Osterloh

Aaah, the Hamiltonian knows a few salvation verses, but ignores all others! Impressive.

Did thou readest them? Did thou notest there was nothing said about rewards in any of them?

Matt 5:29-30, Matt 18:8-9, Mark 9:43-48 • “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.” Matt 10:22, Mark 13:13 • “And you will be hated (re: end-times persecution) by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.” Matt 19:16-17, Mark 10:17-21, Luke 10:25-28 • “… what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? … if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Matt 25:45-46 • “… inasmuch as you did not do it (good works/deeds) to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Luke 9:23-25 • “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost?” John 3:16-36 • “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life … He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 5:24 • “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” John 10:27-28 • “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” John 12:25 • “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.” Rom 2:5-11 • “God, who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,” Rom 6:16-23 • “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness … For the wages of sin is death …” Rom 8:3-7 • “He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” Rom 8:13-14 • “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” Rom 10:9-10 • “… that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” 1 Cor 15:1-2 • “Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.” 2 Cor 7:8-10 • “For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it … that your sorrow led to repentance … For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted …” Gal 6:7-8 • “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.” 1 Tim 4:16 • “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.” 1 Tim 6:9-19 • The greedy and the rich (in the church) are warned to stop, and to lay hold on eternal life! Heb 6:4-6 • “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” James 1:12-15 • “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.” 1 Pet 1:5-9 • “… you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith … though it is tested by fire, may be found to (be worthy of) praise … receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.” 2 Pet 2:20 • “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning (which was eternal death).” Jude 1:20-21 • “But you, beloved … keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” 1 John 3:15 • “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Rev 2:10-11 • “Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested … Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” Rev 21:7-8 • “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Yes, congratulations, this is the traditional feel-good message taught in the Laodicean churches today! It places NO obligation on the believer to put away sin, and etc. ... because it is a feel-good message. Think I said that already.

Greetings from one originally from TO. Unfortunately, you just do not quite understand what it means to be "in Christ", etc. And the proof is ... Do all BACs walk according to the Spirit? Sorry, but many walk according to the flesh (thinking they are saved). I believe we should start another thread about this.

Yes, you are correct, it has already happened to a great degree. John Shorey, one whom I consider to be an end-times teacher from the Lord recently has said that the absence of a pre-trib rapture will be the undoing of many pre-tribulationists. So, more falling away! He, and several others on Christian internet radio, have agreed that: Those who are close to the Lord and who stand firm because they are really trusting in Him will be miraculously protected during these coming perilous times! He is more than able to do this. And this fits in with the passage below about the end of unbelievers and cowards. WOW! Rev 21:7-8 “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. BUT, the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” And people actually preach to me that "overcoming" just means to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. No, we have to overcome like Jesus overcame ... see Rev 3:21.

Greetings, Kwik ... Jack be nimble, Jack be Kwik ... so, is Jack your first or last name? From your photo, I'd guess it's your sir name. I'll only give you 2 examples now: 1) Anti-OSAS proofs, sentiments, opinions, etc. are very upsetting to some people. 2) Being told what the baptism with the Holy Spirit is can produce very unhealthy negativity such as envy, frustration, even disbelief ... in those who don't have it.

What I post is certainly open to discussion by everyone. However, this only works properly if members actually understand what other members are saying.

Now, let's see who's ready for Part 2 of the OP. Yes, the great tribulation comes before Jesus raptures His bride Matthew 24 (NKJV): 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. A warning which is NOT only for pre-tribulationists Revelation 21 (NKJV): 7 He who overcomes (sorry, not 1 John 5:5) shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Any cowardly Christian can decide to fall away from the church, and avoid the horrendous Satanically-inspired persecution (even unto death) coming upon them! Any cowardly Christian can decide to NOT endure with his faith until his death. Any cowardly Christian can decide to take the mark of the beast in order to survive. Sorry, but all of this is more than possible!

Recently, I heard a Spirit-filled Christian leader on internet radio explain with examples that God historically has always punished man ONLY through His heavenly bodies! So, even bad weather is open to scrutiny as to whether it is punishment from God. Perhaps man's heavy-duty weather modifications have caused the recent natural disasters (even the earthquakes and volcanoes?). Satan is "the god/ruler of this world/age" (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4). We all know that God has allowed him certain liberties with us, but only when it suits His purposes.

Yes, for some reason most of the dire warnings in the NT are somewhat veiled. The spiritual truth that one may fall away (or even reject) his salvation is not shouted from the rooftops. Similar to Jesus not shouting from the hill tops, "I am God". IMO, God desires some of these truths to be revealed ONLY through the Spirit. One reason is that some of these truths are too UPSETTING to some believers.

I'm sure you've heard ... Man is intelligent enough to rationalize all kinds of stuff, and to come up with all kinds of doctrines from Scripture. So, Praise God for man's intelligence (compared to that of the animals). Don't know if I can say the same about man's free will ... because with that ... Man can choose to habitually sin and receive eternal death (separation from God). BACs included (ref: Romans 6, my favorite "hidden proof" passage).

Please provide scripture that points to the anti-christ causing the tribulation. I would argue that man causes the tribulation, which sets up an opportunity for Satan to try and take control. Causes or does, you choose! ... For me, it's both. Matthew 24 (NKJV) The Great Tribulation 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation’, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

One light ... just because they are pre-trib believers, that does not equate to them being a coward. I believe there will be many who turn from the truth and not because of their stance in the rapture, but because their lack of true faith. Again, I never meant to say what you are interpreting. IMO, some of every imaginable persuasion will be cowards, and run from the persecution and run towards taking the mark. Please note that the word "every" must include pre-tribbers.

By "the whole book" perhaps you mean the whole Bible, and I would agree. But, surely you don't mean that applies to pre-tribbers (for there is absolutely no sin in being one). IMO, Scripture makes it clear that the rapture does not occur at either end (fore or aft), but somewhere in the middle of the great tribulation. A clarification for those of you who have not read/understood what I have written: -- the antichrist causes the tribulation -- many pre-tribbers are totally unprepared and shocked at what they are going through -- so, many of these fall away from the faith -- Rev 21:8 speaks of "the cowardly" being thrown into the lake of fire ... which agrees with several other passages that say one must endure in his faith until the end of life to receive eternal life. -- I am asking: could this "cowardly" refer to people who fall away from the faith during the great tribulation?

Please slow down and read carefully what I have written ... because you have grossly misunderstood it, and mislabelled me as well.

Yes, and please note the tricky words in blue. Now, you are claiming that the passage only applies to true BACs, and thou art correct. Now, I am claiming that the passage does not say "follow Me all of the time without fail" ... because the flesh and free will are involved. And I am also claiming that we are both correct. But, am I claiming correctly?

Thank you both for sharing your views! I guess we could ask what percentage out of a huge number of Christians is “many”? And how many will be totally caught off guard and unprepared? And how many will be cowards and choose to run, trying to save their lives? And how many will choose to take the mark instead of starving to death? Re: being cowards, do you think this applies? … Revelation 21:7-8 (NKJV): “He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV): "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Everyone believes the antichrist comes and causes the great tribulation. Then this will cause the falling away (apostacy). This great falling away from the church is the result of many pre-tribulation believers NOT being prepared in any way for the horrendous persecution that will be coming upon them! Many of these many will NOT endure with their faith until the end of their lives. Many of these many will NOT refuse to take the mark of the beast. Scriptures are available upon request regarding … the warnings that both of these causes loss of salvation! All of this happens before Jesus comes to rapture His bride (in verse 1).

So you believe all Born Again Christians (BAC?) must have the evidence of the Holy Spirit which you believe is speaking in tongues? How do you justify this according to Scripture? No, no, sorry for the misunderstanding! BACs have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them (many ref.). But, Jesus chooses some BACs to be anointed with the Holy Spirit for special tasks, and He sends the Spirit to rest "upon" these BACs (similar to His coming upon the prophets in the OT). This is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit. The evidence to the church that this has happened to someone is a few (or many) tongues. (Beyond that, tongues is just 1 of the 9 spiritual power gifts.) The church was always supposed to remain like the NT church. And all of the leaders (in the 5-fold ministry) had this baptism of spiritual power. As did most of the BAC members who were not in leadership positions.

Okay, has Sony officially spoken, or just you?

Yes of course there are spiritual gifts other than the 9 spiritual power gifts. IMO, the anointing given to those chosen for the 5-fold ministry are not so much gifts as they appointments to leadership.

James 1:12-15 • “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. … But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth (eternal) death.” So, the ones who endure the temptations to sin are martyrs? They can't be martyrs for any other reasons?

I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that all threads must contain a question. Perhaps in my case the question implied is: "Do you agree with the OP, or not?" Re: the verses at the end of the OP ... Continued righteous living is necessary to keep one's righteousness (eternal life). There are multitudes of warnings that one can choose to fall away from the faith and thus lose their salvation.

An appetizer ... From The Applied New Testament Commentary (Thomas Hale): “The believer who perseveres will receive the crown of life. The “crown of life” is the crown of victory over sin, or the crown of victory in our life’s race. The main meaning of the crown of life is salvation, or eternal life (see Mark 13:13).” James 1:12-15 • “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. … But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth (eternal) death.” We all know that sin results in both physical and spiritual death (Romans 5:12-20, Romans 6:23, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22, etc.) Please note the 2 opposites above: No sinning results in the crown of life … sinning results in eternal death! Rev 2:10-11 • “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” He who is faithful until death will receive the crown of life. Mark 13:13, etc. (below) promises eternal life to him who endures with his faith until death. The second death is eternal death (Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8). If one overcomes by being faithful until the end, he does not experience eternal death, but instead he receives the crown of life … he experiences eternal life (salvation). Mark 13:13 • “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures (in his faith) to the end (of his life) shall be saved.” Confirmations: 1 Cor 16:13, Gal 5:1, Phil 4:1, Col 1:22-23, Heb 10:35-36, James 5:7-8, 1 Pet 5:9 2 Tim 4:7-8 • “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” So, why is not the crown of righteousness the same as the crown of life? Our imputed righteousness must be practiced (i.e. continued) in order to maintain (keep) that righteousness … “… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35) “… you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to (eternal) death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (Romans 6:16) “… the kingdom of God is … righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.” (Rom 14:16-18) “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7) Scripture teaches us that “the crown of life” means salvation (eternal life).