behavior.

Hi, Eisleben. Is legal marijuana like legal abortion? In other words, legal means okay? On your point about better witnesses, I don't think a Christian smoking a joint is a good witness to anybody. We are to abstain from all appearances of evil and not be worldly.

That all pagan religions use all sorts of drugs in their worship practices should be a tip-off, in my opinion as to whether it should be used by us or not.

Lastly, so I understand what you said more clearly, when you referred to legalism, were you saying that it is legalism for a Christian to avoid pot for moral/biblical or other religious reasons? God bless!

Well thank you. Seeing how it was so long a post I can't believe anyone actually read it!

Just another quick thought. The gays can have whatever translation they want, but it changes nothing, because the word of the Lord stands forever. They seek to justify and glorify themselves in the sight of man with this new translation, but again I say, the word of the Lord stands forever. Only the Lord can justify us, not a reworked translation of the bible.

1 Peter 1

²³ Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

²⁴ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

²⁵ But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Queen James? Didn't they mean "Queen transgendered James"? Sheesh, these people truly are reprobate.

Amen!

Galatians 6:2

Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Romans 12

¹⁰ Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

¹² Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;¹⁵ Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

fear, or terror, or dread..TERROR i say? yes!

i am utterly terrified of someone who has the power to erase my existence with a thought!

good thing God is love, and a Righteous Judge of men.

woe to the man who blindly fears not He who created the Universe!

God bless you GE. i'll share a few..

Psalm 34

34 I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.

² My soul shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

³ O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.

⁴ I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.

⁵ They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed.

⁶ This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

⁷ The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

⁸ O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

⁹ O fear the Lord, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

¹⁰ The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the Lord shall not want any good thing.

¹¹ Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord.

¹² What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?

¹³ Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

¹⁴ Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

¹⁵The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

¹⁶ The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

¹⁷ The righteous cry, and the Lord heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.

¹⁸ The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

¹⁹ Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.

²⁰ He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

²¹ Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.

²² The Lord redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

1) a God-fearing man trusts and obeys the Lord. obedience that lacks trust produces dead works. disobedience leads to unrighteousness.

a man of godly character behaves godly, and so we who seek righteousness and all good things seek godliness through His Holy Spirit.

this key characteristic of godliness encompasses the plethora of the fruits of the Spirit...which leads us to the following:

Job 1

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

² And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters.

³ His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

⁴ And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.

⁵ And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

⁶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

⁷ And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

⁸ And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

⁹ Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

¹⁰ Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

¹¹ But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

¹² And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

¹³ And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

¹⁴ And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:

¹⁵ And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

¹⁶ While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

¹⁷ While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

¹⁸ While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

¹⁹ And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

²⁰ Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

²¹ And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

²² In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

2) a God-fearing man praises his Creator throughout times of anguish and sorrow. he dares not curse the name of God, or forsake Him who allows us to experience trials for reasons we cannot yet see.

on the contrary, a God-fearing man blesses the name of the Lord. he trusts in the Lord.

this key characteristic..is faithfulness.

-------------

Psalm 111:10

¹⁰ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Proverbs 9:10

¹⁰ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

3) a God-fearing man is wise.

we see that the understanding that is achieved through this God-given wisdom, is the knowledge of that which is holy.

thus the man who fears God is given wisdom to further discern the holy characteristics of godliness..

i find it interesting how this seems to have come full circle quite nicely with the Woman of Influence.

love to you and God bless..

Very nice post. Fear of the Lord is definitely a Godly trait to have. I like your point about obedience and trust going together as well.

Psalm 111:10

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

He is the Almighty God, of whom we should tremble in awe at His Majesty and power. Just my 2 cents...............

I think there are many reasons why Christian marriages are failing so much. For starters, it is quite possible that many of those who profess to be Christians really aren't. So the Christian divorce rate looks higher than it really is.

I mean, who makes those statistics on divorce and how do they come up with the numbers? The secular pollsters/statisticians, being unaware, may use the criteria that going to church automatically means Christian; when, of course, lots of people may go to church, but are not not truly Christians. So I am sure this factors into the statistics.

The secular world, which loves to make Christians look as bad as possible, wants to deem as many marriages as possible Christian, so that when they divorce they can make them seem no different than secular marriages.

I hear all the time about how America is supposedly 70, 80 or some other ridiculously high percent Christian, and I think "no way!" Things wouldn't be the way they are if we were.

And I think the same holds true for Christian marriages. If they were truly Christian their divorce rate would be much lower, because Christians would be seeking to honor the Lord instead of and ahead of themselves. But when people divorce, they are honoring themselves as more important than their vows to their spouse, and more important than God. Sounds harsh? Well the truth hurts. Will we suffer in a less than ideal marriage in order to please God, or will we divorce and seek a more fulfilling life, God's will and commands about marriage notwithstanding?

Divorce is all about me. I deserve happiness. It is I-centered, instead of God-centered. God must have something better than this for me. I have rights. My happiness is the end-goal, and if I am not getting it, someone else will be more than happy to take someone as special as me. Not to mention an attitude of, "God will forgive me, He will understand". ETC.

On that last point, maybe hand in hand with it is a lackadaisical attitude towards sin, and a lack of proper reverence/fear of the Lord? God hates sin. God hates divorce. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And our attitude is, "whatever"?

If more people trembled before God, they would perhaps fear the consequences of doing things God hates, more than they might fear the consequences of having to stay in a marriage that is not up to their standards.

For me, personally, if I was unhappy in my marriage I would nonetheless stay in it as an act of obedience and love to the Lord. My happiness is secondary to His will and holiness, and His holy will is that we not divorce except in the case of fornication/adultery.

Some other reasons for high rates of divorce are :

-unequally yoking of partners

- marriage is seemingly often viewed as "something you do", rather than something you commit to.

- add to that, faulty/unrealistic expectations of married life (whether it's an expected/assumed life-long honeymoon, all good times and no bad times, an "I'm in it for a good time, not a long time" mentality)

- and unrealistic views about love

- easy divorce mechanisms in place in society = an "easy out".

- pride and self-centeredness of course greatly harms marriages.

Also, some Christians may think because they are Christians that means they automatically have a right to a great marriage, definitely one that is better than others'. They feel their marriage is in God's hands (which it is) and that means everything is all taken care of and happiness and a great outcome is assured. Then when things start going wrong one or both of them become disillusioned with, and resent God for "letting them down".

Another possible reason is :

Some Christians are very good at coming up with excuses for why they should or shouldn't do some action. They may have this mentality that "God wants better for me", and as such they think He is telling them they should move on and find "a more Godly man/woman". Or someone that treats them better, or whatever.

People get married because they love each other, he/they have good jobs, they both love kids, they get along with their in-laws, she is great-looking, he is handsome, etc.

Then the job situation takes a hit for the worse, someone's health goes bad, someone gains a lot of weight or isn't attractive to the other anymore, the intimacy lessens or disappears, one of them has a difficult period that strains the marriage, and you start wondering why God would want you to be this unhappy. You then reason that He doesn't, which then leads to the idea that maybe He wants you to divorce.

So instead of staying committed to your one flesh union, and being obedient/faithful to God in your marriage vows, and staying in the marriage regardless of how you feel, you take the easy way out, and maybe even reason that it's somehow okay, or not that big a deal, because "you're not the only one doing it".

I realize these are simplified explanations. But I want to add that I disagree with the answer some people give as to why Christians divorce as much as everyone else, because Christian or non-Christian, we're all human. Yes, we're all human, but I believe as Christians we have a higher standard to uphold than the world.

I hadn't planned on being so verbose, so I will try to wrap this up.

Last thing I want to add, one I think it very important, is that too many people don't understand that love is not just a feeling, it is a choice. Just like we can choose to forgive or not forgive. We may not feel like forgiving, but we do because we know it is the right thing to do.......We can choose to be happy despite our circumstances, or we can choose to wallow in depression, anger, bitterness, or whatever the situation may be. Feelings are often fickle and faulty, and they shouldn't cloud our choices and decisions.

Marriage commitment is A CHOICE !! Christian marriage is a vow to GOD, as such we can't dishonor our spouse without dishonoring God.

I don't mind these parts

A. Her Assets:

She is trustworthy (v. 11)

She is a positive influence (v. 12)

She is a hard worker (v. 13, 14, 19, 24-27)

She is protective (v. 27)

B. Her Achievements

She meets the needs of her home (v. 15)

She helps her husband become successful. (v. 23)

C. Her Attitudes

Delightful (v. 13)

Compassionate (v. 20)

Unselfish (v. 20)

D. Her Applause

From her family (v. 28)

From her husband (v. 28, 29)

From God's Word (v. 30)

From her works (v. 31)

But I have a problem with these parts:

A. Her Assets:

She is a planner (v. 21, 22)

B. Her Achievements

She invests for her household (v. 16)

She keeps herself in shape (v. 17)

C. Her Attitudes

Healthy (v. 18)

Public (v. 25)

I'm not skilled at planning.

I'm not a financial wizard

I'm not athletically inclined

I have health issues that can't be healed naturally

I'm introverted

Can any woman possibly be this super-woman described here?

Actually, I was thinking right away when I read the start of this thread that this woman doesn't exist today. Maybe she existed in the time it was written, but I really don't think so today. Does that sound too cynical?

Certainly a slap to my sisters here who are pressing to be thus ... perhaps violating the encouragement aspect of Scripture!

I have read some remarkable virtues of some who have written here... so perhaps yes to cynical ... Love, Steven

No slap intended! And more power to all our sisters that are pressing toward that mark! My comment was simply that I haven't seen such a woman yet, that can be described in all of the above terms. That's not to say I don't think there are exceptional Christian women, because there are. But based on what I, personally, have seen all my life, I am admittedly slightly cynical/skeptical, about it. God bless!

In Genesis 17: 6-8, and in several other places of the Bible, God makes a everlasting covenant, here with Abraham to be his and his seed's God for ever. In Hebrew 8:6-13 Paul, inspired by God, repeats the words of the prophet Jeremiah that He intends to make a new covenant, and then actually carried it out, because the first was not faultless.

To me there seems to be problem in that the first covenant was not at all everlasting as is written God has promised. And I also wonder why God should make a covenant in the first place that is not faultless.

Maybe someone can give me some insights into this issue (and maybe the problem can be solved easily).

There are numerous places in the O.T. that translate the Hebrew word "owlam" as "everlasting", but owlam doesn't always mean that. Such as in Gen 17:13 & Num 25:13 for example.

This is really sickening. My prayers are with the family and church.

I don't mind these parts

A. Her Assets:

She is trustworthy (v. 11)

She is a positive influence (v. 12)

She is a hard worker (v. 13, 14, 19, 24-27)

She is protective (v. 27)

B. Her Achievements

She meets the needs of her home (v. 15)

She helps her husband become successful. (v. 23)

C. Her Attitudes

Delightful (v. 13)

Compassionate (v. 20)

Unselfish (v. 20)

D. Her Applause

From her family (v. 28)

From her husband (v. 28, 29)

From God's Word (v. 30)

From her works (v. 31)

But I have a problem with these parts:

A. Her Assets:

She is a planner (v. 21, 22)

B. Her Achievements

She invests for her household (v. 16)

She keeps herself in shape (v. 17)

C. Her Attitudes

Healthy (v. 18)

Public (v. 25)

I'm not skilled at planning.

I'm not a financial wizard

I'm not athletically inclined

I have health issues that can't be healed naturally

I'm introverted

Can any woman possibly be this super-woman described here?

Actually, I was thinking right away when I read the start of this thread that this woman doesn't exist today. Maybe she existed in the time it was written, but I really don't think so today. Does that sound too cynical?