tevans9129

 

Hello LAMAD, you have made some interesting comments, some that I disagree with and some that I do not think you can prove with scripture, as it is written. I would enjoy discussing the subject with you if, you are interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion but not on this forum. Either by email or the link below, if you are receptive to the idea, if not, I understand.

Interesting. Why do you not want to have such a discussion here?

 

 

Hi OneLight,

 

I read the ten commandants for posting when I registered and thought I was following them. I never used crude language, I never called any one names and I never asked anyone to do something that I was not willing to do myself in like manner. I expressed my opinion of how truth is more likely to be obtained, if, someone was interested in a serious discussion with me. I was reprimanded for expressing that opinion. Therefore, I do not wish to feel like I am walking on eggs with what I may say when I do not understand the rules correctly.

 

I try to be courteous and respond to those that address comments toward me by simply inviting them to use a different platform. It is their choice, just as I thought it was their choice if they responded to my comments on WCF. I have found most people that post on these forums give their rendition of what scripture says very freely but seem to be allergic to answering questions and providing scripture, as it is written, for evidence.  Furthermore, I have no patience, nor respect, for anyone that intentionally make false statements and I believe that is Biblical as God says He hates a lying tongue.  These comments are my opinions only.

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

We must keep in mind that the two words used together, "great tribulation," was NOT ENOUGH to describe those days Jesus was speaking of.He had to add that there would never, ever be another such time, and there never has been in the past. Therefore, when we see these two words together, "great tribulation" it does not have to be "those days" that Jesus was speaking of.

 

There is tribulation. there has always been "tribulation." This word comes from a tool used to cut up the straw left after harvest. This tool was had sharp teeth and was weighted down and dragged by horses to chop up the straw. It put great pressure upon the straw. From this tool came the word "thlíbō" meaning great pressure. (Or perhaps the tool was named from this word). The Greek word thlípsis was translated into "Tribulation." Tribulation in its most accurate sense is PRESSURE. Consider the three Hebrew youths: they were told they must bow to an idol or be put into a fiery furnace.  Their conscience forbid them to bow to an idol or an image. They were under great pressure.

 

During the days of the "great tribulation" jesus spoke of, again there will be such great pressure: there will be another image with a MARK to go with it. People will be told, WORSHIP this image and take this mark, or lose your head. It will be just like Nebuchadnezzar revisited, only this time, it will be WORLDWIDE.

 

It was "great tribulation" for Jews in the days of Hitler. Millions died. It IS great tribulation today for those Christians living in IRAQ. They are being put to death because of what they believe. How could "tribulation" get any greater than to die? One cannot be killed twice. Yet, what we see today is NOT "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. He was speaking specifically of the days after the abominaiton, when the man of sin declares he is God and must be worshiped. Shortly after the abomination, when the false prophet shows up, the image will be erected and placed in the temple, and then the mark will be established. Then the killing will reach an extreme level. All believers left behind at the rapture (and of course those who turn to Christ after the rapture) will be hunted down like animals and beheaded if they refuse the mark. Thirst will be extreme - for the fresh water will turn to blood (part of God's wrath). Without the mark, no one can buy water. Drinking water will become more precious than gold. GREAT PRESSURE will be put upon people to just take the mark so they can drink. Thirst is a very powerful motivator.

 

Therefore, we have "tribulation" that has existed ever since Adam. 

 

There have been times of "great tribulation" such as the days of Hitler or when Jerusalem was surrounded in 70 AD.

 

There is "great tribulation" today, where thouands of believers are being killed because they serve Christ and not Mohammad. But this is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. John tells us that at the time of the rapture, those caught up will come out of "great tribulation." Yet, at that time John has not yet even started the 70th week, must less arrived at the midpoint and abomination that Jesus spoke of.

There will come days of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of after the abomination. Make no mistake, there is great tribulation going on in the world today, in almost every Muslim nation. John was so right when He wrote that the antichrist spirit would be known by those who deny FATHER AND SON. We know today who denies Jesus as the SON.

 

The seals are not a part of the 70th week. John showed us in Revelation 4-5 that the first seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended back into heaven. We are today between the 5th seal (for the martyrs of the church age) and the 6th seal which is the start of the DAy of the Lord and "the day of His wrath."

 

Make no mistake: God's wrath begins with the "sudden destruction" of Paul, which is the great earthquake at the 6th seal. This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. Then after the 144,000 are sealed, Jesus will break the 7th seal, which is the offical start of the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpets will sound in the first half, and the vials will be poured out late in the second half. This is all clearly laid out in Revelation.

 

We are today waiting on the sound of a loud TRUMPET. WHO will be found worthy to be caught up? (Luke 21:36)

 

LAMAD

Hello LAMAD, you have made some interesting comments, some that I disagree with and some that I do not think you can prove with scripture, as it is written. I would enjoy discussing the subject with you if, you are interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion but not on this forum. Either by email or the link below, if you are receptive to the idea, if not, I understand.

For anyone addressing their comments/questions specifically to me, it is not my intention to ignore you, however, I totally misunderstood the ten commandants of posting in this forum and now that they have been made clear to me, it is obvious that I am not a fit here. If, you are interested in a serious discussion or, if you want me to comment on your post, please send me a PM and I will provide a link where I will respond to your comments. Thanks.

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

I need to step in here. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law and not a classroom. Nobody dictates to anyone how a thread is to be conducted, as long as the conduct is within the ToS. What was presented to you was an opinion of what a person saw in scripture, just as you provided your opinion of what you saw in scripture, and is just as valid.

Keep in mind this site is a ministry, not Facebook or Google Groups. The only ones who can hold any teaching threads are those who are part of this ministry. Discussions are always welcomed, as are debates, but teaching is not.

 

 

My apologizes OneLight for being out of line. I totally misunderstood the ten commandants of posting when I read them and after they were made clear to me, it is obvious that I am not a fit in this forum. Best of wishes to the forum and may God Bless.  Ted

To all that have directed comments on this thread to me. It seems that I totatly misunderstood the ten commandants of posting and once that was made clear to me, it is obvious that I am not a fit in this forum. As a Bible believing Christian, when I make an assertion as fact regarding God's word, I am willing to defend my assertion with scripture, just as it is written, and answer all questions anyone wishes to ask. I not only expect my views to be challenged, I invite them. That seems to be a novel idea for some, asking and answering questions.

 

With that being said, if anyone is interested in a serious Q&A type of discussion on Matthew 24, or any subject for that matter, and/or want me to respond to your comments, send me a PM and I will provide a link where it can happen.

 

Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

Those Jewish disciples are the foundation of the church along with the Word of God and Jesus Christ as the foundation stone, so yes I see the church and the Jews in this verse. For remember what Paul said " in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. 

 

Jewish = 1     church = 1

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

They were also asking What would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age which includes all believers including the church who will be here at this time. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 2     church = 2

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

​Yes, this is a warning to all that believe in Jesus in the end times, which would include the church. Also, see  #1

 

Jewish = 3     church = 3

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name? I would say yes. How many Christians all over the world are being killed  for being Christians?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 4

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

How you ask? Easy look at people like David Koresh, from Waco, TX USA or Warren Jeffs from the Latter day saints. Both were called prophets and both have mislead many, and in David Koresh's case lead them to there death. Each believer is apart of the body of Christ.

 

Jewish = 5     church = 5

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

Read the whole thing in context at Revelation 2: 18-29 but, Revelation 2:26  To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— . Now combine that with where Jesus said Not everyone who says Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven but he who does the will of the Father and I think it's pretty clear.

 

Jewish = 6     church = 6

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews? Because many like myself believe the church will still be here when the AOD takes place so I would think it would be important for all of the Children of God, regardless of what flesh they have.

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

Yes it does, all believers is who it pertains to, unless it is your testimony that nobody but those of Jewish birth can be saved.

 

Jewish = 7     church = 7

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel. No, this is addressed to all believers who are in the area of Israel during this event, not just those of Jewish flesh, but all believers in Christ.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers? Yes it does as I answered above, except if you believe nobody but Jews can be saved during this time.

 

Jewish = 8     church = 8

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  I've seen many use there roofs at the beach here on the east coast of the USA, so people can sun tun without revealing themselves to others. Besides, once again, Are their not Christians living in Israel? Why would this not apply to them?

 

Jewish = 9     church = 9

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

Are you really telling me that Christians can't work in a field or be pregnant with child? Because whether you are speaking physically or Spiritually I am here to tell you the can.

 

Jewish = 10   church = 10

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them. The weather is going crazy all over the world. We have no Idea the things that will take place to affect the weather between now and then, like nuclear war, volcano blast that blocks out the sun and drops the world's temperature. Besides it's never winter all over the world at the same time..

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews? I know of several Christian churches that Honor the Sabbath like that, as well as won't eat pork, and many other things like that.

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 11

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation. I have answered all of your questions. I don't know if it will change your mind or not. I would however like to offer free advice. Take it for whatever it is worth to you. Be careful not to promote YOUR understanding as the only possible answer. Not one of us has a perfect doctrine, that is 100% correct. All of us need each other, because we are part of the body of Christ and none is an island to themselves. I will be praying for you.

 

 

My answers are in your post above in Green.

 

Firestormx

Joseph

 

Thank you Joseph for your comments and especially the manner that you did so, no confusion as to what the comments were directed to and easy to maintain continuity, something not often seen on forums. I would like to respond to your comments but will not do so on this forum. If, you would like to further the discussion and/or see my response to your post, I would ask that you send me a PM and I will give you a link to where this can happen. Thanks for the advice, I hope I get a PM from you as I would really like to respond but I understand if you are not interested. Thanks again.

Hi tevans9129,

 

I totally agree with your stand that Matt. 24 is for Israel. Many people look at the Bible as all about ME but actually it is written about the Lord Jesus Christ & His purposes. The Bible becomes a big muddle when we read it all about us, instead of learning about our Lord. We can learn from seeing what God is doing with others but it is NOT all about US.

 

It`s like reading a story in the newspaper when some one has won some money, then saying to your friends `Oh, I just won the lottery.` When we read the gospels we are reading what Jesus, Israel`s Messiah is saying to them & what will happen to them before He comes to deliver them. The message the disciples would eventually tell the Body of Christ, (when they learnt about it, the B/C through the Apostle Paul,) would be to tell the believers what Jesus said would happen to the people of Israel.

 

Very good, tevan.

Thank you for the kind words Marilyn. I certainly agree with your comments about it is not all about us. I will not offer any further comments on the subject in this forum however.

 

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

 

 

Your wanting to bow out is because after I answered you with Scripture you intentionally disregarded it and my questions. And now you want to make up stories that your questions were not properly answered?

 

Now then, just so you know, you're doing nothing but 'asking questions' is NOT dialogue. It's just asking questions, and if you don't get the specific answer YOU WANT, you claim your questions have not been answered. That is a clear show of dishonesty, being two-faced.

 

1) Salty, here is a list of questions that I have asked you and have not seen you answer.  Why did you not say that you answered my questions rather than “I answered you with Scripture”? That is pretty slick I must admit some folks call it deception.

 

2) Was my comment about Jesus’ return to earth, or was it about Him coming down from heaven to call believers up to meet Him in the air?

 

3) Can you point out where there is anything in those verses about Jesus coming to earth?

 

4) Does it make sense that Jesus would come to earth to call believers to meet Him in the air?

 

6) Can you quote one verse in Zech 14 that is directed toward Christians?

 

7) Where did I imply that Paul knew nothing about Zech 14?

 

8) OK, to whom and for what are the following verses addressing?

 

8b) When is the “day of wrath” of God?

 

8c) When is this “hour of testing”, who is it promised to, how is it accomplished and can you quote scripture as it is written supporting your answers?

 

8d) Who, when and how “shall be saved from the wrath of God?

 

8e) Does that say anything about persecution or tribulation or is it specific to God’s wrath?

 

 

8f) What “wrath to come” is Jesus going to rescue us from?

 

What are your thoughts on Replacement Theology?

 

2) Now, if you will quote your answers for those questions, then I will agree with your assertion, and will apologize for stating that you have not answered my questions. How can you decline such a generous offer? If you cannot, or refuse to, then I think any reasonably intelligent person will have no doubt as to what it means.

Hi tevans9129,

 

I believe looking at Matthew 24th chapter with Jesus as a Jewish Rabbi is a bit off to me.

 

John 8:³⁰ As he spake these words, many believed on him. ³¹ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; ³² And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. ³³ They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? ³⁴ Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. ³⁵ And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. ³⁶ If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

Jesus wasn't preaching Judaism.  What He was preaching is the Good News to man and everything He has said has to be in relation to those that believe in Him;  the church.  His disciples were first called christians at Antioch:  Acts 11:26

 

Anyway:  keeping everything He has said limited only to the Jewish people is forgetting spiritual Israel.

 

John 1:¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ¹³ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 Matthew 24:⁴ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

⁵ For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. ⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. ⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows. ⁹ Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. ¹⁰ And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. ¹¹ And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ¹² And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ¹³ But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Jesus was addressing His disciples and thus applies to all believers that would be His disciples.  Everything that has been said describes leading up to the times we are living in now.  When would anyone know about earthquakes in divers places, but the technology now exist where we would know about earthquakes in the sea.

 

Then note the last verse 14 and remember the angel in Revelations 14 that is to give the everlasting gospel to all the world, followed by an angel announcing the fall of Babylon, and the 3rd angel warning everyone of bruning in the lake of fire as the consequence for taking the mark of the beast.  THose three anegsl sets up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth.

 

And then you read Matthew 24:15 of what any saint living during the great tribulation will see.

 

Matthew 24:¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) ¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: ¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! ²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: ²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

 

Whoso readeth, let him understand would lead to believers of the day living in the great tribulation.  Jesus said that teh days of the elect will be shortened and that means they will not see that.  hint pe tribulational rapture.  The disciples understand that as Jesus was giving the answer of the end, and so now begisn the topic of the signs leading up to when the days of the elect will be shortened before the great tribulation comes.

 

Matthew 24:²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. ²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. ²⁵ Behold, I have told you before. ²⁶ Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. ²⁷ For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. ²⁸ For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

WE are living in that tribulation now that precedes the great tribulation.  All of those "movements of the 'Spirit'" you have been hearing about;  "slain in the Spirit", "Toronto Blessings", "Pensacola Outpouring", and the "holy laughter" movement is the tribulation we were warned to stay away from and not chase after nor serve those seducing spirits in those movements.  Believers need ot repent and return to their first love, the Bridegroom, for help in keeping ther eyes on the Son for He will be coming soon to collect the ready bride of Christ.  So we are living in that "tribulation" before the pre trib rapture come when the great tribulation wll come afterwards.

 

Matthew 24:²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the rest of His words are prepping believers in being ready to escape or else they run the risk of being left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

 

1a) I will be happy to discuss the subject with you, if, you are willing to answer my questions……all of them, just as I will agree to do for you. If not, I do not intend to get into a “you say this and then I say that and then you say no, it really is this” and on and on it goes. I have hundreds of volumes of commentaries that I can read and get their opinions on so I do not see a need for additional commentary, unless, a person is willing to answer all of my questions.

 

2) If I may….

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

 

3) I have no illusions of changing anyone’s mind by offering my commentary on a subject and no one is going to change my mind with their commentary. However, if someone asks me questions about my assertions that I cannot answer nor find an answer for with supporting evidence, then I ask myself, why I have no answer, if, my assertions are correct. That, will cause me to reevaluate my assertions, my opinions and make corrections when needed.

I have a question for tevans9129....Which resurrection is the pre-trib rapture joined to ? The Bible plainly speaks of 2 coming resurrections of a massive amount of people, the first happening at the second coming ,(Rev:20) and the other happening after the 1000 year reign.(Again Rev:20) Would you please provide scripture with your answer.

 

I have a question for tevans9129....Which resurrection is the pre-trib rapture joined to ?

 

1) If I understand correctly what you are asking, my answer is the first, which began at the resurrection of Jesus and more precisely the one referred to in 1Thess 4:16,17

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

1a) “The dead in Christ will rise first”, would you not consider that a resurrection?

 

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

1a) and is also referred to in Isa. 26:19-21

 

 Isaiah 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

 

1b)  Is that not the resurrection of the dead just as is spoken of in 1 Thess 4:16?

 

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course.

 

1c) How does this make any sense if it is not the believers who are called up to meet the Lord in the air and are there throughout the tribulation period, Rev 4 – 18?

 

Isaiah 26:21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.

 

1d) Would you say this is describing the events of Rev 4 -18 and if so, why would the Lord be punishing the church, are our sins not forgiven when we accept Christ as our Savior?

 

1e) Why do you suppose there is not one mention of the church being on earth after Rev 3?

 

The Bible plainly speaks of 2 coming resurrections of a massive amount of people, the first happening at the second coming ,(Rev:20)

 

2) I disagree, the first began with Jesus’ resurrection in Matthew 27.

 

Matthew 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

 

Matthew 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

 

2a) That seems to me to be a long time before Rev 20, do you not think so?

 

 and the other happening after the 1000 year reign.(Again Rev:20) Would you please provide scripture with your answer.

 

3) Again, I must disagree with you.

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

3a) Here is a group that were beheaded in the GT that came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years, so how could they be in the resurrection you suggested?

 

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

 

3b) This is the resurrection of the wicked as explained in vs 11-15 who will be judged at the great white throne.

 

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

 

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

4) How could they reign with Christ for a thousand years if, they were not resurrected until the second resurrection which is after the thousand years?

 

4a) Considering the quoted verses, when would you say those who will reign with Christ for a thousand years were resurrected, before, during or after the tribulation?

 

5) As you can see, I have addressed your comments point-by-point and have answered all of your questions. I have also quoted scripture, just as it is written, in support of my answers and comments.

 

5a) I hope you will extend to me the same courtesy and respond to my post in like manner, will you?

Can anyone tell me if it is possible in this forum to include names within the quote brackets? If it is, can you explain how? This is what I am looking for,

 

  abc test   

 

 

Is it possible?  Thanks

 

Ted

Matthew 24:³ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 

There are 3 questions that the disciples are asking Jesus about.  That's three topics.  So you need to lean on Him to discern which answer He is giving them to which question, because they do not have to be in chronological order, and indeed, they are not in chronological order.

 

The first question was about when that Temple will be thrown down.

 

The second is about the sign of His coming;  not His actual coming but the sign leading up to His coming.

 

And then the end of the world.

 

So His answers to the first question would be about the Jews as far as the Temple is concern, but the rest is in relation to His disciples as it pertains to them personally and thus to the church.

 

Hello and thanks for your comments. I mostly agree with them with the exception of the last one.

 

I am more interested in answers to the questions that I asked, not the ones the disciples asked as that can be another topic.

 

 

 

 

Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.  

 

 

 

Hi Jesse, am I correct in taking you to be a JW? If so, a couple of years ago, a JW elder who had relatives that worked in the WTS headquarters, approached me about having a discussion to see who could prove their position with scripture. He requested that we use emails to conduct the discussion, which we did for several months. He dropped out without a word when I presented my scriptural evidence that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he could not answer my questions.

 

How about you, are you confident that you can prove that your church has replaced the Jew's in God's plan? If interested, I will agree to answer all of your questions, address every point and provide scripture, just as it is written, for evidence, if, you will agree to respond in like manner. What say you?

 

BTW, why did you choose to not answer the questions in my post? If there are too many, feel free to take them one at a time.

 

 

Tevans.9129.

 

No, I dont belong to any denomination,and  I am totally opposed to jw's teachings.

Can you state your question again? I must have missed it ,please.

 

jesse.

 

 

OK, thanks for clearing that up for me Jesse as for the questions, they are all in my first post of the thread. There are many so if you would prefer to address them one at time, unless more are needed for continunity, that would be OK by me....actually, it would be prefered since most that post in this forum do not seem to answer the question in the space that I leave for them.

The abomination of desolation will be the new temple; when it is set up.

The false prophet will claim that for himself,and will sit in the temple as god.

But first the dome sitting on the foundation must be destroyed. That will cause the 3rd ww.

 

jesse.

 

Would I be out of line Jesse in saying that you apparently do not believe that Jesus said what He meant and He means what He said?

 

If you have no interest in answering questions and providing scriptural proof, then I accept your comments as your opinions only, not supported with scripture, is that fair?

 

 

Yes,Jesus was speaking to his flock present and future.

The jews have taken an opposite side to Jesus. 

But not all christians are the elect. There are only 144k elect.

 

jesse.  

 

 

 

Hi Jesse, am I correct in taking you to be a JW? If so, a couple of years ago, a JW elder who had relatives that worked in the WTS headquarters, approached me about having a discussion to see who could prove their position with scripture. He requested that we use emails to conduct the discussion, which we did for several months. He dropped out without a word when I presented my scriptural evidence that the Jews are still God's chosen people and he could not answer my questions.

 

How about you, are you confident that you can prove that your church has replaced the Jew's in God's plan? If interested, I will agree to answer all of your questions, address every point and provide scripture, just as it is written, for evidence, if, you will agree to respond in like manner. What say you?

 

BTW, why did you choose to not answer the questions in my post? If there are too many, feel free to take them one at a time.

 

Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

Mark 13:37

And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

 

Who are the elect ? The Jews or Gentiles or the church  thanks 

 

 

 

I would be thrilled to answer your questions…..just as soon as you answer the ones in my post. To give you a hint, Replacement Theologians cannot prove their position with scripture without making God out to be a liar and untrustworthy, IMO.  

It is true that much of Matt 24 had a Judeo-centric context. Geographically we see Jerusalem, the mount of Olives, Judea mentioned, and of course the disciples are Jews.

 

However, not only is Jesus speaking to Jew, He is speaking to His disciples, the first of His church.

 

 9“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11“Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.12“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. 15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION   . . .

 

Now, who better fits? Is it the Jews who are killed for Jesus name? Christians bear the anme of Christ, non Christian Jews do not. Are these disciples going to see the abomination of desolation? What you believe about that, depends on the predjudices you come to the passage with.

 

If you come to the passage with 19th Century dispensational doctrine, that sees clear cut Jews / Gentiles / Church / Ages separations, then of course you will see it the way you are.

 

What I see, when viewing it through my particular, non-dispensational glasses, is that the people who are gathered up to be with Jesus, are the Elect, Jesus come in the clouds visible, with Angels, a Trumper, a Shout etc. This sounds stunningly familiar to other passages. While you may be able to detect secret invisible comings, and silent shouts and silent trumpets etc, my imagination is not that vivid.

 

You have your little Jewish/Church scorecard, because you assume the church is not pictured, and are arguing from silence. The question here is basically, "Who are the Elect. You can make a case for the Elect being the Jews, because that is of course Biblical. It is equally true, the the Church are refereed to as the Elect, through most of the New Testament.

 

It is not Matt 24 which determines who is who, it is Matt 24 that is the starting place for investigation, and it is a rich starting place, just don't omit the manifold passages that would seem to make better sense with a church raptured after the trib scenario, and be particulary careful, not to read into context, an imminent return of Christ that is not actually expressed. The end times as a whole, are imminent, but His return had/has things that must happen first. Matt 24 lists many of them as long as you do not force a pretrib understanding on it.

 

I was just (coincidentally) reading in a book called "the Rapture Question" by the great pre-trib theologian John F. Walvoord, He has a chapter there called 50 arguments for pretribulationism. Sadly, as great a mind as Dr. Walvoord is, he really fails in this chapter. I agree you might call them arguments, but many of them are not only not proofs, they are not even evidences, The are assertions of his, made from his assumptions and not from the texts themselves. The are sometimes arguments agains other positions, like mid-tribulationism, and some of them are even, dare I say it, lies about church history of doctrine, that he himself contradicts. I don't get it.

 

I invite you to come to the chat trivia event (in the calendar section) scheduled for Sept 5th, to see how well you can answer questions on this topic, which will be limited to what the text actually says, not about what people suppose the texts mean, you might win a prize, if you are good at it.

 

Hello Omeganman,

 

1) Thank you for your interesting comments. However, you did not answer the questions asked, therefore, I still like my argument better and I see no reason to make any adjustments. I am going to take the liberty to paste in my comments from another posts. Not to be confrontational,  just stating my perspective.

 

I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

 

Salty -   I've addressed all points you've raised, and pointed you to the Scriptures on the matter, more Scriptures about the subject than you include in your limited question scope. Sounds like you're wanting to do a bowing out.

 

 

 

 

 1) Salty, there are times when I do “bow out” of a dialogue and the reasons are, if, someone is intentionally dishonest, as an example, if I point out they have not answered my questions and they respond with something like, “I have addressed all of your points” and ignore the fact that they have not answered my questions, then I construe that as being dishonest.

 

2) The number two reason is when they refuse to answer my questions, all of them, and provide supporting evidence with scripture just as it is written.

 

3) I approach a discussion just as is done in an investigation, in a classroom or in a court of law. Truth and facts, as well as the knowledge of the subject, is determined by asking questions and getting answers that can be verified. If the person cannot, or refuses to answer questions, their credibility and/or knowledge of the subject is extremely suspect IMV.

 

4) I have asked a number of questions that you have not answered and if that is general practice for you, then there would be nothing productive from a dialogue. Therefore, if you can answer my questions, all of them, just as I am willing to do for you, I will enthusiastically discuss any subject you choose, if not, then I will not waste your time or mine.

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

1) OK, now that I have provided the definitions and you seem to agree with them, can you answer the question,

 

“3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?”

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9 

 

1) I believe you have misconstrued Matthew 24 for the reasons that I have offered in the link below.

 

 

2) If, you can answer ALL of the questions that I asked in that post and do so with scripture as it is written, then I will adjust my interpretation of the chapter. If not, I believe your assertions are incorrect. What say you?

Matthew 24

 

Many people try to make Matthew 24 about the church/Christians/believers but I do not believe they can make a convincing argument with scripture for that assertion but I am willing to be proven wrong, if, you have something more than just your opinions and can answer my questions, all of them, can you?

 

24:1  Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

 

2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

 

1) A Jewish Rabbi, talking to His Jewish disciples about the Jewish temple, does anyone see the church in there?

 

Jewish = 1     church = 0

 

3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

 

2) Jews sitting on the Mount of Olives and the disciples are asking about the destruction of their temple when it will happen, how does the church figure into this?

 

Jewish = 2     church = 0

 

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, " See to it that no one misleads you.

 

5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

 

6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

 

7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

 

8 " But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

 

3) Do you see any reference to the church in those verses? No, neither do I.

 

Jewish = 3     church = 0

 

9 " Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

 

4) Is Jesus still talking to the Jews, did they suffer tribulation, death and hatred by all nations because of Jesus’ name? Can that be said about the church, is the church hated by all nations because of Jesus’ name?

 

Jewish = 4     church = 0

 

 

10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

 

11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

 

 

5) At that time, what time? The answer is a few verses down. Are prophets associated more with the church or with the Jews? How can a false prophet cause the church to be mislead?

 

Jewish = 5     church = 0

 

 

12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

 

13 " But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

 

6) Can you quote scripture that states the church must endure to the end to be saved? Is a person saved when they accept Christ and are they part of the church at that time?

 

 

Jewish = 6     church = 0

 

14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

 

7) Would you say that is a good hint as to when the end will come?

 

 

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

 

 

8) Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place spoken through Daniel, what does that have to do with the church? Since Jesus specifically referenced the prophet Daniel and the Jewish temple, so would this be important to the church or to the Jews?

 

8a) Does Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15 make the timing of the GT perfectly clear as well as who it pertains to?

 

Jewish = 7     church = 0

 

 

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

 

 

9) Is the church only in Judea and why would it need to flee to the mountains? What about the church in other locales, to where would they flee?  They would not, this is clearly addressed to the Jews of Judea which in the time this was written referred to Israel.

 

9a) This is not the first time that the Jews had to flee Jedia.

 

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zechariah 14:3-5)

 

9b) Is there anything whatsoever to do with believers?

 

Jewish = 8     church = 0

 

 

17 " Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

 

10) How many believers do you know that use their “housetops”, in comparison to the custom of many homes in Israel in Biblical times, that use the housetop as a patio or porch?  

 

Jewish = 9     church = 0

 

 

18 " Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

 

 

19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

 

 

11) Can you explain how either of these admonishments can apply to believers?

 

Jewish = 10   church = 0

 

 

20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

 

 

12) Believers cover most of the world so why would it make any difference to those in Australia if it was winter in Judea? The mountains in Judea can be treacherous in the winter so it could make a huge difference for them.

 

12a) Why would believers be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath? Whereas, Jews were forbidden to go more than 1000 paces on the Sabbath. Does this make sense for believers or, for Jews?

 

 

Jewish = 11   church = 0

 

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

 

 

13) Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 -18, very clearly establishes the time frame for the GT as spoken of by Jesus. Matthew 24 is about the Jews in the “last days” and has nothing whatsoever to do with believers other than informational purposes as to God’s plan for His chosen people. If those who believe differently can provide plausible, scriptural, as it is written, answers to the questions asked, you would convince me that I am wrong in my interpretation.

 

 

 

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

1) I am confused how I missed your point when you said,

 

“Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.” 

 

1a) Can you clarify exactly, what your point was in your phrase, “because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.”?

 

2) Even if I did miss your point, does that preclude you from answering the two questions?

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

 

 

Not only that, they seem to ignore all the verses promising the belivers will escape the wrath of God during the tribulation.

There's a clear distinction between tribulation and God's wrath / judgment.  People tend to use those words interchangeably when it concerns end times prophecy and obfuscate their meanings by turning it into basically a "certain time of yucky".  Pre-tribbers especially like to refer to tribulation as wrath and seven years of wrath and seal judgments and other misnomers because it bolsters their "escapist" claim.  At least that's been my experience.

 

1) Paul said,

 

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

 

1a) Would you call that promise “escapist”?

 

1b) If not, why would you call the promise by Jesus as “escapist”?

 

Revelation 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

As I see it, God's judgment / wrath is in the seven trumpets / vials of the seventh seal.  The first six seals are events that include the great tribulation,not judgments, not wrath.

 

2) Did Jesus not say that the great tribulation would be the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s 70^th week? If that is true, then how could the “first six seals” be in the GT?

 

I think we can all agree that in the world we will have tribulation and at some point it will turn into a great tribulation, and that we are not appointed for wrath.  Substitute "tribulation" with "persecution" and I think its a better read since the meaning of "tribulation" has become convoluted.

 

3) Do you equate “tribulation/persecution” spoken of in the NT as being one and the same with that spoken of in Revelation?

Persecution is something believers should expect to encounter, not escape.

 

4) The Christians that I know would never suggest that we are not to suffer, tribulations/persecutions but we do believe the promises of God that those that will be alive in the last days will not suffer the wrath of God as outlined in Rev 6 – 18. For those that do not want to claim the promises that God has made, you have my prayers.

 

5) If I may ask a couple of questions….do you believe that God is a just and fair God?

 

6) If you do, I have the following question, there were Bible believing twins in the last days, one twin died in an accident and was buried, a few days later, the tribulations and wrath as outlined in Revelation began. The second twin had to endure seven years of pure hell on earth. Do you think a just and fair God would consider that as being fair?

 

The distinction needs to be made.

 

7) Do you believe there is a very distinct difference in tribulations/ persecutions and the great tribulation and the wrath of God as spoken of in Revelation as it pertains to Daniel’s 70th week?

 

8) Does v16,17 seem to suggest that God’s wrath actually began in chapter 6?

 

Revelation 6:16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

 

9) I have asked Salty this question but he is not big on answering questions so perhaps you can, in your opinion, what is the reason for the tribulation period in the last days as spoken of in Revelation?

 

 

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) You missed my point completely, probably from the misconception that the seven year covenant is "pure hell on earth" per your #6.

 

2) The great tribulation is referring to as a time of persecution of believers.  “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matt 24:9  The great tribulation has nothing to do with God's wrath or judgment.  The great tribulation starts at the fifth seal (near the middle of the 7 year covenant) when the the false prophet issues the "worship or die" ultimatum and ends at the sixth seal with the rapture.

 

3) Too vague of a question without establishing definitions.

 

4) I think you are either confused on what God's wrath is or what I said.

 

5) Really?

 

6) Sounds like you're confused on what happens during the 7 year covenant.  As for your sense of fairness...What is that to you?  You should follow Jesus. "So Peter seeing him [John] said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” John 21:21-22, and don't forget about the laborers in the vineyard in Matt 20.  I think your concept of fairness needs work.

 

7) During the 7 year covenant, there is a distinct difference between the great tribulation that believers will endure and the wrath of God.  Yes. 

 

8) Actually, chapter 8, when the seventh seal is opened.

 

9) Define "tribulation period in the last days" as you understand it.

 

When you see the seven year covenant made, and the church is still here, what will you make of it?  Will you double-down on the pre-trib view?  It doesn't really matter.  What matters is that you discern the signs and  refuse to worship the false prophet.  I would focus on that and not the rapture.  We have no say in when the rapture will happen but we do have a say in whether we worship the false prophet or not.  Priorities.

 

 

Your reply supports the notion that unless basic terms and definitions are established up front, the conversation winds up being pretty meaningless.

 

1) Sounds reasonable, I will offer my meanings, generically, in hopes of better understanding.

 

1a) Persecution  NGSM LN39.45- to systematically organize a program to oppress and harass people. (Louw Nida) 

 

1b) Tribulation NASF LN22.2 - trouble involving direct suffering. (Louw Nida)

 

1c) God’s wrath NNSF LN3810 - divine punishment based on God’s angry judgment against someone. (Louw Nida)

 

1d) The more accurate meanings are determined by the morphology of the original word and the context of the passage, therefore, I think it is more appropriate to determine the meaning as it relates to the specific passage.

 

1e) The last days, the latter days, in that day, time of Jacob’s distress – refer to the 70^th week of Daniel, Revelation 6-18.

 

2) Hope this helps you to see my perspective.  Your comments?

I also like the NASB, NKJV, the Septuagint and also use the The Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition. It is not unusual that I may check 15 - 20 translations on subjects of contention.

Some very good guidelines, thanks. I am new to the forum and I enjoy discussing scripture with those with different views from my own as I use it as an incentive for research and study. I respect the opinions of others and have no objections to others enthusasticly defending their beliefs, as I do. We all make mistakes but the one thing that I have zero patience with is people intentionally being dishonest. If it is a mistake and is proven as such with evidence then say it was a mistake, if not, then it would seem to be intentional. I really like the one about answering questions, IMO, that is proof of knowing the subject or not. However, it has been my experience that most people do not like being challenged with questions, I hope it is different in this forum.