disciplehelovestoo

 

don't quit the thread; show scriptures for your beliefs instead - don't let offense stop you from helping the silent readers who are following this.

Last time I'm doing this. I will stop posting because you ignore any verse that don't fit your opinion. But, you are right, there are some silently watching who should see the truth no matter what.

 

1 Cor. 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

 

1. does smoking cause cancer? Does cancer destroy the body? What does the above verse say about what will happen to those who willfully destroy the body like smoking does?

1 Corinthians 10:31

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

 

2. Does smoking glorify God?

Romans 12:1

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

 

 

3. If our bodies are temples and to be presented as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, Does smoking, which destroys the body accomplish this? Does smoking glorify God in our Bodies?

 

1 John 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

4. Sin is the transgression of Gods word. If smoking destroys the body it transgress God's word, and that is sin! Does Smoking Glorify God in our Bodies, Helping us present our bodies as a living Sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God? If not it is transgressing God's word and that is sin!

 

 

The bible is very specific about how we are to present ourselves and our bodies to God. Smoking violates those verses and teachings, which makes it sin! Lastly, I never said remission of sins was why Jesus came, I said Remission or forgiveness of sin was the gospel message that we are commanded to tell everyone in word and deed, and to do that you must be able to tell people what a sin is. I don't know where this thought that if you say something is a sin, then you have to be judging came from. But it is not true. I am done. I have heard your argument and now I have post verses one last time to back up mine. I will pray for you. I am done with this thread. I said it, I mean it.

 

God bless

Firestormx

Joseph

 

first, let me say THANK YOU!!! for offering scripture to support your views!!!

1. i've already shown that 1Cor 3:16, 17 taken in context is referring to diversity of doctrines as it relates to spiritual defilement; show me from scripture (not science, experience, opinion, or any other source) where this verse is speaking of physical defilement.

does smoking cause cancer?  many people who smoke do get cancer - but not all - my grandaddy smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day ever since they started making cigarettes - over 50 years - and died of natural causes at 89, not cancer.  this is carnal thinking; science has linked the two, not scripture - the same science that once linked the sun's track across the sky to the mistaken assumption that the earth was stationary at the center of the universe.  here's something to chew on: what kills prematurely is not believing that you have divine health by the stripes of Jesus; cancer is a mechanism of unbelief, not the cause of death; many people have received their healing from cancer - it's unbelief that kills.

2. 1Cor 10:31  the context here is SPIRITUAL defilement - idol worship - worshiping false Gods - not physical defilement.  show me from scripture (not science, experience, opinion, or any other source) where this verse is speaking of physical defilement.

does driving in a car glorify God in every case?  what about using a cell phone?  are these things always used to God's glory, or is it what's in the heart of those who use them that makes these actions glorify God?

Romans 12:1 has a key word - "THEREFORE" - linking it to chapter 11 - the context of chapter 11 is spiritual defilement - not physical.  

1Cor 6:19-20 the context here is fornication - but Paul does list a number of 'sins'in verses 9 and 10 - where is smoking in the list?

3. you have yet to establish that there is ANYTHING in the scripture about physical habits defiling the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit, nor that smoking is established as a transgression of the law; as the law does not mention smoking.

4. this is a conclusion you have reached, but there is NOTHING in the scripture (the law) about smoking!

why didn't you quote these scriptures in context?  is it because you know that that by doing so it will be obvious to all that they are NOT speaking of physical habits?

 

people were afraid to approach God because they feared His judgement for their sins; yes, Jesus came to remove every reason that man might have to fear God's judgment; but even more, Jesus came to remove all reasons why man might not seek fellowship with God -  forgiveness of sins was a huge part of that, but it wasn't all He did for us.  He made us joint-heirs with Him, and He took the curse of the law for us.  from God's perspective, sins (wrong thoughts and actions) are not an issue, He honors Jesus' sacrifice for all wrong thoughts and actions - what sends people to hell is rejecting a relationship with God based solely on faith in His grace, and independent of their performance, good or bad.

 

the good news of the gospel is not remission of sins; that's true, but that's not the almost-too-good-to-be-true news of the gospel - the good news of the gospel is that you can know God, which IS life eternal, based on faith in His grace, and regardless of your own performance, good or bad.  

 

Jesus was very hard on some people; but not adulterers, or prostitutes, or thieves (or smokers) - Jesus was hard on the self-righteous - those who thought that their own holiness based in their performance could gain them favor with God; these were those whom He said were of their father the devil.  where did Jesus point out someone's wrong thoughts or actions aside from those He called hypocrites?  

 

Jesus was actually very tough on sin.  Jesus didn't just condemn the sins of the self-righteous.  He told the sinners to go and sin no more.  He didn't cut them any slack, either. 

 

when you received spiritual rebirth, did God immediately point out all your wrong thoughts and actions and expect you to turn completely from all of your 'sins' instantly and never make another mistake?  or did He start with one or two things that you needed to change, and once you understood about those things, show you another one or two more things you need to change, etc.? 

 

God commands to flee from all sin.  He doesn't pick out just one two. Light that shines in our hearts to reveal sin is a floodlight not a penlight.

 

 He does this with everyone; but many seem to think He needs help with this - that they should point out other people's 'sins' to them independent of God's leading; this was exactly what the pharisees were doing in John 8:3 that led Jesus to tell them that they were of their father the devil in John 8:44 - they were pointing out someone's sins.

 

We are called to expose sin.  Read Ephesians 5.  We are called to expose the deeds of darkness.  We are called to call sin what it is.  We are not judging others, but we are exposing what is or is not sin.

 

 

many feel competent to judge actions as sins that aren't dealt with in the scriptures; much like the pharisees judged people who didn't wash their hands before they ate:

Mar 7:5-8

(5)  Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

(6)  He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

(7)  Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

(8)  For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

 

notice Jesus' harsh response - would He be saying this to those who call smoking sin and point this out to fellow believers who smoke?

No, He wouldn't.  You can't compare a ritual tradition with a self-destructive habit that detracts from God's glory.  Your comparison is invalid.   Smoking isn't a religious tradition or ritual.  So it is not analogous to hand washing.

 

 

 

i never said that we should never point out when a believer is in sin; i said we have to be careful to be led by God to do this or it will merely bring condemnation on that believer; and this only for those wrong thoughts and actions that God has defined as 'sins' in the scriptures - if God didn't clearly point out that smoking is sin, then why do you feel that you can make this decision for Him?

 

the difference between what i am doing and what you are doing here in this thread is that i have clear scripture to stand on for what i believe...

 

That is false.  You have been provided Scripture and your consistent misuse and mishandling of Scripture has correctted and refuted many times over.

 

 

 

don't quit the thread; show scriptures for your beliefs instead - don't let offense stop you from helping the silent readers who are following this.

 

 

You have been provided Scriptures many times and you ignore them.  Asking for what has already been provided, and ignored and then returning to thread as if nothing has been provided is a dishonest tactic.

 

 

Ephesians 5 says absolutely nothing about smoking.  plucking verses out of context may help you justify your beliefs, and may in your mind give you the right to call me dishonest, but it does not move me at all.  you are not God; you are no authority that i need yield to - no matter how condescending and insulting you try to be.  in spite of that, i forgive you anyway.

The bible said that a prayer of a sinner,is abomination to God,

@dsiciplehelovestoo, how can you reconcile a lost son back to God? By encouraging him to smoke?

I myself, i spend many years in the kingdom of darkness,i use to be a useless sinner before,

But on 27th of may 2013"

I had an encounter with Jesus,

the pastor that God use to mark a new era in my life,

told me many things a genuine child of God,

is not supposed to do,

he told me boldly that this kind of life will only lead me to destruction,

he did not beat around the bush,he hit the point, by telling me that patronizing harlot and womanizing here and there is a sin,

and what the pastor was telling me was exactly what i was doing,

was he judging me? No

he was simple telling me the gosple truth,

the bible said, you shall know the truth,and the truth shall set you free,

Jesus said in John 6:63"

The words that i speaks to you,they are spirit and they are life,

God use that pastor to brought me back to life,

I knew who i was before,and i know who iam now,

and since 27th of may 2013"

Till now, no single regret,it has been from grace to grace,from glory to glory,

I had been a christian from my mother womb,

because i was born into a christian family,

i was only following Christ,without doing the will of God,and without living the examplary life,

Jesus set for those that believed in Him to live,

,

that very day i knew the difference between a christian and a born

again,

A divine being enter into my life and changed me for good,to the glory of God,

only God by His great mercy can do this,

iam only trying to point out something here,

so that brother dsiciplehelovestoo will learn,

and stop misunderstanding the word of God,

by believing that, rebuking,and someone saying the truth is [judging]

Now we know that God hearth not sinners,but if any one be a worshipper of God,and doeth his will,him he heareth,

John 9:31"

How can you preach the gosple to a lost son,or someone who is still living in sin?

if not by telling the person that what he is doing is against the will of God,

by telling him that he is commiting sin against God,

We know the works of sin,and we know the works of righteousness,

@brother dsiciplehelovestoo,

we are debating on one topic,

with three different believe,

and you brought in the issue of judging,because someone address sin by it name,

any body that indulge in sex out side marriage is commiting sin,

and that person is a sinner,

that is my believe,

I want to see the end of this debate,

Is smoking tobaco a sin?

we have three believe here,

1 some say it is not a sin,but it is not wise to smoke,

2 some say it is a sin,

3 some encourage believer to smoke,because no passage in the bible,directly ask believer to abstain from smoking.

you aren't even coming CLOSE to quoting what i've said.  i NEVER said that people should smoke!!!  I haven't encouraged anyone to smoke at all anywhere in anything i've said!!!  the problem isn't your cellphone; you could write down what i said and re-type it if you wanted to quote me accurately, right?  i forgive you for saying that i said things i haven't said; i forgive you for judging me to be in error for sharing the WORD OF GOD that i base my beliefs on.  

you can ask me a thousand times and my answer will be the same: smoking is a sin for you if you think it is; and if you don't think it is, then it is not a sin for you; because it is not clearly defined as sin in the scripture - GOD HAS NOT DEFINED SMOKING AS SIN IN HIS WORD.  you believe it is a sin, but you have no clear scripture (WORD OF GOD) to stand on for this belief - yet surely you have scripture to stand on for your salvation, right?   why is this subject different?

you say that i misunderstand scripture; you say that "a prayer of a sinner,is abomination to God"; where is this in scripture?  are you referring to this:

Pro 15:8

you've missed the whole point of salvation - it's not a 'second chance' where God picks you up, dusts you off, points you in the right direction and tells you to 'get it right this time' - the Christian life is not merely a changed life - it is an EXCHANGED life - one where we cease from striving to live perfectly by our own strength and understanding and strive instead to be led by God - in this way we die to ourselves and let God live through us.

 

yes, because some do not yet see that the discussion isn't about what actions are sin, but about who has the ability to judge sin.

 

the core issue here is what you are focused on - your performance or God's leading; your ability to judge sin and righteousness versus His.

 if you make your own decisions about what is sin, then you are focused on your performance and led by your own reasoning and have rejected God's leading - even if your judgement happens to be correct; you are fallen from grace and fully accountable under the law for any and every sin.  if you are led by God, you are free from the law in that it is no longer your responsibility to interpret and apply the law, as you have yielded this right back to God - and He will never lead you to sin.  in the latter case, your sins that occur due to missing His leading are covered by mercy through Jesus' sacrifice for your sins; in the former case they are not.

What is the most basic Gospel message we are commanded in the bible to share? What is the "good news" of the gospel? Isn't the Gospel message that we are commanded to share  " there is remission ( Forgiveness ) of sin in Jesus Christ alone, that our relationship with God can be restored? Is that not it? There is remission of sin in Jesus Christ! How exactly are we suppose to tell people that there is remission/Forgiveness of sin in Jesus Christ if we can't tell people what sin is?

 

  Telling someone something is a sin is not judging sin. To say it is would be nonsense. Jesus Christ in his ministry called things and people that were in the wrong, just that. That they were wrong, and sinning. Jesus went so far as to say some had the devil as there father. Jesus also said he never judged anyone while here on earth the first time. So was Jesus wrong? Jesus said we were to follow his example and he told people when they were doing things that we not right in God's eyes. Are you saying we are not to follow Jesus' example?    

 

 

P.S. I walked away from this thread for a bit to gather my thoughts and pray and realized something. Me and others have been saying smoking is wrong and a sin. You have been saying we are wrong, in the flesh, judging and in sin because it's not our place to say something is a sin. We say something is wrong and sin, you say by defining what sin is we are wrong and in sin ourselves.....but isn't that what your doing? By telling us we are following the flesh, wrong and in sin by labeling smoking as a sin, you are doing the same thing we are, labeling something as sin and wrong. How is what you are doing condemning us as judging and walking in the flesh any different from us say smoking is a sin???? 

 

I'm done with this thread.

 

May God bless you all

Firestormx

Joseph

 

Jesus did pay the price for the sins of the whole world; past present and future; and this was something only He could do - but remissions of sins was not why He came:

God said in the bible,

He will give us pastors according to His own heart,which shall feed us with knowledge and understanding,

Jeremiah 3:15"

Any believer that wanted to live a successful christian life,

need a godly mentor,and a good pastor,and must not lean on his own understanting,

because of church doctrine and tradition of man's,

many christian will go to hell fire,

during Jesus 3 and half years ministry on earth,

He was trying to make the people of His generation to believed that He was the son of God,

but some did not believe Him,

that was why He said to them that whosoever that believe in Him shall be save,

the bible said because of unbelief He could not performed many miracles in His own town,

in this our own generation,believing alone will not take us to heaven,

we must do the works of righteousness,

Jesus told them to believe Him, if not for any thing,for the sake of the work that he is doing,

John 14:11"

What the bible said in 2 timothy 4:2-4" is what we are debating here,

2 preach the word,be instant in season,out of season,reprove,rebuke,exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine,

3 for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine,but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,having itching ears,

4 and they shall turn away their ears from the truth,and shall be turned unto fables.

some of us are searching the scripture, to see where the bible says something like this,concerning smoking tobaco,

for this is the will of God,even your sanctification,that you should abstain from fornication,

1 thessalonians 4:3"

Jesus said boldly, that those that does the will of God,are His brothers and sister,

do you guys think it is the will of God that believers should smoke?

I will like [dsiciplehelovestoo]

To answer me this question,

why are we beating around the bush,

i will be happy to see how this debate will come to an end,

if brother dsiciplehelovestoo,

will go home with the best answer,

all the scripture he quotes,

oppose the believe that,smoking is not biblical.

I strongly believe that if brother disciplehelovestoo, is a pastor,

With this kind of his believe and teaching,with the way he understand the scripture,

any of is member that follow his teaching will be mislead.

any christian who desire to live a successful christian life,willl never learn any good thing,from his teaching. The more i try to rest my case on this topic the more i see myself been involve,

I have asked many people that are more knowledgeable than me in the things of God and man,

concerning this very question,

All the answers has one thing in common,

just that no passage in the bible that directly talks about smoking,

that is the reason why disciplehelovestoo,

is busy quoting passage in the bible,

Just to support his believe.

as i said, i forgive you for judging me.

Wow this discussion is still going on...

Seems to me if it's a stumbling block to those weak in the faith it should be avoided. Is it sin? For those who view it as sin it is as such. Do we have a right to smoke? Sure, but it is not beneficial or edifying. Our right shouldn't be a stumbling block to those who are weak.

 

1 Cor. 8 (ESV)

Food Offered to Idols

8 Now concerningfood offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. ² If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. ³ But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

 

⁴ Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” ⁵ For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ⁶ yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

 

⁷ However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, smoke tobacco as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. ⁸ Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. ⁹ But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. ¹⁰ For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? ¹¹ And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. ¹² Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. ¹³ Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

 

God bless,

GE

yes, because some do not yet see that the discussion isn't about what actions are sin, but about who has the ability to judge sin.

you bring up a great scripture that hasn't surfaced here yet; but Paul isn't telling us to never eat meat, nor is he saying that eating meat doesn't lead to health issues in some cases; if you eat too much fatty pork, it can lead to serious health issues - that doesn't mean that eating pork is always wrong.  

let's apply this specific scripture to smoking:

⁷ However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, smoke tobacco as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. ⁸ Smoking will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not smoke tobacco, and no better off if we do. ⁹ But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. ¹⁰ For if anyone sees you who have knowledge smoking tobacco in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to smoke tobacco offered to idols? ¹¹ And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. ¹² Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. ¹³ Therefore, if smoking tobacco makes my brother stumble, I will never smoke tobacco, lest I make my brother stumble.

Paul is dealing with idol worship (spiritual defilement), not eating habits (physical defilement); he is saying that if eating meat offered to idols causes a weaker brother to worship idols, then we shouldn't eat meat offered to idols.  he is not saying that if we eat meat, and eating meat causes our weaker brother to have health problems, then we should not eat meat.

the core issue here is what you are focused on - your performance or God's leading; your ability to judge sin and righteousness versus His.  if you make your own decisions about what is sin, then you are focused on your performance and led by your own reasoning and have rejected God's leading - even if your judgement happens to be correct; you are fallen from grace and fully accountable under the law for any and every sin.  if you are led by God, you are free from the law in that it is no longer your responsibility to interpret and apply the law, as you have yielded this right back to God - and He will never lead you to sin.  in the latter case, your sins that occur due to missing His leading are covered by mercy through Jesus' sacrifice for your sins; in the former case they are not.

 

 

are you saying that sex outside of marriage between a man and woman (not children) is not addressed anywhere in the Bible?

 

No, I am saying that pornography isn't defined as sin in the Bible per your standard of logic and reasoning.  Neither is child molestation.   We have enough light about what God says about sexual purity in the Bible to address those issues.  They don't need to spelled out for us.  Your very question proves my point about smoking.  We have enough light about what the Bible says about the stewardship of our bodies   That smoking doesn't need to be "defined" specifically as a sin in order to understand that it is a sin.

 

if 'God's laws provide us with a behavioral paradigm regarding what is sinful and what is not' then how did people tell what was sin and what was not before those laws were given?  why didn't God give Adam these laws? or Noah? 

 

The obvious answer is that God DID provide a standard of conduct and a knowledge of sin. Prior to the giving of the Mosaic law.   Cain and Abel knew the difference between an acceptable and unacceptable sacrifice.   That mankind was completely sinful in the days of Noah and that Noah found grace in God's eyes demonstrates that there was a standard by which Noah lived that the others didn't live by.   Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals and knew what a proper sacrifice to God looked like.

 

Abraham knew the difference between what was righteous and unrighteous when it came to asking God about how many righteous people would it take to spare the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.   So there was a standard in operation given what we know about life prior to the giving of the Mosaic Law.

 

 

the obvious answer is that people prior to the giving of the law of Moses were inclined to be led by God, and that by the time the law was given, they had become so focused on their own righteousness that God had to give them a standard so severe that no one except Him as Jesus could keep it to turn them from leaning on their own understanding back to being led by Him.  Abraham married his half sister and lied about her not being his wife to save his own skin, and he was completely ignorant that God would not punish the righteous with the wicked as evidenced by his asking God if He would do this, yet he received mercy because he yielded to God's leading as evidenced by his leaving his homeland.

what is also obvious is that neither of us sees validity in the other's point of view - so be it; let the readers decide.  

 

you have completely missed my point - i never said that only what is mentioned in the Bible as sin IS sin; i said that what is not clearly defined as sin in the Bible falls under Rom 14:21-23 -

 

and again, by that logic, child molestation and pornography fall under Rom. 14:21-23.   Sorry but that is just absurd.   Frankly, you are essentially saying that what isn't defined as a sin is not sinful, but just an issue of conscience.   So again, I would point out that you are incapable of consistent application of Scripture.

 

i said we aren't smart enough to apply the multitude of God's laws correctly in any given situation - we must be led by God using the scripture to confirm His leading, not as the marvelous gift of 10,000 or so rules we must obey without any mistake to qualify us to approach God based on our own performance; as soon as we start to assemble a list of sins to avoid we forsake His leading in preference to our own intellect, understanding and experience.

 

Again, God's laws provide us with a behavioral paradigm regarding what is sinful and what is not.   Smoking is poor stewardship of the body, and detracts from God's glory. And anything that is destructive to God's creation that abuses what He has made and detracts from His glory is a sin given that our purpose is to glorify Him.  Whatever hinders that is sin.  And that includes smoking even if you can't make room for that reality.

 

 

are you saying that sex outside of marriage between a man and woman (not children) is not addressed anywhere in the Bible?

if 'God's laws provide us with a behavioral paradigm regarding what is sinful and what is not' then how did people tell what was sin and what was not before those laws were given?  why didn't God give Adam these laws? or Noah?  

 

 

 

 

Every one of us should have as our main focus walking in the Spirit.  There is no question that if we do that, we won't sin.  At the same time, it is still valid to ask if a particular thing is a sin.  If someone comes in here and asks if sex outside of marriage is a sin, though this is focusing on the flesh, it is a valid question, and the answer is yes.  At the same time, you are correct in saying that if every Christian would walk in the Spirit, focus on individual sins would not be necessary.  The reason these individual sins matter is because they are symptoms that one is not walking in the Spirit.  Back to the question in the OP.  Is smoking a sin?  I would say in my opinion it is.  Would someone walking in the Spirit smoke?  I would say in my opinion no.  Others may not agree, and that is fine, but the question remains a valid one. 

Gal 5:4

(4)  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

focus is the key; if you are focused on actions, whether it be one specifically identified as sinful by scripture such as sex outside of marriage, or one that isn't mentioned at all in scripture such as smoking - either way you are focused on the flesh - on what you judge to be right and wrong according to your own intellect, understanding and experience - and therefore you can not  be focused on God.

 

Care to address this from Shiloh?

 

By that logic, viewing pornography, spousal abuse and child molestation are not sins because there is no Scripture that says those things are not sins.  Your argument is hermeneutically unsustainable because the Bible doesn't list every possible sin that a person could commit.  Your argument is internally inconsistent.

 

 

i never said that only those actions specifically mentioned in scripture as sin, are sin, and everything else isn't; we aren't smart enough to interpret and apply the multitude of God's laws correctly in any given situation as evidenced by Mat 12:2-8.  it was not lawful from man's perspective for David to eat the shewbread which was reserved for the priests, or for the priests to do the work of killing and preparing the sacrifice on the sabbath - yet these examples are not examples of sin even though they seem to transgress the letter of those laws when interpreted as 'standalone' laws - this is clear evidence that only God can harmonize His laws and apply them correctly in any given situation, and that we must be led by Him

 

the problem  disciple is that you are internally inconsistent in how you approach the Bible.  By the very logic you have already applied previously, it's only sin if it is specifically spelled out in the Bible.  But you have to backtrack when we can point to sins not directly mentioned in the Bible.  The very approach you take to smoking can be applied to pornography or child molestation and I think you know that.   Your argument simply isn't credible.

 

So you need to get a more credible and consistent approach to hermeneutics.

 

you have completely missed my point - i never said that only what is mentioned in the Bible as sin IS sin; i said that what is not clearly defined as sin in the Bible falls under Rom 14:21-23 - i said we aren't smart enough to apply the multitude of God's laws correctly in any given situation - we must be led by God using the scripture to confirm His leading, not as the marvelous gift of 10,000 or so rules we must obey without any mistake to qualify us to approach God based on our own performance; as soon as we start to assemble a list of sins to avoid we forsake His leading in preference to our own intellect, understanding and experience.  

 

you mean IN YOUR OPINION smoking is a flesh act - you have no scripture about smoking, do you?  THIS is what is in question.  where is the scripture about smoking?  did God not foresee that this issue would come up?  did He leave this 'crucial' wrong action un-addressed in scripture by mistake?

 

somehow you don't see that your focus is on performance, and not faith in His grace - your performance - good or bad - does not get you anything with God, else all are doomed!

 

God said this:

 

Deu 14:26

(26)  And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

 

are you saying that God was wrong, because drinking is always wrong?  why would smoking be different?  

 

the fear of God is cast out by revelation of His love; fear is torment - fear is the tool of the devil!  are you saying that God will punish us for smoking, and that fear of His wrath is why we shouldn't smoke?  

 

where is holiness?  it is either in your faith in Jesus, or in your own flawless, perfect performance - not both.  which qualifies you for holiness - your actions or His grace???

If all your saying is true, then why did God say the following, and notice it's a statue that is forever. Notice what is said about holiness.

Leviticus 10:8-10

And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying,

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean.

 

how does this instruction to the priests invalidate God's instruction to the general population in Deu 14:26?

remember that God said both things to people under the law and not under grace (by their own choice) - are you under the law of Moses?  

 

 

Every one of us should have as our main focus walking in the Spirit.  There is no question that if we do that, we won't sin.  At the same time, it is still valid to ask if a particular thing is a sin.  If someone comes in here and asks if sex outside of marriage is a sin, though this is focusing on the flesh, it is a valid question, and the answer is yes.  At the same time, you are correct in saying that if every Christian would walk in the Spirit, focus on individual sins would not be necessary.  The reason these individual sins matter is because they are symptoms that one is not walking in the Spirit.  Back to the question in the OP.  Is smoking a sin?  I would say in my opinion it is.  Would someone walking in the Spirit smoke?  I would say in my opinion no.  Others may not agree, and that is fine, but the question remains a valid one. 

Gal 5:4

(4)  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

focus is the key; if you are focused on actions, whether it be one specifically identified as sinful by scripture such as sex outside of marriage, or one that isn't mentioned at all in scripture such as smoking - either way you are focused on the flesh - on what you judge to be right and wrong according to your own intellect, understanding and experience - and therefore you can not  be focused on God.

 

First of all, Paul was not speaking of moral laws.  He was dealing with people that were telling gentiles that they had to keep laws of separation that only applied to the Jews.  The same Paul goes in great lengths to give specific examples of sins that he states will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven, like in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10.  He also gives a similar list he refers to as sins of the flesh in Galatians.  The scripture you gave in no wise states it is wrong to ask if something is a sin, or to list sins.  Paul does that very thing in Galatians.  My question to you is, does that mean that Paul was not focused on God when he mentions a laundry list of sins?

 

IMO you've missed Paul's point; Paul is telling them that to put any degree of faith in your own performance is to reject grace - he was speaking to jews, and the example is circumcision, but the principle clearly applies to any effort to attain right standing with God to any degree based on your performance - this is confirmed by James:

 

 

Every one of us should have as our main focus walking in the Spirit.  There is no question that if we do that, we won't sin.  At the same time, it is still valid to ask if a particular thing is a sin.  If someone comes in here and asks if sex outside of marriage is a sin, though this is focusing on the flesh, it is a valid question, and the answer is yes.  At the same time, you are correct in saying that if every Christian would walk in the Spirit, focus on individual sins would not be necessary.  The reason these individual sins matter is because they are symptoms that one is not walking in the Spirit.  Back to the question in the OP.  Is smoking a sin?  I would say in my opinion it is.  Would someone walking in the Spirit smoke?  I would say in my opinion no.  Others may not agree, and that is fine, but the question remains a valid one. 

Gal 5:4

(4)  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

focus is the key; if you are focused on actions, whether it be one specifically identified as sinful by scripture such as sex outside of marriage, or one that isn't mentioned at all in scripture such as smoking - either way you are focused on the flesh - on what you judge to be right and wrong according to your own intellect, understanding and experience - and therefore you can not  be focused on God.

 

Care to address this from Shiloh?

 

By that logic, viewing pornography, spousal abuse and child molestation are not sins because there is no Scripture that says those things are not sins.  Your argument is hermeneutically unsustainable because the Bible doesn't list every possible sin that a person could commit.  Your argument is internally inconsistent.

 

 

i never said that only those actions specifically mentioned in scripture as sin, are sin, and everything else isn't; we aren't smart enough to interpret and apply the multitude of God's laws correctly in any given situation as evidenced by Mat 12:2-8.  it was not lawful from man's perspective for David to eat the shewbread which was reserved for the priests, or for the priests to do the work of killing and preparing the sacrifice on the sabbath - yet these examples are not examples of sin even though they seem to transgress the letter of those laws when interpreted as 'standalone' laws - this is clear evidence that only God can harmonize His laws and apply them correctly in any given situation, and that we must be led by Him

Every one of us should have as our main focus walking in the Spirit.  There is no question that if we do that, we won't sin.  At the same time, it is still valid to ask if a particular thing is a sin.  If someone comes in here and asks if sex outside of marriage is a sin, though this is focusing on the flesh, it is a valid question, and the answer is yes.  At the same time, you are correct in saying that if every Christian would walk in the Spirit, focus on individual sins would not be necessary.  The reason these individual sins matter is because they are symptoms that one is not walking in the Spirit.  Back to the question in the OP.  Is smoking a sin?  I would say in my opinion it is.  Would someone walking in the Spirit smoke?  I would say in my opinion no.  Others may not agree, and that is fine, but the question remains a valid one. 

When will this debate come to an end,

@dsiciplehelovestoo,you has been strongly following this topic,

likewise i myself and others,

all you want to hear or to see,

is a passage in the bible that says,

smoking tobaco is a sin,

and you has been busy qouting bible,

but you fail to understand that,

the word of God is like two edge sword,

you just quoted Deuteronomy 14:26"

Does it meaning that since the bible said we should use the money and buy and eat and do what ever our heart lusted after,

so if your heart lusted after a harlot who stays in a hotel,

does that mean that you are free to go and sleep with her,

since the bible says what soever your heart lusted after,

Dose that mean you are permited to go and drink and become drunk,

this question is very simple,

Is smoking tobaco a sin?

since we are serving the God of the bible,

and the entire christian race is center on the word of God,

the bible said we should not add or minus,

No passage in the bible that says smoking is a sin,

to answer this question base on bible,

we will never come to one agreement,

the bible did not talk about smoking directly,

if to get the answer from the bible,

both the people that says is a sin and not a sin are wrong,

no passage in the bibl that directly says that smoking is not a sin,

neither is there any passage that says smoking is a sin,

brother dsiciplehelovestoo,

shall we encourage every believer to smoke?

my reply to your other thread about "JESUS AND THE CRIMINALS ON THE CROSS" LUKE 23:32-43" aplies here as well.

"i think you're confused about the difference between works that are of the law and works that are of faith.

works that are of the law are works we do outside of God's leading; and are focused on our own performance; self-focused.  for example, the pharisees in Jesus day were the most outwardly holy people in that time, and indeed any 'traditional' church today would gladly embrace a pharisee from Jesus's day.  they gave methodically, carefully avoided any obvious transgression of the law and strictly observed the sacrifice requirements when they did transgress the law, they attended temple services 'religiously', prayed elegant prayers, corrected others who failed to meet their idea of the law's performance requirements - yet Jesus said they were like tombs full of death.  from the outside, they looked holy, but God does not judge by outward performance, He judges by the heart.  it was the reason that motivated the pharisees to carefully conform their actions to the law that was important to God; in their case, their motive was self-centered - to appear holy, to earn God's favor through their own performance - they were led by their own understanding of the law; they were not led by God, as was evident by their lack of focus on helping others (as opposed to their focus on correcting others for their wrong actions instead).

works of faith often look similar at first glance, as God certainly leads people to act in accordance with His laws - to give, to avoid wrong actions, to fellowship with other true believers, to pray; but there is one major difference that can be 'seen' - works of faith show selfless love to others; this was not true of the pharisees.  works of faith seek to bring others into fellowship with God based on faith in His grace, not conformance to rules.  i have a friend who has been told by the medical industry that he has terminal bladder cancer, and will die soon. when he told me about this, he followed it by saying 'but they don't know that i was healed by the stripes of Jesus'.  he told me that he does not fear death, but will fight to reject this cancer invasion of his God-healed body in order to be a witness to others to believe God and receive their healings; where most people would be far more focused on not missing out on their own potential future happiness - his focus is self-less, not self-ish.  he speaks to his mountain of cancer, and is careful to speak life over himself; has regained his strength and returned to work, and continues to plan and prepare to help others in the future, rather than seek his own fleshly fulfillment by doing things he enjoys while he still can (which would be most people's focus when faced with the 'report' that they will die soon).

the greatest confession of faith is the selfless acts of love we do toward others who can't repay us and may hate us; anyone can parrrot the sinner's prayer and conform to rules, but you must be led by God to be a selfless blessing to others who may hate you anyway."

there are many pharisees with us today; people who are focused on conformance to rules and lwas, often that have no clear basis in scripture.  the reason that skoking isn't mentioned in scripture is that what is mentioned is sufficient to condemn anyone and everyone except Jesus according to performance; the law was given for two reasons:

-to be a harsh schooolmaster that would casue us to despair of keeping it and place faith in God's mercy through Jesus and grace toward us instead (Gal 3:21-24).  now this doesn't mean that the law isn't just and right; it means that we can't keep it by our own strength; we can fulfill the law only as effectivelty as we are led by God in each situation.

-to serve as confirmation of God's situational leading (2Ti 3:16, 17).

God never intended that people focus on the law; we aren't smart enough to apply the multitude of God's laws correctly in any given situation (Mat 12:2-8); but once we 'rest' from striving to conform to His laws and strive instead to be led by Him in each situation, the law becomes a second witness to the leading of the Holy Spirit in each situation - to the extent that we have received the true meaning of His word through fellowship with Him based exclusively on faith in His grace rather than according to our own intellect, understanding, and experience.

to be focused on smoking is to be mindful of the flesh; whether it is your own smoking or someone else's - either way the focus is on the flesh - these are two sides of the same coin.  but if you are focused on being led by God in each situation, you will automatically conform more and more in your flesh to God's laws as you are  led by Him more and more.  and you will not be focused on other people's works of the flesh good or bad, but rather on bringing them into fellowship with God and being led by Him, which will produce an effortless reduction of transgressions of the law, and a corresponding increase in outward holiness, effortlessly.  

so to ask the question 'is smoking a sin' is error because it is mindful of or focused on the flesh - the right question to ask when focused on whether or not an outward action is sin, is 'how can i bring my focus back to God's leading of the moment?'

 

 

Luke 23:32-43" this very passage in the bible tell us about [2] two criminals,that where crucified along with Jesus,

from my own understanding,this two criminals has been sentence to death,

and the bible made us to understand that anybody that die in sin, will not make heaven,

I believe this two guys are on there way to hell fire,

But something happened on the cross,

the bible said in vers 39"

One of the criminals, who hung there hurled insults at him: Aren't you the Christ? save yourself and us,

40" But the other criminal rebuke him, Don't you fear God, he said, since you are under the same sentence?

41"we are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve,but this man has done nothing wrong,

42" Then he said, Jesus remember me,when you come into your kingdom.

43" Jesus answered him,I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise,

what do you guys understand by what Jesus said,

does it mean that the statement one of the criminal made,or was that a confession?” automatically make Jesus to assured him a place in heaven,

does the paradise mean heaven?

does the promise of Jesus to the one of the criminal,

means that all his sins are forgiving¿,

do you guys think it is right to say, by the reason of the promise of Jesus to the criminal,he made it to heaven at last,

Does the paradise Jesus promise the criminal mean heaven?

paradise is not another word for hell

Joh 3:14-16

(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

look at the example Jesus referred to in verse 14 - and you should see that it is believing that saves, not confessing (confession follows believing, it does not cause belief):

Num 21:5-9

(5) And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.

(6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

(7) Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

(8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

(9) And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

think about this; the people of israel are overrun with poisonous snakes - how easy would it be to look away from the snales crawling around you feet and instead look at a dummy snake on a stick? you could only do this if you first believed God's word that doing so would save you

it's what's in the heart that counts; not outward actions

I have been reading some of your replies,

and i have really come to understand that,you strongly believe so much,

that christianity is much more about the heart,than outwardly action,

but i want to let you know that,there are some people that can qoutes the bible,from genesis to revelation,

yet they don't have link with God,

they do eyes service,

they flatter God with their lips but their heatr is far from,

that is why the bible said by their fruits we shall know them,

believe brings confession,

quiet alright,

but can believe alone,save someone?

there is a harlot that i knows very will,

she live in a hotel,

but she hardly miss Church service,

if you see her inside a church,

you will not believe that she is a prostitute,

what do you think of her,if she did not believe,i don't think she will be going to church service.

i was only trying to point out something here,

can believing alone without good fruits that people can see save someone?

only God knows the heart of everybody.

I believe Jesus knows the heart those two criminals.

i will like to know your opinion about this very prostitute that i state her chrstian life above,

can believing alone save someone?

 

i think you're confused about the difference between works that are of the law and works that are of faith.

works that are of the law are works we do outside of God's leading; and are focused on our own performance; self-focused.  for example, the pharisees in Jesus day were the most outwardly holy people in that time, and indeed any 'traditional' church today would gladly embrace a pharisee from Jesus's day.  they gave methodically, carefully avoided any obvious transgression of the law and strictly observed the sacrifice requirements when they did transgress the law, they attended temple services 'religiously', prayed elegant prayers, corrected others who failed to meet their idea of the law's performance requirements - yet Jesus said they were like tombs full of death.  from the outside, they looked holy, but God does not judge by outward performance, He judges by the heart.  it was the reason that motivated the pharisees to carefully conform their actions to the law that was important to God; in their case, their motive was self-centered - to appear holy, to earn God's favor through their own performance - they were led by their own understanding of the law; they were not led by God, as was evident by their lack of focus on helping others (as opposed to their focus on correcting others for their wrong actions instead).

works of faith often look similar at first glance, as God certainly leads people to act in accordance with His laws - to give, to avoid wrong actions, to fellowship with other true believers, to pray; but there is one major difference that can be 'seen' - works of faith show selfless love to others; this was not true of the pharisees.  works of faith seek to bring others into fellowship with God based on faith in His grace, not conformance to rules.  i have a friend who has been told by the medical industry that he has terminal bladder cancer, and will die soon. when he told me about this, he followed it by saying 'but they don't know that i was healed by the stripes of Jesus'.  he told me that he does not fear death, but will fight to reject this cancer invasion of his God-healed body in order to be a witness to others to believe God and receive their healings; where most people would be far more focused on not missing out on their own potential future happiness - his focus is self-less, not self-ish.  he speaks to his mountain of cancer, and is careful to speak life over himself; has regained his strength and returned to work, and continues to plan and prepare to help others in the future, rather than seek his own fleshly fulfillment by doing things he enjoys while he still can (which would be most people's focus when faced with the 'report' that they will die soon).

as for the woman you have judged to be a prostitute, you haven't given me enough information to even make a guess as to whether she is reborn in Christ; all you have told me relates to how she performs or fails to perform according to the law - you've said nothing of how she treats others; your focus is on works of the law, and not works of faith.

the greatest confession of faith is the selfless acts of love we do toward others who can't repay us and may hate us; anyone can parrrot the sinner's prayer and conform to rules, but you must be led by God to be a selfless blessing to others who may hate you anyway.

 

Smoking is a fleshly act, a lust of the flesh.

1John 2:16

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

Smoking is a holiness issue, period. I do not agree with the belief that we can't say anything is wrong. I do understand though, that only the Holy Spirit can convince, and it's not my job to convince anyone of anything. I personally find it greatly disturbing that some may find nothing wrong with following fleshly lusts of drinking and smoking while your suppose to be serving God. Where is the Holy fear of God????? Where is the Holiness?????

 

you mean IN YOUR OPINION smoking is a flesh act - you have no scripture about smoking, do you?  THIS is what is in question.  where is the scripture about smoking?  did God not foresee that this issue would come up?  did He leave this 'crucial' wrong action un-addressed in scripture by mistake?

are you saying that God was wrong, because drinking is always wrong?  why would smoking be different?  

the fear of God is cast out by revelation of His love; fear is torment - fear is the tool of the devil!  are you saying that God will punish us for smoking, and that fear of His wrath is why we shouldn't smoke?  

where is holiness?  it is either in your faith in Jesus, or in your own flawless, perfect performance - not both.  which qualifies you for holiness - your actions or His grace???

Now concerning smoking,the bible did not directly say christian should not smoke,neither did the bible encourage a christian to smoke,

Dearly beloved,i beseech you as a stranger and pilgrims,abstain from fleshly lusts,which war against the soul.

1 peter 2:11"

I QUOTES

words spoken directly to me from God,concerning smoking and receiving healing,

before i stoped smoking,

God spoke very clear to me 24 years ago,when i needed a healing,

God asked me....how can i heal one part of you,

when you are damanging another?

i know exactly what He meanlt,

He meanlt,how can He heal one part of me,when iam damanging another with smoking,

God is saying that smoking is such irresponsible care to the body that He gave us,

i believe that this is a direct revelation from God and fact that He does not want His people to smoke,

and possible smoking hinders us from receiving God's total healings.

you believe smoking is wrong for you, so for you it is sin.  another believes it is not a problem, so for him it isn't sin; what i believe about smoking is of no importance to what you or someone else believes, because there is no clear scripture about this; each person must be led by God in such cases.  i drew the comparison of driving in a car and exposing one's self to exhaust for the sake of convenience - while smoking is believed by science to be more effectively deadly than exposure to exhaust fumes, both are believed to be deadly by science; so to say one is a sin because it's harmful to the body is to say that the other is a sin because it's harmful to the body - this is a hypocritical argument otherwise, and it is not clearly based in scripture.

but you still don't see my point; your focus is on actions, your focus is on law - not faith in grace.  

notice what the pharisees asked?  not why do the disciples transgress the law (scripture), but why do the disciples transgress the traditions of the elders.  the reason they asked the question this way was that scripture doesn't say that not washing hands before eating is a sin.

so why don't people smoke in church?  because the bible clearly says not to?  no - because it transgressions the traditions of the elders of the traditional church today.  and this varies from place to place.  Andrew Womack speaks about preaching in europe to a church of God-loving saved people who drank beer during the service as a tradition, but believed smoking would send people to hell; and he preached in a different part of europe where God-loving saved people smoked in church during the service and believed that drinking beer would send people to hell - this is what elevating tradition to be equal to scripture leads to - ridiculous rules that do not lead people to faith in grace, but burden them with ridiculous performance goals instead.

look at what Jesus said to those pharisees that were so sure that eating without washing hands was sin:

 

 

 

Jerry - you are misquoting me -  i never said that smoking is not a sin, nor did i say it is a sin - i said that Romans 14:21-23 applies - that there is no clear cut answer to this question from scripture.

 

that is poor hermeneutics.  Smoking destroys the body.  Romans 14 21-23 doesn't apply to something self-desructive.

 

 

others offered scripture to support the belief that smoking is a sin, and i looked at those scriptures in context and believe the context proves that they don't mean what tradition says they do about physical things defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit which is the body.  

 

Those Scriptures you posted are part of a behavioral paradigm that deals with anything that are adverse to our bodies as temples of the Holy Spirit.  It transcends sexual immorality and easily applies to self-destructive actions.

 

those who say that smoking is clearly a sin are focused on actions, not heart intent.  God is focused on heart intent, because as the heart changes the actions change automatically.  to say that smoking is a sin is to actually strengthen it, because you are laying down a law, and sin revives when the law comes.  i'm sorry you don't see this.

 

That is completely false.  Sin brings nothing but destruction and smoking is destructive to the body. One cannot present their bodies as living sacrifices that are acceptable to the Lord as they destroy their bodies.   God is as much concerned about what we do as He is about what is in our hearts.  You draw a false and unscriptural dichotomy.

 

 

Rom 11:1-36

(1)  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

(2)  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

(3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

(4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

(5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

(6)  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

(7)  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

(8)  (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

(9)  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

(10)  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

(11)  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

(12)  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

(13)  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

(14)  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

(15)  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

(16)  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

(17)  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

(18)  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

(19)  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

(20)  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

(21)  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

(22)  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(23)  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

(24)  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

(25)  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(26)  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(27)  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

(28)  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

(29)  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

(30)  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

(31)  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

(32)  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

(33)  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

(34)  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

(35)  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

(36)  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

Rom 12:1-3

(1)  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(2)  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

(3)  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

the word therefore links this verse, to which i assume you refer, to what has been said in the verses prior to it - there is no mention whatsoever of physical habits here - the context is faith versus unbelief - the context is the state of the heart, not the physical body.  

 

you can voice all the opinion you wish, but mark this - in your next response, you will either respond with clear scripture taken in context to justify your view, or prove yourself to be in error by the lack of clear scripture taken in context to justify your view

 

Smoking isn't mentioned in the Bible,  but we have to address it from a biblical perspective.   That is why when I did post Scripture earlier in this thread, I pointed to the fact that the Bible establishes a paradigm through which we can judge behaviors that Scripture doesn't directly address.  That is part of the genius of how Scripture is constructed.

 

I have already acknowledged the immediate and literary contexts of the passages you present, but I also point to the fact that we are able to extrapolate from those passages, instruction about behavior that isn't directly addressed in Scripture.

 

So, I have provided plenty of Scripture to make my point in other posts, so there is no need on your part to pretend that I am just putting forth opinion with any Scripture. 

 

There is no context for smoking in Scripture, but that doesn't mean we can't address the issue with the light the Bible has already provided in terms of how we should avoid self-destructive behaviors.

 

 

Rom 12:1-3

(1)  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

(2)  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

(3)  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

the word therefore links this verse, to which i assume you refer, to what has been said in the verses prior to it - there is no mention whatsoever of physical habits here - the context is faith versus unbelief - the context is the state of the heart, not the physical body. 

 

You need to pay better attention to that passage.  He says to present your bodies (not just your heart)  as living sacrifices.  This refers to everything we do in our bodies and that would include physical habits. Our bodies are to be a holy and acceptable sacrifice to the Lord and that means we should not be subjecting our bodies to abusive or destructive behaviors which includes, but is not limited to smoking.

 

faith is based on God's word; you have many opinions, but no word of God to base your opinions on.  the meaning here is to offer one's whole self to God.  no one is perfect in their flesh - surely you aren't saying that this sacrifice must be perfect, or that you qualify.  you need to be careful to use your skills in vocabulary and written communications to lead people to God's word instead of your own religious opinions.

no doubt you will have a response; but until you offer scripture to ground what you say, i will not hear you.

Luke 23:32-43" this very passage in the bible tell us about [2] two criminals,that where crucified along with Jesus,

from my own understanding,this two criminals has been sentence to death,

and the bible made us to understand that anybody that die in sin, will not make heaven,

I believe this two guys are on there way to hell fire,

But something happened on the cross,

the bible said in vers 39"

One of the criminals, who hung there hurled insults at him: Aren't you the Christ? save yourself and us,

40" But the other criminal rebuke him, Don't you fear God, he said, since you are under the same sentence?

41"we are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve,but this man has done nothing wrong,

42" Then he said, Jesus remember me,when you come into your kingdom.

43" Jesus answered him,I tell you the truth,today you will be with me in paradise,

what do you guys understand by what Jesus said,

does it mean that the statement one of the criminal made,or was that a confession?” automatically make Jesus to assured him a place in heaven,

does the paradise mean heaven?

does the promise of Jesus to the one of the criminal,

means that all his sins are forgiving¿,

do you guys think it is right to say, by the reason of the promise of Jesus to the criminal,he made it to heaven at last,

Does the paradise Jesus promise the criminal mean heaven?

paradise is not another word for hell

it's what's in the heart that counts; not outward actions

 

Jerry - you are misquoting me -  i never said that smoking is not a sin, nor did i say it is a sin - i said that Romans 14:21-23 applies - that there is no clear cut answer to this question from scripture.

 

that is poor hermeneutics.  Smoking destroys the body.  Romans 14 21-23 doesn't apply to something self-desructive.

 

 

others offered scripture to support the belief that smoking is a sin, and i looked at those scriptures in context and believe the context proves that they don't mean what tradition says they do about physical things defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit which is the body.  

 

Those Scriptures you posted are part of a behavioral paradigm that deals with anything that are adverse to our bodies as temples of the Holy Spirit.  It transcends sexual immorality and easily applies to self-destructive actions.

 

those who say that smoking is clearly a sin are focused on actions, not heart intent.  God is focused on heart intent, because as the heart changes the actions change automatically.  to say that smoking is a sin is to actually strengthen it, because you are laying down a law, and sin revives when the law comes.  i'm sorry you don't see this.

 

That is completely false.  Sin brings nothing but destruction and smoking is destructive to the body. One cannot present their bodies as living sacrifices that are acceptable to the Lord as they destroy their bodies.   God is as much concerned about what we do as He is about what is in our hearts.  You draw a false and unscriptural dichotomy.

 

Rom 11:1-36

@disciplehelovestoo,

you have a very strong believe that,

smoking is not a sin,

even to the extend in saying that the person that asked the question is wrong,

if it happen that the question goes like this,

does it make sense for a believer to smoke?

Does bible support smoking?

can Holy Spirit ask a believer to smoke?

can Holy Spirit ask a believer to stop smoking?

generally we know that tobaco is dangerous to our health,

why then supporting what is not good for our health,

if any believer that newly gave his life to christ,

and he is struggling to quit smoking,

just because it is not generally supported,for a believer to smoke,

and the Holy Spirit directed him on this site,

and he look into this thread and the replies,

he will simple believe that,

it is wise to smoke,

the last thing i will do is to encourage a believer to smoke,

God forbid,

i will only encourage a believer to quit,

with God all things are possible,

anything that has a begining will surely have an end.

it is just a matter of time and prayers,

whether smoking is a sin or not,

whether it is right or wrong for a believer to smoke,

but all of us know that it is very bad to our health.

even the person that asked the question know that,

know where in the bible that says,

smoking tobaco is a sin,

that was why he ask the question,

the bible said that anybody that knows what is good and refuse to do it,the bible said it is a sin to that person.

 

Jerry - you are misquoting me -  i never said that smoking is not a sin, nor did i say it is a sin - i said that Romans 14:21-23 applies - that there is no clear cut answer to this question from scripture.  others offered scripture to support the belief that smoking is a sin, and i looked at those scriptures in context and believe the context proves that they don't mean what tradition says they do about physical things defiling the temple of the Holy Spirit which is the body.  

please be more careful; if you think i said something, then copy it out of my post(s) and quote it to me, don't assume you know what i mean - you can't see my heart nor read my mind.  

you have made a number of assumptions and accusations in this post - but where is the scripture???  not a verse taken out of context, but clear scripture taken in context that deals with this subject?  

those who say that smoking is clearly a sin are focused on actions, not heart intent.  God is focused on heart intent, because as the heart changes the actions change automatically.  to say that smoking is a sin is to actually strengthen it, because you are laying down a law, and sin revives when the law comes.  i'm sorry you don't see this.

well, we also obviously don't agree, but i still love you too Brother!

well, we obviously don't agree, but i still love you Brother!

ok, since you insist, here ya go:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9209597/Exhaust-fumes-are-twice-as-deadly-as-roads-study-claims.html

(http ://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9209597/ Exhaust fumes are twice as deadly as roads study claims.html - from MIT btw)

there's nothing completely safe or pure in this physical world; there's germs on your doctor's rubber gloves from the factory; there's pollutants in the cleanest air you can find on the planet.  so if smoking is a sin because it defiles your physical body with some degree of pollutants, then by that reasoning, breathing is a sin because that also defiles your physical body with pollutants - the argument that science hasn't linked breathing with lung cancer is no justification that smoking is a sin simply because they HAVE linked smoking with lung cancer - science does not interpret scripture (and many people die of lung cancer that never smoked, or were around smokers, or were around automobiles, or asbestos, etc.)

whenever you focus on actions, you are in error because your focus is on what you perceive through your senses and not on what God is leading you to do or not do - the only way to walk by the Spirit is to be led by God.  to ask the question 'is smoking a sin' is error to begin with; as we aren't smart enough to decide this for ourselves - we MUST be led by God; to be led by anything else (including scientific studies) is the essence of sin.

In that scripture about defiling the temple, it never comes out and says what that means.  To me, it means doing anything that defiles your body, period.  I personally believe smoking defiles your body, so from my vantage point, smoking is a sin.  I do not believe this in any way, shape or form contradicts anything Jesus said.  If you want to talk about context, Jesus was speaking of one's hands not being washed before eating, and the possibility of some dirt mixing with food.  I could come up with some examples that would prove that Jesus comments weren't all encompassing, but I am not going to go that far in a Christian forum to prove my position. 

 

BTW, it is absurd to say that since we breathe in fumes going down the highway, that is the equal of smoking.  I don't even believe being around second hand smoke is the equal of smoking.  There is no link between driving a car and lung cancer.  There is a possible link in cancer if you continuously breathe fumes while pumping fuel, and that is why they have those rubber things over the end of the hoses now.  Making comparisons like that mean nothing anyway.  It is a separate issue.  If you want to start another thread asking if it is a sin to drive a car, go for it, but it has no bearing on whether or not it is a sin to smoke.  It is just like the obesity issue.  Saying it is a sin to over eat doesn't make smoking more or less sinful. 

you are free to believe what you choose; as is the smoker, the non-smoker, and we who use the highway; but to pluck a scripture out of context is a dangerous thing IMO.  So, Jesus was speaking of washing hands, and the context is that you might eat some dirt - what has that got to do with defiling a man?  you say there is no link between exhaust and illness; yet many who get lung cancer never smoked or worked around asbestos; there is no question that exhaust fumes are bad to breathe; this has been proven - at what point does breathing these fumes as a sacrifice to convenience become a sin?  when science links the two to a terminal illness?  surely science does not interpret scripture...