dscapp

Spirit bodies huh. Ok, prove to me that our spirits go to the third heaven to be with the Lord after we die. You're not listening to what I'm saying. In Luke 23:43, the original text of the Holy Bible did not have punctuation. Punctuation did not exist when the Bible was written. Are you with me so far? Translators added commas and punctuation many years later have Christ died. I am not a Bible translator. You keep accusing me that I'm doing injustice, but you're pointing the finger at the wrong person. Do you understand what we're discussing here axe.

Yes, and when Christ appears it will be at the first resurrection. This will be the first time dead believers will meet Jesus. No axe, punctuation not existing in the original text is a fact of history. Translators are the ones who are wrong. I didn't put punctuation in Luke 23:43, translators did.

Yeah but there were no commas in the original text, punctuation didn't exist until many years after Christ. I believe Jesus was simply using words of comfort to the thief since they were both dying. All the thief wanted from Jesus was for Jesus to remember him, being in the kingdom today was not on his mind, emphasizing (today) was simply comforting words. It's basically translator bias. Luke 23:43/Comma after today - Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43/Original Text - Jesus answered him Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.

No, you have that backwards. Translators, not Jesus used the word hell as a metaphor to describe Gehenna which is a real place in Jerusalem. Hell is an English translation, Gehenna is (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom is (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish is Gehinnam. If the Holy Spirit dwells within us and the fire of the Holy Spirit dwells within us, then why would the wrath of God not dwell within nonbelievers. (Matt 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.) Then I come across passages like these, Ps 11:6 On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot. Rev 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. Which has me thinking. Are these fiery coals and burning sulfur the same kind of intense heat we feel when we put our hand over a stove??

No that's not what Paul is saying. Paul is speaking about the condition of the heart and how it yearns for the Lord (we would rather). Also note that he never gives a timeline. Jesus is God. Jesus was not a regular person. He had God qualities that we do not possess. The reason he came back to us and eat, walk etc..is to show us that he conquered the grave, simply put. Also note that when Jesus was resurrected his body disappeared from his tomb. The bodies of regular people are still in their grave however.

No, Jeremiah gave us details of where this hellfire will be. It's also not hellfire like the fire we experience when we burn our fingers on the stove. The fire God describes is spiritual and within.

38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." (Jer 31:38-40 NKJ)

Truth.

Nice. Good scripture Butch5! Thanks! Yeah man, you really came through on that. Now one must have a strong case for temporary hell and we're all set. We'll get there.

Let's take a look at these words..Hell, Gehenna, Lake of Fire, Hades 1. The word hell is simply used as a metaphor to describe separation from God. 2. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place in the afterlife described with two different names. 3. Hades is the abode of the dead and the grave for ALL people, it is not considered hell. 4. Out of those last three places, hell is best described as Gehenna/Lake of Fire. Isa 66:24, Jesus was painting what is called a picture imagery of what it feels like to be separated from God. But that specific place in Jerusulum will eventually be main Holy to the Lord. Jeremiah's prophecy that Gehenna will be made holy to the Lord. 38 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The surveyor's line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever." (Jer 31:38-40 NKJ)

But that's Jesus. Jesus is God. Jesus was not a regular person. He had God qualities that we do not possess. The reason he came back to us and eat, walk etc..is to show us that he conquered the grave, simply put. Also note that when Jesus was resurrected his body disappeared from his tomb. The bodies of regular people are still in their grave however. Say again?

Looks like people have mixed feelings here. Interesting. Does post 2 have any thoughts.

So they're walking around without a body, but they're not spirit ghosts? Hmm. How are they walking around without legs.

But their body is still in the grave, without the body they are spirit ghosts walking around. And that's not what God's word teaches. Their spirit goes back to the Lord, not their soul.

I agree that it was a demon in disguise too, but this demon told the truth.. Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

Because dead souls are sleeping in their graves right now until these events come to pass..(6th seal the second coming of Christ/first resurrection/rapture). When people say that soul sleep is false haven't interpreted scripture properly. Getting the timeline down really is important.

Nice. Good scripture Butch5!

Yes, and it's clear that it's a vision. A little while longer is not long. The Bible doesn't state how long it will take between the 5th seal and the sixth seal. The full number of their fellow servants will be fulfilled right after the 6th seal is open. The sixth seal is the second coming of Christ, first resurrection and rapture combined. Where does it say they are alive in spirit before God??

What are your thoughts of hell being temporary and life with Christ being forever. There seems to be some confusion with this, since both are referring to afterlife. How do we know life with Christ will be forever since hell is not.

Spirit ghosts walking around in the third heaven is hollywood deception axe. Sure, scripture tells us that this mark on their hands occurs in the great tribulation during the reign of the antichrist. Rapture also occurs inside the great tribulation. Rev 20:4-6 is a vision OneLight. It's a vision of martyrdom throughout time, the great tribulation and the 1,000 year reign. What's the definition of a vision to you. For some reason christians have a hard time understanding the meaning of what a vision is, and that's vital in the christian walk. Scripture plainly tells us that the 5th seal is speaking of past and future martyrdom. Rev 6 When he opened the fifth seal, (I saw [VISION]) under the altar the souls of those who (had been [PAST AND FUTURE]) slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until [FUTURE] the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

You are the one discussing the subject brother, you tell me..... Ego's and belief systems.

Rev 20:4-6 is speaking of two events that will occur probably within minutes of each other, the first resurrection and then the rapture of the church. The first resurrection are those who are dead in Christ along with the beheaded. The rapture are those who are still alive along with those who refused the mark. Two sets of people here inside back to back events. Paul is speaking about the condition of the heart in 2 Cor 5:8. The dead know nothing right now, so for them it will be instant. The 5th seal is a vision of martyrdom given to John. This vision is describing all those who have been martyred from 2000 years up to the middle of the seven year great tribulation. The dead souls are sleeping right now, and their spirit went back to God who gave it. There are multiple scriptures that mention the sun, moon, stars and an earthquake along with Rev 6:12-14 being in accordance with the seven year great tribulation. - ds

Hi Cletus. It can get a little confusing I know. I will do my best to simplify it. The best translation to use for hell is Gehenna and the Lake of Fire. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place. Hades however is the abode of the dead, the grave where believers and nonbelievers are all dead in their bodies awaiting either the first resurrection or the great white throne judgment. I believe Mark 9:43 is alluding to a picture metaphor that Jesus described in Isa 66:24, mainly because the fire in Jerusalem has burned out. Eternal is also an English translation, what is Hebrew translation for Mark 9:43. Is it olam. I'm simply stating how translators can be at fault. Luke 23:43/translator bias. If translators can be at fault with this, then why wouldn't they be at fault with the subject of time. I understand what you're saying brother, trust me I do. But why is it so difficult to except that when the Bible speaks of eternal hell, it's rather speaking of the description of olam that OneLight posted and eternal life is never-ending. Couldn't it be at least possible. For example, God never gives us authority beyond the finite. In Gen 1:1 it says in the beginning. What came before the beginning. No it doesn't. Olam is an OT word and is not equivalent to any translation. Olam stands alone in originality. Good afternoon Butch. I don't understand something then. Why have christians in general been fighting over this hell forever subject for centuries if we can never return to the original text. There's always a loophole to jump over. Why can't christians just agree that we must wait until we meet the Lord face to face and ask him. Agreed. Very good. Also note the difference between the English mind and the Hebrew mind. - ds

Hi OneLight. Yes, I have searched. The first resurrection is when all believers that are dead in Christ will rise and meet Christ in the air. Rev 20:4-6 The first resurrection I believe will occur right after the sixth seal is open around the middle of the seven year great trib. 2 Cor 5:8 is simply stating the condition of the heart, it never gives a timeline.

The word we are trying to discern without translation is Gehenna (hell in the after life).