jerryR34

======================================================================== Jerry are you the Punctuation Police ?? Don't chase Organic Medicine off I'm usually not a grammar-nazi, but...come on...ok...sorry Organic...

irrelevant, unrelated, and scientifically inconsequential to our discussion. Yes....for Satan. Science does not care about satan either.

===================================================================================================== Jerry, Re-Read the OP, I Outlined what the "Alternative" is. YES. But that's not gonna happen. The Big Bang will not be undone: SEE Satan Discussion with LFA. Enoch is it not God who 'blinds' those who chose do not believe in Him,and love Him,so that what is obvious to the enlightened,is not to those who do not have the gift oooof the Holy Spirit ? Perhaps you can help me with the bible here,as I would need to look it up on the net. I can help with grammar. Single space after commas.

We have different definitions of what "science" is. I'm only trying to bring the Fallacious "Science" House of Cards down....you know the one: the One that says there is NO GOD. Science does not care about God - science is a tool like a wrench. Science is what can be observed. If humans want to quibble over what humans don't understand, it does not change sceince, but we do know the corona is hotter than the photosphere, and we will probably know why eventually just like all the other "mysteries" we've found out that haven't disproved God. That's what it is supposed to be....but it's not. Please review Ad Hoc Hypothesis in depth. No, it is not applicable here. What does this mean? It means you are answers without question.

=============================================================================== First IMHO....go back and re-read the OP slowly and look @ The Lists of Evidences and Their Support. 2nd Before you post....calm down and focus. I'm saying it Violates 2LOT........which it most certainly does. I'm very calm, this forum does not affect me personally at all. Not sure where that is coming from. If you think the corona being hotter than the photosphere violates the second law, then you should be disqualified from any further discussion. See my many posts as to why.

========================================================================== Listen.....there is nothing wrong with disagreements if you have a sound foundation for your opinion. Or you could just Disagree to Disagree. I think You and LFA have this same notion in your head that 'Science' is some sort of Consensus Based on agreement. In fact, it (Should Be) the exact Opposite.....Agreement/Disagreement and Opinions should be left @ the Door.....The Data are the Compelling Factors in the Matter. Then after we leave the Office.....then, we can agree/disagree about what Color or Democrats/Republicans are the Best. Follow? i leave my political affiliation at the door. Politics has no place in science. You seem to think that if science is proved wrong the whole house of cards falls. Proving failure is what science is all about. Failure drives science - that is how we learn. Science is questioning answers, religon is answers with no questions... How much further along would we be scientifically (and maybe closer to God) if we had not been stifled by religion? You are religon.

They are Non-Sequitur in TOTO and Violate 2LOT....as I have shown you. Are you saying that Venus is not hotter than Mercury? Actually this is a Non-Sequitur Strawman. All I had to do was what I did.......and it's still standing there, and smiling. Are you saying that the fact the corona has been measured to be hotter than the photosphere disproves the second law? I know you are not...so, what evidence do you have that shows the corona to be cooler than the photosphere? Or, what the heck are you saying...are you saying science can't measure the two areas of the sun - or that God can remand the second law for us? Is this thread an attempt to put the final nail in the coffin of science so that we quit explotring our universe because maybe we need to update our theories (not conceeding this regading the sun) because we only need the bible? Can you give us a summary?

haha...glad we Wow, you never give me that kind of affirmation...do I offend? ======================================================================= Now that is Hilarious, Jerry I "presumed" you were secure with yourself so I didn't feel the need ........... JUST KIDDING haha..honestly glad we can laugh together while disagreeing! World would be a better place if we all could

======================================================== Good and Very True. My argument is....That if it's a Thermo-Nuclear Reaction Driving the SUN'S Engine (as we are Told) then......this is the Exact OPPOSITE than what WE would EXPECT..... and tells us there is some other process going on. PLASMA Just because you can't imagine why the corona could be hotter than the photosphere does not mean it invalidates a theory. This is called argument from incredulity. I've given you several examples where energy can be dissipated as heat so that the temperature is higher than at the source of energy. To disprove the second law in regard to the sun, you would need to prove that the sun is giving out more energy than the mass it is consuming (hint energy <> heat). The world will await your paper. haha.

Wow, you never give me that kind of affirmation...do I offend?

=================================================================== What "scientists" believe is absolutely irrelevant. An equal statement with the same verifiability would be that scientists believe 3 toed gnomes are building a campfire in the SUN'S Core. So, how would you characterize your OP? Is that what you believe about the sun or the standard model?

=================================================================== What "scientists" believe is absolutely irrelevant. An equal statement with the same verifiability would be that scientists believe 3 toed gnomes are building a campfire in the SUN'S Core. What's Hotter than the PhotoSphere? The corona.

================================================================= Jerry, Go back and Re-read the OP slowly. You're Mercury/Venus spiel is a Strawman. You're getting confused between the evidences......Heat and Speed of Particles. Really? Are you are saying that Venus is hotter than Mercury due to particle speed? That would presume particles pick up energy the further the get from the sun? You are making no sense.

I never posted that the corona was hotter than the source (nor does any scientist believe that). I posted that it is hotter than the photosphere (which is closer to the source than the corona).

====================================================================== Lets try this: In Accordance with 2LOT: Heat Source (Hot)----------------------------------------------------------------------> Cooler Distance from Heat Source------> In Violation of 2LOT: Heat Source (Hot)---------------------------------------------------------------------> HOTTER Distance from Heat Source--------> On August 9 1945 the US dropped a HYDROGEN BOMB on Nagasaki. It was real HOT there that day.....not so much in Tokyo it was further away. The SUN (According to The Standard Model) is a BIG Hydrogen Bomb. But 3,000 KM away from the Source it's HOTTER. So, according to your example above, Mercury (57.9m miles from the sun) should be warmer than Venus (67.2m miles from the sun). Well it's not. Care to guess why? Maybe distance from the source of energy is not the only factor for heat? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the second law. The corona being hotter than the photosphere in NO WAY violates the second law anymore than Venus being hotter than Mercury does (or do you dispute that Venus is hotter than Mercury). Hopefully you can see that distance isn't the only factor in heat (temperature).

======================================================================== It's actually shocking that I would even have to....but did numerous times anyway. No, you haven't. You gave a erroneous analogy of a stove and the sun. Not sure what your point about Nagasaki is...or this whole thread for that matter. Even if what you posted is correct, it's the beauty of science...self-correcting.

============================================================================== You just read the Abstract and picked out (In Green), and then you asked what's my point?? If you kept reading, you would have got the point. I'll make it a little bigger for you..... "Within the wavenumber band ℓ < 60, convective velocities are 20–100 times weaker than current theoretical estimates. This constraint suggests the prevalence of a different paradigm of turbulence from that predicted by existing models, prompting the question: what mechanism transports the heat flux of a solar luminosity outwards?" The POINT: The Convection Thingy, Remember? Kinda Important.....and, The Same thing I've been posting to you the past three posts and one of the EVIDENCES of This SUN Fiasco highlighted in the OP No, I read the whole thing - I guess I could have copied and pasted the whole thing... You still have not given a reasonable answer as to why the corona being hotter than the photosphere violates the second law.

I read the article you linked to. Basically the gist is "convective velocities are 20–100 times weaker than current theoretical estimates". What's your point? What's the point of this thread? Are you saying that since science is attempting to update and improve its theories that the devil made them put out false information originally? Are you just attempting to impugn the scientific process in general?

So, you keep decrying ad hoc...how do we increase our kowledge if we don't add to and adjust our theories? What should we do...stand by a stove and extrapolate the knowledge we learn there to something as complex as the sun? I think the parties just beginning - we have so much to learn. I think I'll move away from the stove and learn it.

Bottom line...your example takes into consideration only one factor for heat dissipation...distance. I've given you several others, yet you stick to your stove example. Nothing I've put forward violates the second law. I don't doubt a physics department would tell me the further you get from a stove the cooler it will be...but do you really think they would think that's an apt analogy for corona vs photshere tempature differences? Northumbria University. "Light shone on star mystery: Why sun's corona is much hotter than its surface." ScienceDaily. ScienceDaily, 4 February 2013. www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130204094608.htm.

============================================================================= Are you kidding with a statement like this? I will forgo comment because I'd like to keep this thread open The Space Heater example You need to review 2LOT. Let me explain it: The Standard Model of the Sun Says that there are Thermo-Nuclear Reactions inside the Sun that powers it with Massive Convection (another very serious problem...see Reynolds Number). Therefore: If that's the Case; THEN Core (Hottest)-------> PhotoSphere (Less Hot)----------> ChromoSphere (Lesser Hot) ---------> Corona (Least HOT). The further away from the source the less HOT.....HEAT FLOWS DOWNHILL......................... it's Basic 2LOT and it's Intuitive. It's Like a Wood Stove Jerry; the further away you get.....the Less Heat you feel. What do we Find in the Sun's Temp Profile......THE EXACT OPPOSITE. THEREFORE: it's in Violation of 2LOT and...................... “If your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for [your theory] but to collapse in the deepest humiliation.” [Arthur S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World (1930), p. 74.] This is really the Bare Bones of it. It does not violate the second law. My example is perfectly valid. Heat dissipation of energy is what causes entropy. Your stove example is invalid, because the only energy it give off is heat. By your stove example, it should be hotter 200,000 miles out in space from earth in the direction of the sun. It's not is it? Care to tell me why since that space is closer to the energy source (the stove/sun) than we are, and there is less energy reaching us than at that point? Think the same mechanics could be going on in the sun since the energy passes through different media? My example is valid because the energy passed through a more conductive medium (copper) gives off less heat energy than when it passes through the more resistant coils. The sun gives off many forms of energy - gamma, x-ray, light, uv etc. Your stove example is too simple.

You explained nothing. The corona has been measured to be hotter than the surface. Just because you can't wrap your head around it does not mean it violates the second law. Energy takes many forms. Let me give you a practical example. Say you have a space heater at the end of an extension cord. Even though the area near the heater will be warmer, there is more energy where the cord plugs into the wall than when it reaches the heater (copper is not a perfect conductor). There you have it…hotter further from the source of energy and no breaking the LAW.

How do you figure this violates the 2nd law?

OK, what's your alternative? You have some explanation of how the sun works? Do we throw all our knowledge away and start over?

Ok, let's just say everything you posted above shatters modern astronomy, physics, mathematcs etc. regarding sun. Do you have alternative science on the make-up, mechanics, thermodynamics etc of the sun? Is your answer (Psalms 19:4-6) "Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, {5} Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. {6} His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.", and we stop investigating. What's the point of this post?