Knowingtruth

6 hours ago, Yowm said:

Going to church...fine, being baptised...fine, claiming to be a believer...fine, question is have you been born again? Has the love for Jesus been shed abroad in your heart? Are your eyes being  opened to the Truths of Scripture?

I think I am born from above. I don't like the usage born-again. That is why I see the truths and capable of filtering out the contradictions in writings against Jesus' way.

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Sorry, but you don't appear to even believe Jesus' words.  You may claim to, but your posts don't reflect the attitude of a true follower of Jesus.

God in His great wisdom has given not just one but four books on the preaching of Jesus for understanding Jesus from four different directions, so to say. I am not a follower of Jesus since I don't fit into His definition of a disciple. I still don't have the courage to give up all and follow Him. I am just an humble believer.

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The canon always existed.  The Church did not decide what the canon would be.  The correct books for the canon were discovered by the Church.  

But why should that matter you?  You don't believe the Bible, anyway.

God is infinite. He cannot be limited by man-made compilation of certain books.

10 hours ago, Davida said:

It is puzzling because you hold an attitude of disbelief and hostility towards much of the Bible for someone who was baptized. Did the Pastor who baptized you know of these opinions?

I was baptized in 1987 on Easter Sunday. That pastor is no longer with the church. Now I attend a different church (non-denominational). I have been highly critical of practices of the church, and my articles are being published in their Christian monthly Newsletter. I admire their openness on this account.  I have published three books on my studies.

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

Yet he wrote His words in the Gospel, which you discounted (Even though your own words were "Luke can be trusted more than Paul). And in discounting Acts and the Gospel of Luke, you also discount the rest of scripture.

Either all of the Bible is God's word or none of it.

Choose.

That is your generalized assumption. My yardstick is Jesus' words.

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

The Bible says that all Scripture is inspired by God.  The Holy Spirit is the one who guided the authors of the New Testament.   The teachings of Paul compliment and are based on teachings of Jesus.  All of the New Testament is God's word.   A person who rejects the New Testament cannot claim to be a follower of Jesus.

The canon came into existence several centuries after Jesus' resurrection. So according  to you, all those early believers and disciples go to hell then!

8 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Me

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this,
make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

He writes the same way in all his letters,
speaking in them of these matters.

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
which ignorant and unstable people distort,
as they do the other Scriptures,
to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:14-16 (New International)Version

Too

I have come in My Father's name, and you have not received Me;
but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. John 5:43 (Berean Study Bible)

The  word 'God' inserted by modern translators. Here is KJV: 2 Peter 3: 15    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

People don't receive Jesus and His words, instead they want to receive Paul who came up with his own title of apostleship because his epistles help in fabricating convenient concepts.

11 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Dear One,

If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them." Luke 9:5 (New International Version)

I Believe The Holy Spirit, A Beloved Insider

Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.

And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things.

“And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as my Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven.” Luke 24:45-49

And The First Testament Of Jesus (OT)

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift up my hand to heaven and swear, As I live forever,

if I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and will repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh — with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired Heads of the enemy.’

“Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people’s land.” Deuteronomy 32:39-43 (English Standard Version)

And The Second Testament (NT)

After this I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude in heaven, shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God! For His judgments are true and righteous; He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, He has avenged the blood of His servants that was poured out by her hand.”

And a second time they called out: “Hallelujah! Her smoke ascends forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne, saying: “Amen, Hallelujah!”

Then a voice came from the throne, saying: “Praise our God, all you who serve Him, and those who fear Him, small and great alike!” Revelation 19:1-5 (Berean Study Bible)

So Why Can't You

For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world that he would condemn the world, but that he would give life to the world by him.

Whoever believes in him is not judged, and whoever does not believe is judged already, because he does not believe in The Name of The Only Begotten Son of God.

This is the judgment: The Light has come into the world and the children of men loved the darkness more than The Light, because their works were evil. For everyone who does what is hateful, hates The Light and does not come to The Light, lest his works should be convicted.

But he who does The Truth comes to The Light, so that his works may be revealed, that they are performed by God." John 3:16-21 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

Believe

~

Be Blessed

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 (New American Standard Bible)

Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Praying~!

LORD Jesus Bind The Mind Blinder
And Free The Islamic
And The Jew

For You Are Our Only Hope

I Love You LORD
I Love You

 ~

All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal. Psalms 119:160 (New International Version)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.
It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

 From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

What if some writings contradict what Jesus taught? 

12 hours ago, Davida said:

 A "believer" can mean different things to some.  Do you actually call yourself a Christian?  Do you attend Church?  Who lead you to Christ? 

..because I know Muslims, Buddhists and  Hindus that can say they "believe in Jesus" i.e. that Jesus existed and they "believe" what they think he said-but they do not call themselves Christians.

Yes, more than being called a Christian, I claim myself to be a believer in Jesus Christ. I have taken adult immersion baptism in a Baptist church. Right now I am attending a non-denominational church.

14 hours ago, RobertS said:

Ah, so now Luke's account in Acts is not good enough? First Paul's own words, then Peter's and now Luke's? And Luke wrote the Gospel of Luke, but while His gospel and Jesus' words in it are good enough, the Book of Acts is not?

All you are doing is "moving the goalposts"; every time proof is given to you, you discount it and continue to claim no one can meet your challenge.

 

So, let's follow this "rabbit hole" to its' logical conclusion, and see where it leads us...

 

If you discount Acts, then you must discount Luke's gospel, as neither can be relied upon. Matthew was a tax collector, which was considered a traitor by the Jews; since he was considered worse than a Gentile, you must also discount his account as well.

Now we are down to two gospels.

Mark's gospel must then be removed by your claims because it is thought to be written from information from the Apostle Peter (whom you discounted already), so the Gospel of Mark goes! Now we have ONE gospel: John's. And now we must discount that one (along with his 3 letters and Revelation) due to the fact that there has been question raised about the authorship of the Gospel of John, which would cast doubt on the rest of his works.

No one can be sure of Hebrews because the author isn't listed, and since they are not "Jesus' words" that falls by the wayside, as does the Book of Jude.

 

So, in claiming Luke isn't good enough, you've successively removed book after book until there is nothing left of the New Testament.  You claim to "believe in Jesus' words?" And since Jesus' words aren't recorded in the OT (after all, John said Jesus was the Son of God and God, but John's work was discounted), you throw out the entire OT as well.

 

You end up removing every one, but it doesn't end there...

 

Since the whole Bible is now discounted and cannot be regarded as His word (it's been taken completely apart under your premise that Paul and Luke's words are not trustworthy), that also means the Qur'an cannot be relied upon either. Muhammad is said in the Qur'an to be illiterate:

"Surah 7:157: "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures), - in the law and the Gospel..."

That being the case, then the Qur'an could not have been written by him (who knows then who it's written by?)and thus is also unreliable, which eliminates Islam as a possibility. This also applies to Buddhism, as Buddha's words were only recorded after he died, as well as Hinduism, whose holy books (The Vedas), are said to have no author. So they cannot be trusted either and must also be discarded. Additionally, Taoism must then also be discarded, as the Tao Te Ching (Tao Holy Text) has dispute over who truly wrote it, and thus it cannot be relied upon.  Neither can Confucius' five texts "The Book of History," "The Book of Poetry," "The Book of Changes," "The Book of Rites," and the "Spring and Autumn Annals." due to the fact that they cannot be confirmed to have been written by Confucius either.

Since Judaism is based on the OT, that has to go with the others as well.

 

So now we're in the land of atheism (seeing as moving the goalposts has disqualified all the texts). We can only go by our 5 senses...or can we?

Sight has been proven to be unreliable (illusions, mirages, visual tricks and distortions), so we cannot trust our eyes.

Hearing also is unreliable, as it can be manipulated and distorted (sound effects in movies, echoes, the sound of jets following far after the planes,audio illusions etc.), so we cannot rely on that sense.

Taste can be manipulated chemically, as can the sense of Smell (done all the time in the Food Industry), so those two are off the list.

So, we are left with Touch; that can be fooled with "tactile illusions" (example: wearing a hat for a long time and taking it off, only to feel like you're still wearing it). So Touch is not reliable either and is disqualified.

 

The physical world is now discounted in its' entirely, as all the input that says it exists have been ruled out along the same guidelines previously used.

 

Continuing on, all you have left now is your mind. But, since we discounted the Bible, we also discounted the idea that we have a soul and spirit. That leaves us as only existing in our brains. But since we cannot trust now our 5 senses either, we do not know if we exist in any sense (physical or otherwise), or are just a figment in someone else's imagination. We have no standard now for our thoughts being our own, as for all we know, we might be someone's imagined "character" or even a simulated algorithm in some alien machine...

 

We cannot prove any of it; all means for doing so have been discredited, and we now are left with nothing.

 

All of that, just to get rid of Paul.

 

While all of this has been taken to the absurd extreme, it demonstrates what happens when you keep "moving the goalposts"; after a while, nothing becomes good enough. In this case, the "goalposts' ended up moving on their own down an ever-increasing slope until all reality unraveled. And that is the danger in not accepting the words of Scripture: where do you stop? What is "good enough" and what is not?

There are better reasons for discounting the other "holy texts" that are written, and at some point, we have to accept that the physical world and ourselves exist. And when examined and pout to the test, we accept that Scripture is the One true word of God and not able to be picked to pieces and re-arranged at our leisure. With that said: if you accept the OT, then you have to accept the NT. If you accept the 4 Gospels, then you also must accept Acts. If you accept Acts, then you accept that Luke called Paul an Apostle, and therefore the Pauline Epistles are also legitimate.

Scripture is not a piecemeal thing we can discount when parts do not meet our approval: we take all of it, or none of it. It serves as a mirror that reflects us as we truly are, and if we do not like what it says, it is not up to us to judge Scripture...

 

...it is we who are being judged by Scripture. All of Scripture is the word of God, and Jesus Christ is God and the Son of God.

 

 

The whole Bible is His story....

 

 

 

 

 

I don't discard any writings including apocryphal. We need to rely on the Holy Spirit who will remind of Jesus' words no matter who wrote it.

17 hours ago, Yowm said:

I believe this violates the TOS of this site...

No “spamming” allowed. Spamming is flooding the forums, mass PMs or emailing multiple members of this forum with unsolicited messages. It also includes links in posts or Sigs to sites that sell or solicits funds. No solicitation of any form will be allowed.

Sorry, for that. I will be careful henceforth

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Does Paul teach against something Jesus said?  Does Paul or Luke contradict Jesus.

The Bible is 100% inspired by God, including all of the NT and God used Paul and Luke to write a significant portion of the New Testament. So why would God choose to use them if they are false?

It is news for me. Jesus never chose anybody to write. Instead, He sent the Holy Spirit to remind of His preaching. So if there are any writings, they should complement what Jesus taught. 

23 minutes ago, Davida said:

Book--schmook!    Can't tell how you came to believe?

In short, I believe in the way I found Him.

22 minutes ago, Davida said:

Jesus Fulfills the Law

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think by cherry-picking scripture, you are doing exactly the same as the Scribes and Pharisees that Jesus rebuked ,since you are misinformed & reject everything the Father in heaven has given us in the Bible and put your own interpretation on it, you are acting just as blindly.  You cannot pull out Jesus from the Word of God & actually know Him in full. The entire Bible is God given for our instruction in truth.  

God's Word is Living and Active
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…

I'm afraid you are choosing to live merely by a personal philosophy "in" JESUS.

You are proving that you rather believe rank outsiders than Jesus and His chosen apostles.

2 hours ago, other one said:

Then I guess you disagree with Luke.... do you disregard all his writings?

I ask the same question. You disregard Jesus and His call. Luke cannot offer you salvation. 

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

1. First of all when Paul said he was speaking and that what he said did not come from a commandment of the Lord, what he was referring to was the words of Jesus in the Gopels.  The Gospels were already in existence and were in circulation during Paul's ministry.   The Corinthian church was asking Paul questions and Paul was referring to the Gospels for his answers, but they were asking questions about issues that Jesus did not address in the Gospel.   Paul was still under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and he admitted that Jesus had not, during His earthly ministry addressed the specific issues that the Corinthians had raised.  

2.  Peter did not say Paul wrote according to his own wisdom.  That is just a made up lie.

3. Peter said that Paul's words are scriptures that false teachers pervert to their own destruction.

1) Why such statements have not been made by the chosen apostles? What did Paul train Corinthians when he was there for nearly one and a half years. Did he not even the explain the significance of the communion? What was he observing during his stay there for such a long duration? Why writing from another place on some strange observation, like, speaking in unknown tongue? So Paul was giving instructions on matters unrelated spiritual aspects? If they had been that important Jesus certainly would have spoken on that.

2) So you deny what has been recorded by Peter?
2 Peter 3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

3) Peter never said that Paul's is scripture. That is your interpretation-logic.

6 hours ago, RobertS said:

That's why I quoted Luke: since Luke is also a Gospel writer, his calling Paul an apostle in Acts cannot be discounted.

Who do you believe? Jesus or a rank outsider and a Gentile, Luke?

1 hour ago, hmbld said:

Since all Scripture was given by Jesus (the Word), I would disagree that Jesus did not call Paul to be an apostle:

1 Cor 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

Romans 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Ephesians 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

Self-claims cannot be a proof for acceptance. Canon is man-made.

1 hour ago, Davida said:

How did you come to this belief? What is your personal story of finding Jesus?

It is a long story. I have published a book, "Why I am A Believer In Jesus" available with amazon.com

2 hours ago, Yowm said:

Keep in mind, apostle means 'sent one' and the Holy Spirit is directly doing the sending...

Acts 13:2-4 KJVS
[2] As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. [3] And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. [4] So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

 

They were not sent as apostles.

1 hour ago, other one said:

I would disagree with that....    the 11 decided on their own to draw lots for someone to replace Judas, and I say that Jesus picked Paul to replace him by picking Paul the way he did.

Peter explains the reason to fill up the vacant apostleship with the death of Judas. Remember Jesus had given them the Holy Spirit even before the Pentecost for continuing with His ministry in His physical absence. Sure, Jesus picked up Paul as a chosen vessel, not as apostle.

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Okay, but what about the rest of the New Testament?   Do you see the rest of the New Testament as God's word and just as important as the Gospel accounts of Jesus and His words?

Paul indicates in some places that it is his concession and not a commandment of the Lord. Peter wrote that Paul wrote according to his wisdom. Who, meanwhile, accepted all of the NT is God's words? Jesus' words are of paramount importance. I accept all writings that complement Lord's preaching.

4 hours ago, RobertS said:

Luke's account in Acts calls Paul an apostle:

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM. " (Acts 14:14-15, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

The Greek word used for "apostle" in that verse is apostoloi,  which is where we get the word "apostle" from; it means " one sent on a mission, an apostle" (Strong's 652). And it says "apostles" in all the translations of scripture (NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, ASV, KJ2K, NLT, ESV etc.). You can see for yourself: http://biblehub.com/acts/14-14.htm

 

Now, let's take a look at Revelation 2:2, which is what you're probably referring to:

" I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false" (Revelation 2:2, NASB, emphasis mine)

This makes not even the slightest reference to "anyone outside the 12; John was describing that there had been those claiming to be apostles, but were not. it's a considerable stretch from "call themselves apostles, but were not", to "anyone outside the 12 are fakes". Acts records Paul's calling, calls him an Apostle, Peter calls him an apostle, the council at Jerusalem did not refute his apostleship, and nowhere in scripture in any book, Pauline or otherwise, is Paul ever discounted as an apostle or ever regarded but as an apostle. The thing is though: denigrating Paul's authority as an apostle is a common tactic Muslims use to try to wedge Islam in as an "authentic" religion. In this case, attempting to "shoehorn" it into place with the gospels and removing Paul's "pesky" letters. But in the Qur'an, Surah 61:14 says:

"O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed." (Qur'an, Surah 61:14)

On that note: the respected Islamic commentator Al-Qurtubi grants the apostleship of Paul while commenting on Surah 61:14:

“It was said that this verse was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter and Paul who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos(?) which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas(?) who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.”( Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, 61:14 )

 

Now, I want to address another accusation that I'm sure will probably come up, and before we go down the "Ebionite" road, let's cut that one off at the pass. For those who do not know: this is a tactic used by Muslims to discredit Paul. Their supposed "point is that a sect called the "Ebionites" that rejected Paul and claimed that they were "sanctioned by the Apostle James". But one problem is that the Ebionites held to various heresies that discount their credibility; in particular, there is one that is recorded by Origen in his work Against Celsus (248 AD). Here, we find out that multiple sects of Ebionites existed at the time, and many of those  took to  denying Jesus' virgin birth: “… the twofold sect of Ebionites, who either acknowledge with us that Jesus was born of a virgin, or deny this, and maintain that He was begotten like other human beings.”( Origen, Against Celsus, Book 5, Ch. 61 ). This, along with another heresy claiming that Jesus "came as Adam" casts a considerable amount of doubt on their credibility on anything, let alone the apostolic authority of Paul. But then we discover what they actually said about him; Epiphanius records the charge they leveled against Paul:

"[The Ebionites] declare that he [Paul] was a Greek [...] He went up to Jerusalem, they say, and when he had spent some time there, he was seized with a passion to marry the daughter of the priest. For this reason he became a proselyte and was circumcised. Then, when he failed to get the girl, he flew into a rage and wrote against circumcision and against the sabbath and the Law." ( Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion, 30.16.6-9 )

We begin to see a smear campaign is in effect against Paul by the Ebionites.

While it was reported in the 4^th century by Epiphanius, the claim originated in an earlier piece written by the Ebionite, named The Ascents of James. Said piece was dated to between 150-200 AD by Dr. Georg Strecker and Dr. Robert Van Voorst, placing their accusation well past Paul's lifetime and out of serious consideration for modern scholarship. To make matters worse, they confirmed it as having been written in Pella (Northwest Jordan, about 17 miles south of the Sea of Galilee), which was completely south of Paul's operating area. Backing the research done by the good doctors, authors Bruce Chilton and Jacob Neusner note in their book The Brother of Jesus: James the Just and his Mission, that Dr. Strecker's and Dr.Van Voorst's findings are the “consensus view on the date and place of origin of the Ascents…” (Bruce Chilton and Jacob Neusner, The Brother of Jesus: James the Just and his Mission, 2001, p. 37 ). This indicates that the no one with any credentials in the field has reason to believe that the Ebionite work was written during Paul's lifetime.

Lastly, the Ebionites were not above even altering scripture, going so far as to alter the Gospel of Mark to suit their twisted views, as Epiphanius reports: "“And the Lord himself says, ‘Go ye into the city, and ye shall find a man bearing a pitcher of water and ye shall follow whithersoever he goeth, and say ye to the Goodman of the house, Where is the guest-chamber, where I shall keep the Passover with my disciples? And he shall show you an upper room furnished; there make ready.’ But the Lord says in turn, ‘With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you.’ And he said, ‘this Passover,’ not simply ‘Passover,” so that no one would practice it in accordance with his own notion. Passover, as I said, was roast meat and the rest. But of their own will these people have lost sight of the consequence of the truth, and have altered the wording-which is evident to everyone from the sayings associated with it-and made the disciples say, ‘Where wilt thou that we prepare for three to eat the Passover?’ And the Lord, if you please, says, ‘Have I desired meat with desire, to eat this Passover with you?’”" ( Mark 14:12-15, altered version, Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion, 30. 22. 1-4 emphasis mine )

 

So, we can see here that scripture confirms Paul's status as an Apostle; his own letters confirm his apostleship, Peter confirms it as well, and even the Qur'an and it's early commentators do so as well. As for any accusations of Paul's character or apostleship, the Ebionite charge falls flat by the wayside.

 

 

Luke cannot be a person to endorse the apostleship of Paul. Both Paul and Luke were rank outsiders of Jesus' ministry. Both never knew the purpose of picking up only twelve out of several disciples by Jesus. Peter or any other apostle never called Paul an apostle. That is your assumption. Apostleship is not based on secular dictionary definition. No wonder all kinds of Tom, Dick and Harry are calling themselves as apostles nowadays! Your argument to defend Paul cost amounts to questioning the wisdom of the Lord in choosing only twelve since there were only twelve tribes.

Islamic commentator Al-Qurtubi puts Paul along with other apostles under the category of apostles and disciples. He doesn't recognize Paul as an apostle exclusively. Paul was definitely a disciple of Jesus and a chosen vessel. John indicates there are only twelve foundations of apostles in heaven. Where does Paul sit? On the lap of Peter?

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

On 4/27/2015 at 4:35 AM, missmuffet said:

On 4/27/2015 at 4:35 AM, missmuffet said:

Nice one!

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

So are you a Christian or a Muslim?

I am a believer in Jesus Christ and His words.