Shar

John

 

 

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh,  I have to do this in several posts.  Each is a different topic.  I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth.  My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam.  And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d.  I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend.  Stay tuned.

 

Should get post One to you tomorrow.

 

 

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

 

Shiloh,  I have to do this in several posts.  Each is a different topic.  I cannot show every verse, it would take far too long, but some to think upon.This first post are some verses to show the creation of the stars,heavens and angels were before the creation of the earth.  My next post will give the possible social system that existed on earth before Adam.  And the last will be the resulting judgment from G-d.  I will not be able to do the last two posts until this weekend.  Stay tuned.

Many verses to infer differently.

Fair enough.   Can you provide any biblical references outside of Genesis that tell us that there was a pre-adamite earth that was judged by God and destroyed?  Can you also provide the verses that indicate that it was only angels and not men who were inhabiting this pre-adamite earth?

I will get working on it. Got to find some archived notes.

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth.  Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion.  As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth.  There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d.  Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before.  They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

You are leaving out one very important tenet of the Gap Theory and that is there was a pre-adamite race of human beings, corrupted by the fallen angels.   That part keeps getting left out.

 

Actually, I did not leave it out. See reference "or if other beings existed".

I think the reason that some proponents of the Gap Theory omit that part of the theory is that it forces them to confront the theological problems of why God didn't provide a plan of redemption for those human beings, and it also means that sin existed on the earth prior to Adam, which also contradicts the Bible's claim that sin didn't exist in the earth prior to Adam's fall.

 

G-d did not provide a plan of redemption for angels, nothing would require Him to provide one for beings "not created in His image". The plan of redemption is for beings created in His image - Man.

What specific verse are you referring to that sin did not exist on Earth before Adam's fall? If it is the NT verse that sin came thru one man to all mankind, that is specific to man. Not to any other possible being, not created in G-d image.

The Bible knows of no other human beings prior to Adam.

Many verses to infer differently.

 

Old Earth Creationism and the New Heavens and New Earth

 

One major tenet or belief of OEC is the belief not only that the earth is old in terms of millions or even billions of years as science purports, but also that physical death pre-dates the sin of Adam.

 

OEC proponents like Norm Geisler assert that Adam’s sin only brought about the spiritual death of mankind.  His contention is true that Romans 5:12-21 only speaks of the sin bringing about separation (spiritual death) of man from God.   Man died spiritually in the Garden of Eden, but death of animal life predates the events spoken of in Genesis 3.

 

The problem for us then is what exactly God defines as, “good.”   

 

Now let’s just assume for a minute that OEC is correct.  In Genesis 1:31 it says that God looked upon all that He had created for the last some 4.5 billions years, looked upon all of the death and decay in the world He had made and declared it to be “Tov Meod”  (very good) Tov Meod is an emphatic statement.  It refers to a level of “goodness” that can’t be improved upon; it is as good as it is gets.  

 

So God who engineered death and decay into His creation declares that the earth is as good as it can ever be.  God can’t be in error and He can’t create imperfection because there is no imperfection in Him.   So based on Genesis 1:31, a world that has billions of years of death and decay BEFORE sin was in the earth, was in a state of perfection.

 

Now fast forward to the end of the age in the book of Revelation chapters 21 and 22.  

 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  Rev 21:1-5

 

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:1-3

 

Compare this with the following end times description offered by Isaiah: 

 

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa 11:6-9

 

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isa 65:17-25

 

Notice that in connection with Christ’s reign in the New Heavens and New Earth  the Bible speaks of no more curse, pain, death, tears, and this includes the animal kingdom according to the passages listed above all of which refer to the same time period.

 

All of this occurs AFTER sin is eradicated from the world.  We can know what the original earth was like before sin by looking at what the world will be like after sin is gone.  

 

Yet the OEC would have us believe that the death and decay, the predator/prey relationship that existed between animals all of that was part of what God called “very good.”  

 

So if that is what the world was like prior to sin, how come we don’t get this same picture of the earth after sin is eradicated?   Why would God need to renovate the earth and get of all death of both man and beast if that was what He considered good and perfect to begin with?    Why is sin connected to the physical death of both man and beast in terms of eschatology, but not connected to them relevant to their original creation?

 

Clearly if death and decay were so good that God felt He had created the best possible world for man to live in, it is hard to explain how God could have made a better world with no death of any man or animal.   Is the world with death and decay better than the one made with no death of any kind of animal or human being?   If the latter is better, than it stands to reason, it would have to have been at least as good as the original, and that means the original earth had no death either.   The OEC view that death and decay within the created order existed prior to man’s sin doesn’t hold water, theologically  because death and decay among the animals is connected to  sin in Revelation 21.

 

Some OEC positions believe that Adam was not the first being to appear on the Earth.  Some believe, through various verses in the Old Testament that Lucifer was governing in the Garden of Eden before he led an angelic rebellion.  As a result of the angels sinning, G-d judged the Earth.  There was no redemption plan for the angels, or if other beings existed, they too were not created in the image of G-d.  Therefore, because of the judgment, death and decay did exist before.  They believe the six days of creation are G-d calling forth what already existed, then commencing with the act of creating animals and man, beginning with Day 5, for those creatures who now had the "breath of life" in them.

Spock.  You make me laugh.

 

 

Shiloh, I deeply apologize to you. I got off task when I was responding to a post. It was Enoch I was responding to. I absent-mindedly wrote Shiloh, but meant to write Enoch. Please forgive this oversight. My posting was not meant for you. You had a right to bark back at me for that. I hope you know it was not meant for you.

 

That is totally okay, shar.  I was not and am not offended at you.   I hope i didn't come off as "barking" at you. LOL.   I really do enjoy talking to you.  So you have nothing to worry about.  It happens on the boards when we are posting and people get confused and think they are responding to someone else.  I have done it, myself.   No hard feelings, I promise.

 

Thank you, Shiloh.  I really do love you.  The forum is sometimes boring when you are not on.  Thanks for understanding and may G-d richly bless you!

 

 

 

 

Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning. The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables because of this lack of understanding. Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning. G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work. We have been through the duality possibility. Opinions otherwise won't change it.

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew."

 

But the Author was Jesus Christ.  I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement.

 

..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen.  Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning."

 

I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me.  I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages?

 

 

Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel.  The Bible is for all of mankind.  The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations.   You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word.

 

 

"The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables"

 

What "church" might that be?

 

In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying.  For ex. Mt 5:22.  The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money.  Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead.  The  whole parable has to do with money.  The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving.  The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous.  That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. 

 

 

"Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning."

 

I would have to agree with you.... in some instances.  Perhaps someone can speak to this. 

 

 

"G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work."

 

100% agree.....

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

 

One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d".  Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette?

I deeply apologize to you. I read your post , but got confused that it was from Shiloh. I was a little sensitive to the comment about being difficult to add "O" to G-d and thought he was on my case again. The last bit was not meant for you and obviously not for Shiloh either since he did not post it. I hope you accept my apology. Please feel free to ask me anything. I promised I will read it more carefully and not let myself get confused by being distracted by other activities when posting. Sorry

 

 

No worries. Confusing me with Shiloh is a compliment of the Highest Order in my eyes

 

You are soooo sweet.  Yes, Shiloh has some valuable insight.  Thanks again my brother.  G-d Bless

Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning. The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables because of this lack of understanding. Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning. G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work. We have been through the duality possibility. Opinions otherwise won't change it.

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew."

 

But the Author was Jesus Christ.  I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement.

 

..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen.  Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning."

 

I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me.  I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages?

 

 

Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel.  The Bible is for all of mankind.  The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations.   You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word.

 

 

"The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables"

 

What "church" might that be?

 

In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying.  For ex. Mt 5:22.  The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money.  Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead.  The  whole parable has to do with money.  The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving.  The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous.  That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. 

 

 

"Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning."

 

I would have to agree with you.... in some instances.  Perhaps someone can speak to this. 

 

 

"G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work."

 

100% agree.....

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

 

One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d".  Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette?

I deeply apologize to you. I read your post , but got confused that it was from Shiloh. I was a little sensitive to the comment about being difficult to add "O" to G-d and thought he was on my case again. The last bit was not meant for you and obviously not for Shiloh either since he did not post it. I hope you accept my apology. Please feel free to ask me anything. I promised I will read it more carefully and not let myself get confused by being distracted by other activities when posting. Sorry

shiloh357, on 14 Jan 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

It's more than that.  The Hebrew grammar of the text only allows for the use of "yom" to be rendered as a litreal 24 hour day in that particular text.  That is the crux of the problem.

 

Does this include having to believe that vs 1 was a part of Day 1? That in the first 24-hour time period God creates the entire universe, the earth, waters, and then light?

Does this include having to believe that days were marked off as 24 hours before the creation of the sun?

Does this include having to believe that evenings and mornings likewise existed before the creation of the sun?

1. Actually day 1 only includes the creation of light and the separation of light and darkness.

 

2. I dont know what is hard to accept about that given that this would not be a problem for an all-knowing God.  Furthermore, the sun is the catalyist for photosynthesis yet there was vegitation prior to the creation of the sun.   In the OEC view, photosynthesis might have been happening for billions of years without the aid of the sun. So I don't see the problem with believing that an all-knowing God can mark off 24 hours without the aid of the sun.

 

3. What does the text say?   Why add such modifers to the text if 24 hour days were not intended?

 

I definitely see the obsession with 6 24-hour periods trumping the spiritual message.

But If I were obsessed with OEC view of billions of years that would not trump the spiritual message???    I don't get where this can be called an "obsession."   I am simply committed to the truth of what the text says. 

 

I don't see where holding to the 6 24 hour day trumps the spiritual message.

 

OK, if I were to ask the average Christian what common Gospel doctrine comes out of Gen. 1:2 by itself, what would I be told?

Or if I were to ask the average Christian what common Gospel doctrine comes out of Gen. 1:14-19, what would I be told?

There are many who would not be able to answer those questions not because those texts don't speak to doctrinal issues, but because they have never been trained to see the doctrines in Genesis.   They have been trained to see it all as a bunch of stories that have little to no relevance to them and their lives.

 

Then why is everyone trying to glean a scientific interpretation out of it rather than a spiritual one?

You will have to ask them, because that isn't what I am trying to do.

Shiloh, I deeply apologize to you. I got off task when I was responding to a post. It was Enoch I was responding to. I absent-mindedly wrote Shiloh, but meant to write Enoch. Please forgive this oversight. My posting was not meant for you. You had a right to bark back at me for that. I hope you know it was not meant for you.

 

 

Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning. The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables because of this lack of understanding. Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning. G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work. We have been through the duality possibility. Opinions otherwise won't change it.

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew."

 

But the Author was Jesus Christ.  I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement.

 

..and he used Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles and other Jews to put it in pen.  Jesus and Paul attest to Moses and what He said. Ro. 10:5

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning."

 

I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me.  I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages?

 

 

Jews were charged to bring the ways and word of G-d to the nations and teach them about the one true G-d of Israel.  The Bible is for all of mankind.  The Jews did not fully obey their charge to the nations.   You do not need to be a Jew or Hebrew scholar, but you cannot wipe out the Jewishness of the Bible or Jesus and expect to come to a clear understanding of the word.

 

 

"The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables"

 

What "church" might that be?

 

In some churches, when teaching some parables, because they do not understand some of the Jewish customs of the times, have made efforts to completely interpret it on what they think it is saying.  For ex. Mt 5:22.  The eye is good, eye is bad referenced here is still talking about money.  Some want to say that it has to do with what you are looking at, instead.  The  whole parable has to do with money.  The good eye in the Jewish culture meant some one who was generous and giving.  The bad eye was someone who was closed-fist and not generous.  That is why Jesus said you cannot serve both G-d and money. 

 

 

"Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning."

 

I would have to agree with you.... in some instances.  Perhaps someone can speak to this. 

 

 

"G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work."

 

100% agree.....

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

 

One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d".  Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette?

 

 

 

Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning. The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables because of this lack of understanding. Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning. G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work. We have been through the duality possibility. Opinions otherwise won't change it.

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew."

 

But the Author was Jesus Christ.  I've "heard" that there is some proof that it was given to Moses 1 letter @ a time...can't support that statement.

 

 

"Moses wrote the Bible and was a Jew. You have to view it from a Jewish perspective or you will lose its intent and full meaning."

 

I may be misguided but I thought he wrote it to me.  I'm getting a feeling here that I either have to be a Jew or a Hebrew Scholar to be able to discern what the LORD is trying to say or distill the TRUE meaning....is that a fair assessment or am I misunderstanding the messages?

 

 

"The church has misinterpreted some of Jesus' parables"

 

What "church" might that be?

 

 

"Once you do, however, they burst open with meaning."

 

I would have to agree with you.... in some instances.  Perhaps someone can speak to this. 

 

 

"G-d states there are mysteries here. You have to do a little detective work."

 

100% agree.....

 

(Proverbs 25:2) "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."

 

 

One last issue....I've seen alot of posts in the forum with "G-d".  Is it that difficult to add the "O" and spell it "GOD" or I am "out of the loop" and not following proper etiquette?

 

Writing G-d instead of the way you write it stems from the Jewish perspective that G-d's name is most holy, as G-d states, and must be respected, protected and highly regarded.  It is written this way to not write out in entirety and to safeguard not taking His name in vain.  You must respect this as an expression for the love of G-d and not as a violation of proper etiquette.

 

Shiloh, you have self-proclaimed yourself a Hebrew scholar, knowledgeable of science, and of great knowledge in Judaism and the Hebrew way - and you did not know this?  Well, it now looks like you are holding yourself out as an etiquette expert too.  Shall we call you Shiloh Vanderbilt or Shiloh Post?

Absolutely love it.  Remember the first episode debut in 1966.  Spock was my favorite.  I even joyed the fan club in 1966 and received autograph pictures of Kirk, Spock and Dr. McCoy.  Loved all the original movies that were even-numbered.  Did not like the odd-numbered movies.  Six in all.  Liked the orignal series, Next Generation and Voyager.  Did not like Deep Space Nine or Enterprise.  Love the Borg the most as an enemy.

 

You cannot take a quote Dr. Schroeder used from someone else who may have practiced a considerably different form of Kabbalah and make it to what we understand about Kabbalah today, which is definitely occultic.  Back centuries ago it did not take this form.

 

You are wrong. The Kaballah was always occultic.  

 

Besides they are referencing certain points of Hebrew to support a point that was made. 

 

They are referencing Hebrew from a mystical and not a textual perspective  They are adding mystical interpretations and presenting this mystical meaning as if it is the meaning of the text.

 

When we read more about the science of starlight and time we can see that the six day 24-hour creation and the billions of years of age to the universe can both be true.  This is the essence of Hebrew block logic.

 

That is not the essence of Herew block logic at all  If God were trying to fit 15 billion years into six days, He would have said so, but He didn't. 

 

One of the aspects of Hebrew block logic is duality.  You can have both.  For example, election and free-will.  Christian churches have divided themselves on this doctrine and swear one over the other.  Not so, in Judaism.  It can be both!

We have been through the discussion of the word "yom".  Even someone without any study in Hebrew, could go to the Strong's Concordance and read that:

 

"yom" (yowm) can literally mean a day, from sundown to sunrise, "or fig. (in space of time defined by an associated term) [often used as an adverb]:-age, required season, forever, process of time, etc." 

 

You may think "olam" is a better word, but it was not used, nor was it required to show a period of time.   Scholars and translators, tested and recognized as experts in Hebrew, agree that there are two basic views here to creation.  (1) a literal 24 hour day, or  (2) an indefinite period of time, even millions of years. 

 

This will not be settled here.  We have to understand, there are believers who can legitimately believe and support either view.

On (or is it in) the New Heavens and Earth after Jesus makes his triumphant return?

Yes during 1000 year reign of Christ; none when new heaven and new earth commences.

Why is God going to give us a white stone with a new name? Revelation 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”

Great question. I think I'm going to research this and get back later on this.

my worthy name desi is from seeking "my destiny" or "my journey", i really liked destiny better so went what that ...but just shorten it ...and 2007 is the year I came on board here.

I thought it was from Desi Arnez ( I love Lucy's husband)

yea, I must say he was a hunky man when he was younger.

One of the best shows ever made for television. The Harpo Marx episode was hysterical, but so were 1000 others.

Blessings to Shar ,

     I see you here & have seen you post on a different thread but I seem to have missed you on the Welcome Forum,I know my Sister Zion will not mind if I take this time to welcome you to Worthy.......every time I read your responses I am curious to know why you replace the letter "o"with a dash when referring to God or Lord,may I ask why?

     God bless you,I do hope you enjoy Worthy as much as I do!

                                                                                                                              With love,in Christ-Kwik

Thank you for your warm welcome. I am also from South Florida. Went to FSU and I miss my beach. I practice Messianic Judaism, where Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus worship together (we refer to His Hebrew name, Yeshua). We hold to the practice of the faith at the time of Jesus, the apostles and the early church, which was a biblical sect of Judaism. In Judaism, the name of G-d is most holy, so we do not write out G-d or L-rd in respect to his holy name. Often, G-d will also be referred to in Judaism, as Ha Shem, which means the name. Thanks for asking.

This really sounds like a duplicate thread.  We have already discussed these points in the OEC - New Earth and Old Earth thread.  Seems best to keep it on the initial thread and not create a new one.

You cannot take a quote Dr. Schroeder used from someone else who may have practiced a considerably different form of Kabbalah and make it to what we understand about Kabbalah today, which is definitely occultic.  Back centuries ago it did not take this form.  Besides they are referencing certain points of Hebrew to support a point that was made.  The point is not these older sages but the truth of starlight and time.  The science behind the Bible.  G-d is the greatest scientist.  He was the one who put into effect the laws of the universe - starlight, time, speed of light, thermodyanmics, gravity, speed of sound, etc.  He does not even compromise His own laws.  When we read more about the science of starlight and time we can see that the six day 24-hour creation and the billions of years of age to the universe can both be true.  This is the essence of Hebrew block logic. You do not need to mentally check out of science to believe the Bible.  Science actually proves the Bible and thereby proves the existence of G-d.  Science is all through the Bible.

 

The Hubble telescope and space probes have actually given us a true glimpse of how stars, planets, asteroids, etc. are actually being created and died.  G-d is always creating.  The laws He set into effect are still at work to this very day.  Baruch HaShem!

I would say definitely "yes".  Our L-rd is the exact representation of the Father.  Our L-rd definitely laughed, cried and experienced all the emotions we have.  All thoroughout G-d's word you hear of G-d, the Father, being pleased, having pleasure and things bringing Him joy.  Those situations can make you smile.  We are His children, and for those of us who have children or grandchildren, aren't there times when they make you laugh?  I am sure the L-rd has had his share of laughs from all of us.  Wheresoever there is light and joy, there is laughter and you cannot have laughter without a sense of humor.

 

 

Ok, time for the other side. Here is my Hebrew scholar, Dr. Gerald Schroeder who will blow you away with his writings from both a scientific perspective and and Biblical one. He says both may be correct- 15 billion years and 6 days.

This article is deep so you will definitely have to put on your thinking cap. Cheers.

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?tab=y

Side note: this article is best read in its entirety, but if you are intimidated by its length, just read the last sectio- 15 billion years or 6 Days. I promise you, you will be blown away and fall to your knees in utter humility and praise as I did.

Here we are arguing who is right, 15 billion years or 6 days and both are right. Find out how. Be blessed.

Spock out

 

Ah yes...  Gerold Schroeder and his time dilation theory.   Has anyone read his book?   It really isn't all that impressive when you get into the more detailed information contained in his book.  It is really nothing more than a variation on the day-age hypothesis.   This is because he is also an evolutionist.

 

The comment he makes about having two clocks, one on earth and one some other place in the universe where 15 billion years on earth is only 6 days in another part of the universe, doesn't really jive with Genesis because God isn't in another part of the universe where time is passing by at such a blinding rate of speed. He is hovering over the earth in Gen. 1:2  

Furthermore the narrator perspective of Genesis 1 is that of a person standing on the earth watching everything happening around him.  It is not written from the perspective of someone looking at the events of creation from some distant location that would make 15 billion years feel like six days.  The narrator is giving his description as if he is experiencing it in real time, six days. 

Also I would point that Schroeder, in his book and in this article, gives various erroneous and incorrect definitions of Hebrew words.  Here is what he says in the article:

 

"Nachmanides says the text uses the words "Vayehi Erev" ― but it doesn't mean "there was evening." He explains that the Hebrew letters Ayin, Resh, Bet ― the root of "erev" ― is chaos. Mixture, disorder. That's why evening is called "erev", because when the sun goes down, vision becomes blurry. The literal meaning is "there was disorder." The Torah's word for "morning" ― "boker" ― is the absolute opposite. When the sun rises, the world becomes "bikoret", orderly, able to be discerned. That's why the sun needn't be mentioned until Day Four. Because from erev to boker is a flow from disorder to order, from chaos to cosmos. That's something any scientist will testify never happens in an unguided system. Order never arises from disorder spontaneously and remains orderly. Order always degrades to chaos unless the environment recognizes the order and locks it in to preserve it. There must be a guide to the system. That's an unequivocal statement." ~Schroeder

 

What needs to be pointed out is that the Rabbis in these commentaries like Nachmanides and RASHI and the RAMBAM are adding the mystical kabalistic meaning to these words.   The Rabbis in using PARDES method of hermeneutics view the Scriptures as being layered with meanings.  The "meaning" of a text isn't what you read.  The meaning of the text is "mystical" and is only discovered by peeling back the many layers and this is done through kabalistic interpretation.   So what they consider "literal" means something totally different to the way that we mean literal.

 

He is applying the mystical rendering of Erev when he claims it means chaos.  It doesn't mean chaos.   It is never used to mean chaos.   In Jerusalem and in Jewish communities all over the world, Jewish people will wish someone "erev tov"   or "boker tov"    which mean "good evening" or "good morning."    "Erev" is never used in the sense it is used in Genesis 1 to mean "chaos"  in normal usage like what we see in Genesis 1.  Nor does boker mean, ":order."   That is the application of an irrelevant mystical, dare a I say, occultic approach to the text.  Kabbalah is occultic.

 

So This article, despite Spock's claims, is NOT the "other side."   Schroeder is not an Hebraist.  He is not a scholar of Hebrew.  He is a physicist at MIT.   So to present an article about time dilation as a refutation of a Hebrew scholar is rather laughable and doesn't really counter anything stated by Wang's article presented in the OP.

 

 

I would like to return the thread to the topic of my OP.    Please continue the discussion of the different branches of science in another thread.  Here is my previous response to Schroeder article which someone mistakenly thought was a rebuttal to a scholar of the Hebrew language.

 

 

 

You make me laugh, Shiloh.  Thanks!  You question the Hebrew of a Jewish Ph.D who was raised Jewish and was raised on Hebrew from his childhood.  Reads, speaks and writes Hebrew weekly and especially during Shabbat and study of the Torah.  I would bet on a true one-on-one with him, he would win the Hebrew contest.

 

Also, the old sages you referenced were not all into Kabbalistic thought.  However, the Kabbalah of many centuries ago was not the occultic Kabbalah of today, (like Madonna practices).  It was a more spiritual focus, looking for more tangible, spiritual experiences, somewhat like our charismatic movements of today.

Well, not all Jewish scholars or experts in the Law at that time, but a small group that were afraid of losing their political standing and position with Rome were the ones quick to want Him put to death.  Many, many Jews and even leaders in the Sanhedrin believed in Jesus.  But understand, this was the plan of G-d and Christ was born to be the Passover lamb and the sacrifice for our sins. It had to happen.  Only the Jews could prepare and slaughter the Lamb.  As far as Jews and scholars today, it is hard for them to see their Messiah, especially when the Church history has basically stripped Jesus of His Jewishness and committed the senseless slaughter of so many Jews throughout the ages in Christ's name.  Anti-Semitism exists in many sects of Christianity and calling them Christ-killers, etc.  We may be more responsible for their unbelief than we care to admit.

You must believe in the completed work of Christ on the cross and the full forgiveness of your sins.  G-d says he throws our sins into His sea of forgetfulness and He remembers them no more.  He further states, "as far as the east is from the west so are our sins and He remembers them no more.  So, why are you remembering yours? There is only one source this is coming from - Satan.  He could not stop your from accepting Christ, but with this he can stop you from being an effective, happy witness.  G-d says in Isaiah 43:18 - "Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past.  See, I am doing a new thing."  That is where you need to go, with G-d, into the new plans He has for you.  Everytime your past comes to mind, remember our L-rd's command here in Isaiah.  Don't let Satan cripple you in anyway from having the great, abundant life G-d has in store for you.  Put on that whole armour and do the battle.  Gird up your mind and move forward.  You will make mistakes, you will sometimes fall short, but the L-rd promises that the righteous will be picked up and never forsaken.  And, if you do sin, we have an advocate before the Father who says "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteous. Thank you, L-rd.  Remember, you now have the resurrected power of Christ.  You can do all things through Christ's strength.  Here's to your abundant life!