webb

We may be on the same page on this one in a sense.

The kingdom reigns in the hearts of those who accept Christ Jesus, be it before or after Acts 1:1, as Jesus clearly stated. What you are focusing on is a future tense, but Jesus statement is present tense. I understand the kingdon (church) was not established until Acts 2, not Acts 1. Your understanding is off. Christ established the understanding way before Acts 1 or 2.

Thanks Ninhao for your consideration. I of all men certainly do not know the hearts of others, only my Lord does. God's speed w

True....although I do believe a new thread would just be the old thread....right? I'm just wondering when the flying saucers will appear Hi Enoob57 Thanks for callng attention to an error I made which I did not intend. I wrote: "I have no reason to believe that when one writes 'God bless' they mean it." What I intended was: ''I HAVE NO REASON TO BELIEVE THAT WHEN ONE WRITES GOD BLESS THEY DO NOT MEAN IT." I failed to write into the sentence "do not". It was a tragic error on my part. w

The kingdom reigns in the hearts of those who accept Christ Jesus, be it before or after Acts 1:1, as Jesus clearly stated. What you are focusing on is a future tense, but Jesus statement is present tense. I understand the kingdon (church) was not established until Acts 2, not Acts 1.

What you are trying to get us to believe is that two covenants are going to witness 1260 days, clothed in sackcloth. These two covenants will have the power to stop the rain, while they are prophesying, and they can turn water into blood. These two covenants will be able to smite the earth with plagues, and they will testify. These two covenants will be killed by the beast, lie dead in the street, and rise again. Who is the beast that kills them? What does that represent? This doesn't make logical sense to me. What exactly would that mean? What are we to take from both the Old and New Covenants dying and rising again, before they are taken to heaven? Butero--Revelation is a difficult text. Numerous are the suggested possible meanings of chapter 11.The one I lean to most is that the 2 witnesses are the 2 testaments. The OT said "to the law and to the testimony" and the word "testimony" is found in the text of chapter 11. I have endeavored to give my reasons for my position as to the identity of the 2 witnesses. I have suggestions for reasonably good answers to the questions you posted. However, to date, to my knowledge, no one has suggested to me who they think the 2 witnesses are if not the covenants. Until such is forthcoming I see no reason for me to continue. God bless

Thank you Fez for calling attention to the fact that I've mis-called a fellow contributer's name. It is not intentional. I have no reason to believe that when one writes "God bless" they mean it. I trust you believe it when I do the same. God bless w

OneLight's name is plain for all to see. Secondly, when he says God Bless at the end of a post he means it. Thirdly, some of us have a modicum of discernment having been on this site for a while.

Thank you OneLight for calling my attention to the fact that I have mis-spelled some names on this forum. I assure you it has not been "Purposely". Luke 17:21 has the verse in future temse, "neither shall they say--.'' The fact remains, prior to Acts 2, the kingdom (church) was not present. It is evident that in vss 20,21 Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. Was the kingdom in them? I agree that the Jews looked for a worldly kingdom and even Jesus' disciples had some problem with understanding the kingdom.

The Kingdom the Pharisees were looking for was that of the physical ruling Messiah, a Messiah that would rule the whole world, which is why they missed the whole ministry of Jesus. They were not looking of salvation they way Jesus brought salvation. The ruling power Jesus brought was one of inner ruling over the old man, not over the whole world. If you had taken your concordance out, you would of realized that kingdom is the same all through the NT, G932, and would not of tried to make another member seem unprepared or unstudied. Perhaps you should take your own advice. If you truly want to increase your understanding, you will go beyond the concordance and into the Greek and Hebrew. Yet, one does not need a concordance to understand that Jesus is speaking in the present when He said "For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." ... "is" is not a future tense word, but a present tense word. By the way, try to get peoples names right. Purposely writing someones name wrong is so childlike.

Thanks Newlight Of course the translation into the kingdom is spiitual but that does not remove the fact that the kingdom is not here now. Note very carefully the text you gave (Lk.17:20:21). The kingdom was not present when the Pharisees asked their question, vs. 20. Vs. 21 indicates the kingdom was not yet then for Jesus used the phrase "neither shall they say" which is future tense. And of course the kingdom is within the disciple, for to the Philippians Paul said "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" and to the Colosians Paul wrote "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Get your concordance out and search the word kingdom, before Pentecost in Acts 2 the kingdom is spoken of in the future sense, AFTER Pentecost its in the present tense, Col.1:13 etc., God bless

Thats rigtht, the scripture does not say from your perspective. But from my position it does so why not go back to my post and show why it can't be so. If from your point of view the 2 witnesses are two people, then only 2 people could perform such miracles.

I did give evidance revelation chapter 11. they get killed. there bodies are left in the streets. they are rasied from the dead called to heaven in the sight of men. Also, it says they can preform the signs in rev. chapter 11 at will. If they are not people, then how do they have a will? In short the context of the chapter in which they are talked about.

Think again. Paul said both he and the Colosians had been TRANSLATED INTO THE KINGDOM. If the kingdom had not come, HOW could they be in it?? Did they leave this earth and go somewhere else to where the kingdom was?? That was in Col.1:13. The WHOLE church was in the kingdom.

Agreed. But exactly 'what' that means must be understood. It does not mean that the kingdom of God had come.

"Givingt thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the powers of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" Col.1:12,13. In the above, Paul definitely declares he and his fellow saints in Colosse were in the kingdom. rejoice

You bring up a perplexing and difficult to understand concept. How can Paul and John amongst others be in the kingdom and the kingdom have not come yet? A very excellent question. The answer lies in understanding the truth behind what Jesus is saying here: Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. Are we not citizens of heaven, though we be here upon the earth? Do we not come before the throne of God to make prayer and supplication with thanksgiving? Does the kingdom of God, which is within us, have to have come in order for this to happen or do we enter it through the narrow gate that only few actually find? One day the kingdoms of this world will be the kingdoms of our God and the kingdom of heaven will be on earth but that day has not yet come. Jesus' kingdom is not of this age but of that which is to come. And until that day come, tongues will not cease, nor the need for knowledge or prophecy as then the whole world will be filled with the knowledge of God instead of being filled with the ignorance which is in them today. Be of good cheer, there is much better things to come for us.

Hi Shiloh No one but no ones "feelings are sufficient" to refute. Thats a major problem of religious division, "feelings" prevail, scripture deminished. Jesus refuted satan with scripture because satan misused, perverted scripture. If you think I misused the scripture then do as did Jesus and refute it with the scripture, not feelings. Being human, commentary is good and even needful, but can never replace scriptural rebuttal.

I thought thats what your answer world be. There are 2 witnesses. You contend (if I understand correctly) they are people because they are killed,their corpses lay in the road and they are later raised to life and they can perform all sorts of miracles. The witnesses are 2 in number according to the text, so, just exactly WHO are they?

I did give evidance revelation chapter 11. they get killed. there bodies are left in the streets. they are rasied from the dead called to heaven in the sight of men. Also, it says they can preform the signs in rev. chapter 11 at will. If they are not people, then how do they have a will? In short the context of the chapter in which they are talked about.

May we take this one step at a time? I have stated I believe the 2 witnesses represent the 2 covenants. I gave some scriptural reasons for so believing. You state that you believe the 2 witnesses are 2 people. Perhaps so, but you gave no scriptural evidence. You state that the context says so, but, if so, where? Rev.11:3 says there are 2 witnesses. Vs.4 says the 2 witnesses are the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks. I gave my understanding as to why they are the OT and NT. Before passing on to the 1,000 + days etc. I would like to hear your evidence for believing the witnesses are men. Thanks

I believe they are what the bible says they are, 2 witnesses. I believe the context clearly says they are people. now let me ask you a qustion. If it is the old and new testament and not 2 people who are witnesses, then how can they be killed, or there bodies be left in the street, or God raise them from the dead and call them up to heaven in the sight of men. I think you are taking the verses out of context. they are 2 witnesses who's 3 and a half years of ministry is labeled as prophecy. which is biblical proof that the gifts are in operation at that time. so the gifts couldn't have ceased or passed away. Last question. It is improper use of scripture to take 1 verse and build a doctrine around it, that isn't supported by other scriptures. What and where is the other biblical verses that state the gifts, like speaking in tongues, have passed away? Thank you and May God bless you Firestormx Joseph

Thanks Onelight. I have lots to learn about using the internet .

Post #462 is you own post, not mine. Perhaps, when you want to refer to another post, you could use the "Quote" button on the bottom right of each post so there will be no confusion, and nobody has to rifle through a thread trying to find the post you are referring to.

Thank you Allofgrace, I refer to your post 519. I didn't address it fuller because of the complexity of the subject and lack of time. I shall give a more thorough address. Its always my desire to keep posts brief. The 2 witnesses are the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks, Rev.11:3,4. This means that the 2 witnesses are symbolically represented by olive trees and lampstands. Remember, Revelation is a book of symbols. The purpose of the candlestick is to give light ( Matt.5:15). Anything that gives light may figuratively be called a candlestick. Thus, the 7 churches (1:20) are called candlesticks. Compare that to what David called the word of God in Psalm 119:105. Lampstands (in marginal reading) can ONLY give light through the oil they contained, thus the things which furnished the oil are called the witnesses. You will find a simular symbol in Zech.4:2-14, with but one candlestick with 7 lamps. The olive trees emptied their oil into the lampstands. They are explained to mean the 2 anointed ones (vs.14). Zerubbabel was told that what he would do would not be by the might of his army but by God's Spirit, vs.6. Thus, the meaning is that just as the oil supplied to the lampstands by the olive trees gave light, so what he did would be by direction of the Spirit of God. Thus in Rev.11 the thought is the light given by the Bible is due to the fact that it was spoken by men inspired by God's Spirit and this is the teaching of II Pet.1:19-21. The word "witness" means one who testifies, and testimony is what is said. The Bible is divided into 2 parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Those 2 testaments are witnesses in the sense that they present to us God's testimony. Inasmuch as the Bible is of 2 testaments, that is, 2 testimonies they represent God's testimony. At this point I pause, for if what is presented here is not of logic and most of all scriptural then for me to continiue is not only a waste of time but pedantic. God bless