Bluefinger

I was just reading about Rome's war on Judea in 66-70 CE. Something stood out to me that I now feel is a solid confirmation of what the fifth trumpet is: During the seige that Vespasian laid on the city, he allowed many Jews to enter the city for the Passover but would not let them leave. This was to starve the city of water and resources so that the seige would end quicker. These were caught in the seige and starved to death. Josephus wrote that these poor souls would be found lying on the ground by the seditious and would beg for them to kill them. The seditious refused. Now, an important piece to note: The 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel that were sealed were not harmed. Why? The remnant was told by Jesus' apostles to flee Jerusalem and not follow after false messiahs. Those that went to Jerusalem for Passover obviously followed the wrong teachers. Jesus' disciples were sealed because they listened to and obeyed His teachings, causing them to abandon the Jewish Cause. Again, I want to stress the Passover. During Moses' ministry, God sent Abadon, the destroying angel, to kill the firstborn of every family whose windows and doors were not covered by Lamb's blood. In the same way, those Jews who did not receive Jesus' teachings and salvation had went to Passover in Jerusalem only to be destroyed. The destroyer was Vespasian, the Roman king. Thus, the fifth trumpet was accomplished during the seige of Jerusalem and is not for future fulfillment. The sixth trumpet, then, is obviously the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple as well as the slaughter of the Jewish Nation.

I think that the letters to the seven churches were written before the Romans and Jews went to war in 66 CE. I think that Revelation chapter 12 tells the story of how John got to Patmos. It tells of the remnant of Israel in exile, (Gen. 37:9-10, Micah 4:9-10) being oppressed by Gentile empires (the dragon), and being persecuted for their faith (Dan. 8:10-11) by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. She gave birth to the Messiah, whom was caught up to heaven. After that, she (the elect remnant) fled to the wilderness (outside the country, to the Gentiles.) Then the dragon makes war in heaven, which on earth looks like the Romans persecuting the disciples specifically, calling them Christians. (Rev. 12:10-11) It shows that they overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb and did not love their lives even unto death. This is the first time Satan is mentioned in the book. What it is actually doing is referring back to Job, where Satan tempts Job by sending him all kinds of plagues to get try to get him to curse God. But Job remains faithful. In the same fashion, the disciples were being persecuted for their faith throughout the empire, and even in Rome, but they remained faithful. So, John was on Patmos Island because he remained faithful to Christ. It seems like the Romans had found all the leaders of the Church and either killed them (like Peter and Paul) or were about to kill them (like John; Matthew 20:20-23.) Revelation 12 also shows that, after the persecution had ended, the dragon pursued the woman by means of a flood. Here, the serpent is used, and then the dragon. The use of the word serpent looks back to the Garden of Eden, concerning cunning deception. In this case, false prophets and false christs made their way throughout Judea, trying to rally support for the war against Rome. At this point, the elect (144,000 sealed) fled Judea as Jesus told them to (Luke 21:20-21) and brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. That is the significance of the seven churches of Asia-Minor: They were the places the elect fled to. So the messages to the seven churches were messages to the elect and those that came to believe in Jesus because of them. Notice that in Revelation 1:3, John says: "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." What was about to happen was that Judea was going to go to war with Rome. John was given these messages on Patmos Island to send out to the disciples at the seven churches encouraging them to obey Christ's commands (despite Judaizers) and hold to the testimony of Jesus' salvation (despite Caesar.) The end of the Jewish nation was at hand, and the elect needed to know about it and to be prepared to be persecuted for not joining along. At the same time, the Times of the Gentiles were at hand, so the newer converts needed to know what they would face in the future for their faith (Revelation 12:17, chapter 13.) That's my take on it.

I can't. Revelation 17 shows the woman riding on a beast. Up to chapter 17, there has been no indication that Jerusalem is associated with any beast. Furthermore, Babylon isn't mentioned until after the beast is described, indicating that the woman is in regards to Gentile kingdoms, rather than a Jewish one.

I would like to point out that Daniel 11 is focused on kings that would rule Jerusalem. Control over Jerusalem went from Persia to Greece. From Greece, the control went to Egypt first (king of the South) then Syria (king of the North.) Focusing still on Jerusalem, we see that, after Antiochus IV, the Romans began to hit the scene. They took over Jerusalem not long after Syria lost control and gave the kingship to Herod. Herod died in Jerusalem not long after Jesus, the true king, came. Herod's rule (through his seed) lasted until Jerusalem was handed over to be destroyed (the great trial that caused Michael to stand up.)

Hi joi, I'm new here, but I wanted to offer a slightly modified view from what retro offered. Retro says that the 'he' of vs. 27 cannot be the prince that shall come. But I ask this question: "Where in Daniel 9 did it mentioned anyone other than the Messiah before that?" In Retro's case, Daniel just forces in a character that was not previously described to him as though he understood quite well who it was. In the case of my argument, the Messiah is the prince who shall come. And I will defend that argument. To start, I want to offer up Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14. "And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast." But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, "The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find." And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, "Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?" And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, "Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:1-14 ESV)" Notice in the passage that the king, whom is obviously God, sends HIS troops to destroy the city, which is obviously Jerusalem. Then every other nation and city is invited to the wedding feast, which is the kingdom of God; or the Abrahamic Covenant. I want to bring up another parable: ""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:33-36, 38-45 ESV) In a nutshell, Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was going to be taken away from the Jews and be given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles would be blessed because of His servants. So, the Romans were the people of the Messiah. I know it sounds outrageous, but its true. In the Middle East, when a king such as Nebuchadnezzar would set his image or ensign in a place he conquered, it meant that the dominion belonged to him. In the same way, when the first disciples were persecuted, they established churches in every place they fled to. This was Jesus setting up His ensign. This is even confirmed in Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..." So every nation that the church was established became the nation of God and His Son. But it was not so with Jerusalem. Jesus said to His disciples: "You are the salt of the earth. If the earth loses its saltiness, what good is it but to be trampled underfoot?" So, like when Sodom was only destroyed after Lot fled, Jerusalem was destroyed only after the disciples fled. And one more thing about the seventieth week: The covenant that Jesus confirmed with many was the Abrahamic Covenant. And the many were the Gentiles. That is consistent in the parables and all throughout the Gospel. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would make Abraham's seed countless. In Revelation 7:9-10, we see that was fulfilled among the Gentiles. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would bless all families of the earth through him, and we find that fulfilled to this day among the many nations that are blessed because of the saints among the Gentiles. "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." (Romans 10:12 ESV) I know this post has been long. I just wanted to adequately defend my argument. Daniel 9:26 shows that the Messiah would be rejected and that God would send the Romans to destroy the city and sanctuary, which was fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 indicates that the Messiah would take the Abrahamic Covenant away from many of the Jews and give it to the Gentiles. That happened when the disciples were chased out of Jerusalem. From that point on, Jerusalem had 3.5 years left. During that time, Jerusalem would become a beacon for every wicked criminal, which Flavius Josephus records was fulfilled with John of Gischala. The war on Jerusalem lasted from 66 CE to 70 CE, approximately 3.5 years.