Knowingtruth

Please go to another thread of mine "" in the same section for further discussions on this issue.

In that case, shall I presume that you would like to go back to building a temple followed by sacrifices, rituals and observing old feasts?

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment. Everything cannot be provided through Scripture that is limited.(John 21:25) Many were lost and destroyed before Canon was decided. For that main reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to discern the truth even though Scripture existed at that time.

My thrust of the topic is that the speaking in unknown tongue requiring interpretation has ceased. I believe in all other gifts of the Spirit listed by Paul. What is more, there are gifts available that are not specifically listed. Speaking in known language may have continued though I have not witnessed that! Again, you cannot pray in the Spirit. You can pray in your spirit helped by the Holy Spirit. This is a major problem in understanding of many! That is the reason I have started another thread in the same group "Who is groaning? Understanding Romans 8:26." Did Paul go after the snake to test his faith? Why one should be forced to speak in unknown tongue with the beating of the drums and shouting by others? Should one prove his faith by speaking in unknown tongue after baptism? There are more instances in the Bible wherein people did not speak in tongue after baptism, that includes Paul also!

This is what I heard from another person who attended a church inside a building. When they are limited and done with reverence it is OK. It cannot become a ritual which Jesus objected.(Matthew 6:5-7) How can you have problem in the latter type of churches?

Epistles are to be applied to us considering the context. What is important he has repeated. What was not found he has not explicitly mentioned. Paul was at Corinth for one and half years and many were baptized during his presence. No speaking of unknown tongue was observed. There is one and only absolute truth. If you believe in different interpretations and accept them all, I think, you are going off track!

No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated! I could make the same claim concerning the way you come up with your doctrine. You don't like something, so you claim it means something other than what scripture actually says. If I did that throughout the Word of God, I certainly could come up with strange doctrines. Where it says that God so loved the World, I could simply say it really means he hated the world, or that world means the planet and not the human race. I have no reason to accept anything you have said, because in some cases it contradicts the plain meaning of the text, and in others, you simply can't prove your point. It is nothing but theories you have devised in your own mind, like the notion Paul was discouraging speaking in tongues, when he did no such thing. The answer is very simple. Paul desired greater gifts to be sought! (1 Corinthians 12:31)

Sounds like you are trying to say that a spirit, that you take to be the Holy Spirit, is leading you in a manner that does not involve actually sequentially reading or studying the Bible. Apparently, this method of isolating passages out of sequence and context has led you to deny the supernatural working of God in the lives of believers and has led you to believe that you should share your findings, as you have done, in threads you have started. Thank you for explaining how you come to the conclusions that you have represented in this forum. Well, let's take a closer look at your motives...as you have expressed them The worst conditions in Corinth was the tolerance of grevious sin. Did you miss that? Here it is: It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! (I Cor 5) So, it is actually sexual immorality and pride that is behind the that letter...as far as the meetings went, Paul gave instruction on how to keep things orderly and said FORBID NOT TO SPEAK IN TONGUES. However, you believe, that a spirit has told you to say the opposite of what Paul wrote. See, I am calling it 'a' spirit, because the Holy Spirit would not ever say the opposite of what scripture states. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is very fundamental to believers. The world is full of demonic strongholds and evil attitudes. Without the restraint of the Spirit of God, we would all be overtaken and the world would be destroyed...which will ultimately happen when God removes His hand and allows and brings the final curtain down on the blue planet. What you are actually presenting, is a form of godliness. You are denying the power of God both at work in the lives of believers and as protection against the power of the devil that is at work in the world. I am sorry you have been persuaded by unbelief. I pray God opens your eyes and blesses you in ways that up to now, you have so far refused. The trouble is people are not differentiating between person's 'spirit' and the 'Spirit'. Even when shown, they turn a deaf ear and cannot see! They think even the personal prayer addressed to God by their spiritis are going to be interrupted by the groans of the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is not at the beck and call of people to work for them for what is their relationship with God. That reminds of a joke: A guy inserted a coin onto a vending machine for coke. The empty cup did not drop down because of some fault in the mechanism. The coke poured down only to be drained out of the pipe in the machine. The frustrated guy exclaims, "Wow, this machine even drinks for you!"

No wonder thousands of denominations have sprung up at nooks and corners of the world! A kind of Babel condition imposed by God for the deviated!

Please note that there is a separate gift of healing that may have nothing to do with speaking in tongue Corinthian way. I believe this gift has ceased, and I believe a person who claims that is misled. I have nothing to do with such deeds. Healing is observed in other religions also. I flatly refused such helps in my life waiting for the Lord to heal with our own prayers. He has healed in His own time. It depends on the emotional mindset of a person. For example, one may derive lot of pleasure in basket ball game over foot ball. Black people are normally more emotional than people of other races(This is not to insult them) So you find emotionally charged atmosphere even in their Baptist churches. I prefer order and discipline with reverance and self-control when it comes to worshipping God. Praise God for the blessed work! What I mean to say is that the spiritual gifts do not bring salavation. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does . That is why Paul finally recommends the best part of the fruit, namely, love. Also, note that Jesus did not go to heal Lazarus who was sick. He went there after he was dead to show greater marvel and authority of God! (John 11:1-11) The final word on how we pray and worship are clearly enumerated by Jesus. That superseeds any other verses in the Bible if they are not read in conformity of Jesus Christ's sayings. They are: for personal prayer:Matthew 6:5-8. For congregational prayer: exhibiting self control--the fruit of the Spirit. Do you think God will hear only those who have strong vocal chords or those having physical stamina to do acrobatics? Who on earth ever said that? Not I! I enjoy all the various forms of worship and praise. I love Orthodox liturgies, and have attended Presbyterian and Nazarene churches at different times. We did not mention praying specifically in our discussion, but you are right, these two are the only two Biblical forms of prayer (tongues falling into the 1st category). However, I would rather cheer God or give Him my applause when He does something wonderful than praise some football player or entertainer. I love to vocalize my thanks and sing to Him and about Him. I am not ashamed to clap or raise Holy hands as Paul says. What is objectionable is act of overdoing! When we attended a Pentecostal church near by, my wife was upset by the way they were clapping and raising their voices that were prompting her to close her ears with hands or use eardrums! There are degrees of differences in Pentecostal churches! Police have been called for their unbearable noise in the neighborhood. Any act inside the church should generate reverence towards of God. But congregation takes over! Pity!

Thanks

]Your interpretation is wrong, as it is contrary to what the verse in Romans says. Lets examine it closely. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26,27 The passage itself tells us it is the Holy Spirit who is making intercession with groanings. To accept what you said, I have to reject what the scripture itself says. When in doubt, it is better to look for other sources in the Scripture to get clarification. There is no source in the entire Bible to indicate that the Holy Spirit groans or prays on behalf of a person in his prayerful address to God.One cannot build a castle of theology on a single small stone piece!

I do not read the scripture per se, but by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Scripture was there as a matter of fact before Jesus Christ. Yet, He sent the Holy Spirit to help us in discerning the truth. There can be only one truth. It is my concern to prevent people from looking back and bring back the worst conditons of Corinth now. That is the fundamental belief of a true believers, not all kinds of developments and assumptions based on carnal mindset. Me too!

Please read the sermon of C.H. Spurgeon, you will get all the answers you're looking for: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1532.htm Thank you for posting this link. I have gone through that, and he basically endorses my opinion I believe underlined. Here are the excerpts:

Please note that there is a separate gift of healing that may have nothing to do with speaking in tongue Corinthian way. I believe this gift has ceased, and I believe a person who claims that is misled. I have nothing to do with such deeds. Healing is observed in other religions also. I flatly refused such helps in my life waiting for the Lord to heal with our own prayers. He has healed in His own time. It depends on the emotional mindset of a person. For example, one may derive lot of pleasure in basket ball game over foot ball. Black people are normally more emotional than people of other races(This is not to insult them) So you find emotionally charged atmosphere even in their Baptist churches. I prefer order and discipline with reverance and self-control when it comes to worshipping God. Praise God for the blessed work! What I mean to say is that the spiritual gifts do not bring salavation. It is the fruit of the Spirit that does . That is why Paul finally recommends the best part of the fruit, namely, love. Also, note that Jesus did not go to heal Lazarus who was sick. He went there after he was dead to show greater marvel and authority of God! (John 11:1-11) The final word on how we pray and worship are clearly enumerated by Jesus. That supersedes any other verses in the Bible if they are not read in conformity of Jesus Christ's sayings. They are: for personal prayer:Matthew 6:5-8. For congregational prayer: exhibiting self control--the fruit of the Spirit. Do you think God will hear only those who have strong vocal chords or those having physical stamina to do acrobatics?

Please note that there is a separate gift of healing that may have nothing to do with speaking in tongue Corinthian way. I believe this gift has ceased, and I believe a person who claims that is misled. I have nothing to do with such deeds. Healing is observed in other religions also. I flatly refused such helps in my life waiting for the Lord to heal with our own prayers. He has healed in His own time. It depends on the emotional mindset of a person. For example, one may derive lot of pleasure in basket ball game over foot ball. Black people, I think, are normally more emotional than people of other races(This is not to insult them) So you find emotionally charged atmosphere even in their Baptist churches. I prefer order and discipline with reverance and self-control when it comes to worshipping God.

A few people seem to interpret this verse as the Holy Spirit groaning on their behalf in their prayers to God. I cannot accept this because mortal men can make the Holy Spirit to grieve by their wickedness. The Holy Spirit can make a person to utter His words.But no person can make the Holy Spirit to groan. Can we order anything to the Holy Spirit? To understand this we need to look at the preceeding verses in the same chapter, 22 & 23. In these Paul speaks of the whole creation groaning and including ourselves. Therefore, basically people who are praying to God may groan with anxiety or worries too deep to express in words! When they do that, the Holy Spirit will understand what goes on in their mind and heart and intercedes on their behalf to explain that to God. It our personal relationship and responsibility with God. Paul also indicates that in 2 Corithians 5:4 that is we who groan. Some additional verses that could be considered are: Exodus 2:24; Psalm 5:1. Paul also says in 1 Corinthians that it is his spirit that prays to God in an unknown tongue so also others: 1 Corinthians 14:2 & 14

Should elders be practicing speaking in unknown language? Do you think their prayers in tongue will be more effective? No such thing can be construed from the above verses! By the way, it is not the Corinthian tongue Mark is recording. It is known new tongue. Certainly, I will not admit anybody bringing a serpent along with him for my healing!

If you do not consider the context and understand the spirit behind the epistles, our application of them for us may run wild! Going by the same logic, I can point out that Paul never wrote to us! He only addressed the problems there. It is the Holy Spirit that should lead to our understanding of the Bible to base our beliefs on. I have seen others testifying that the interpretation was not in conformity with the word of God. They have also quoted cases where different interpretations were given for the same tongue. What kind of a proof you have to check that the interpretation made was correct?

Please note that there is a separate gift of healing that may have nothing to do with speaking in tongue Corinthian way. I believe this gift has ceased, and I believe a person who claims that is misled. I have nothing to do with such deeds. Healing is observed in other religions also. I flatly refused such helps in my life waiting for the Lord to heal with our own prayers. He has healed in His own time. It depends on the emotional mindset of a person. For example, one may derive lot of pleasure in basket ball game over foot ball. Black people, I think, are normally more emotional than people of other races(This is not to insult them) So you find emotionally and lively charged atmosphere even in their Baptist, Methodist and other denominational churches. I prefer order and discipline with reverance and self-control when it comes to worshipping God.

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment. Paul never discouraged speaking in tongues. He only told them to do things in an orderly fashion. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:18, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all." The issue is doing things in order. Moving down to verses 27 and 28, it says, If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church: and let him speak to himself and to God. This is not discouraging people from speaking in tongues. I hope this will answer your observations: 1 Corinthians 14:1 Paul was crafty and pramatic to attend to problem based on the reports he had received from people for and against the undesirable activities in Corinth. He showed a solution in interpretion, but knew it would cease when people grew spiritually. He did not apply brake suddenly. That would cause damage. So also preferred continuation of speaking in unknown language with people who had developed that trait.

I think you are misreading me. I am not disputing anything you have written above. There are two aspects in speaking in tongue: use of existing foreign language that is unknown to the speaker but understood by others, and the second one that was observed in Corinth that of unknown language that required an interpreter. These two people tend to mix up and cause confusion. I am referring to the second one in my thread. Yes, this is all with regard to known language given utterance by the Holy Spirit. This brings the difference. It was speaking of unknown tongue that Paul did not prefer. This did cease as they were asked to prefer prophesying; It has continued.

Hi Paul, Please refer to my in connection with this posting since the earlier ones got messed up.

This is not related to speaking in unknown tongue observed in Corinth that required interpretation

The very fact that Paul discouraged that type of practice, and his subsequent letters indicated in the OP do not include them along with the entire Bible are very good proof that it was a local phenomenon observed in the notorious Corinth! He also hints at its ceasing--when, a matter of discerment.