Serving

Greetings, I am assuming that I need not quote scripture since this is such a hot topic for so long now. I am also assuming that nobody has used these arguments of mine I am about to put forth, I've searched many times before on the net .. never seen these two points I'm about to share .. this might have changed in recent years? I don't know, been a couple of years since I've checked ..but I don't think so, other wise I'd likely have come across it by now? Or maybe not? That being said, I humbly ask the moderator's that this post remain a stand alone post so these arguments of mine can at least get out there because I've never heard anybody use them before, other words .. new ammunition for the using and benefit of all parties involved. Anyways, my posts never stay "front page" for long anyway, so it'd likely roll over to page two soon enough. Thanks regardless. Here we go .. Here are two problems needing addressing. PROBLEM 1: What happens when the false prophet bursts onto the scene? That "Little Horn" in Daniel? He begins with his "wonderful words". Not with the sword, but with his wonderful words. What does that tell you? It tells you that he wants to convince everybody to follow him, Christians included.He's not coming out swinging the sword just yet .. he's coming out talking. So he starts with words .. very wonderful words. Strong arguments, air tight logic .. well, strong & airtight to those who do not know the Lord, for every one else .. this guy knows what he's talking about. And many "Christians" & those sitting on the fence .. will fall. They will fall because of his wonderful words, his arguments .. "And he shall wear down the saints" .."wear down" .. Now consider the saints being worn down in the context I have put forth .. Worn down is not the same language as "Put to death" now is it? That, "Put to death" comes later .. but not that long later. Not only that, consider something else here .. didn't God say that He would send "Strong Delusion for those who do not know the Lord but had pleasure in unrighteousness?" When would be the time for those who loved pleasure over The Lord to receive strong delusion from God? Well, to believe a lie .. one must first hear the lie, right? And when will one hear the lie(s)? Well, when that little horn appears with his wonderful words, right? And when he starts speaking those wonderful words, who did God say would not be fooled? Yep, those who follow the Lord. So if those who follow AND know the Lord when this wicked man appears with his wonderful words .. those who know and follow the Lord BEFORE this wicked man appears were, by definition .. genuine followers of the Lord, right? That being the case, WHY weren't these saints taken before this wicked man appeared because obviously and clearly .. these saints, by definition alone, are obviously pre-tribulation saints. And what does the Lord tell us happens to those saints? He says that .. they .. get .. put .. to .. death Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. PROBLEM 2: Okay then .. If that wicked man comes not only with his wonderful words but also with an added boost to his mission , being the strong delusion added on top of those wonderful words .. HOW on earth could countless saints who never really knew the Lord before this point, how on earth could they come to the Lord during this phase when they are hearing arguments so mind blowing to them that IF it were possible, even the elect would be deceived .. deceived not only because those word's were so wonderful & convincing, but deceived also because God sent strong delusion ADDED on top of those very powerful words the wicked one shall speak. You see? In this scenario, It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be anything other than pre tribulation saints. This period is obviously God separating the wheat from the chaff for the final harvest. Again, you have to be strong in the Lord before this wicked man even appears to have a chance of not being deceived .. again, by that definition alone .. these saints are/were obviously pre tribulation saints. Houston, we have a problem. I've never heard anybody bring this up before, so please brother's and sisters, if you see the conundrum this puts the pre tribulation lot in, feel free to use these arguments that need answering and get it "out there". I've whipped this up on the spot to just get it out there at long, long last, I could have presented it better, it is what it is .. but I hope I did well enough to at least give pause to those who believe in pre trib rapture to consider what was said .. at least. Thank you.

Greetings, It might sound convincing to you friend, but it does not convince me. I too can see how it would appear within the lens/doctrine you are describing it, to me it is a narrow view confined by somebody's interpretation who was no better than you or I at understanding God's word. But God has a way with words, and He reveals that He uses them in a way that is not always as they seem, He says He does this so that the wise of this world can not (fully) understand. I also believe, concerning the wise of this world, He is also speaking about those (that won't understand) who start religions for profit and notoriety and power and for control also, OR, that started with pure intentions but have become infiltrated by evil men unawares .. that is why, to me, it seems all denominations have one thing in common when it comes to prophecy, and that is that they ALL only have part of the truth each on any given prophecy/subject .. one says this, one says that, one says something else etc etc etc etc almost on every doctrinal/prophetic level with few agreements/interpretations universally agreed upon .. So who is right? Well, I know what kind of follower I am towards the Lord, especially in private where no man sees me .. but these other men who created these perspectives/interpretations that denominations have adopted .. I know not the manner of men they are in private. I refuse to base my salvation on another mans/church's interpretation .. never have, never will. My search will be my own, and my understanding comes from my personal covenant of sacrifice unto the Lord and the understanding which comes from my personal walk with Him .. this way, no man can deceive me, I can only deceive myself .. God forbid. That being said, back to my stating that God has a way with words designed to confuse .. Just take the example of the elements being burned up .. well what elements? I have heard several different denominations that I have looked up thus far some time ago, out of curiosity, describing the elements as literal compounds, earth, water, air etc being destroyed .. and that is in the exact manner you have been taught to view it, and are presenting it .. but not me, I do not agree. When I searched out this matter for and by myself just over a decade ago, I found these scriptures below, thus this is an alternative example/definition/explanation I myself found whilst putting all things together : Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? You see? There is an alternative perspective when looked at free of denominational doctrines on even that ONE single explanation that disagrees with the way you and yours are presenting it. Yet, to me, it does not require the physical destruction of planet earth at all .. NOT YET .. but reveals another perspective that does not require total annihilation of our planet at that stage and at that time .. which thing still allows a very physical and very same planet earth we have today being "used" during the millennial reign of Christ .. altered landscapes/environs sure .. but the same planet earth nevertheless, and not a new heaven & earth for now. Now the other points here : 2 Peter 3:10-13KJV 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. It is not saying to me, that the earth itself will be melted and burned up, as in .. earth is no more, it is totally vaporized, no .. It, to me, is speaking of all of mankind's works he created on this world and her systems of beliefs/types of rule etc that will be destroyed .. except for a few exceptions (types of works) that will be used by the people during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ (type in "durable clothing" for a KJV search and you will see an example of a product made today, being stored up for the people of the millennial reign) . not the resurrected saints, but "Durable clothing" for the humans that live and die during said Millennial reign. The heaven's passing away with a great noise is harder to explain, I do not hold a clear understanding on that declaration, but I sure can postulate on alternative explanations, but I openly admit .. that one itself I can not explain with an actual scriptural quote/example .. but that in itself does not bother me so much within my understanding, that is, it is not imperative that I have an actual biblical quote/verse answer within the context I myself understand is being said because, as I said before .. I can still postulate on it's meaning with some examples that could qualify as a credible explanation, just not actual biblical quotes like the one I gave earlier for the elements. The whole point of the new heaven and the new earth is the creation of an eternal "habitat" where evil no longer exists. But scriptures clearly show the old earth still here when Jesus returns and reigns 1000 years and is only "replaced/destroyed" at a future point in time. And why is God going to create a new heaven and a new earth in the first place? Because the heaven and all things in it have been worshipped by man throughout history, thus by association alone, it is forever tainted and would ever remain a reminder of evil times .. BUT .. that is not going to happen if you make a new heaven and earth, otherwise, how can the; "Former things shall no longer come to mind" come about after all is said and done if we were looking at the same skies we are looking at right now for all eternity? It would forever remind us & come to mind, but God said the former things (our world as it is and has been so long now) will NOT come to mind, sooo .. a new heaven & earth is a must need in that context. In conclusion, there are many scriptures explaining the millennial reign of Christ on the same planet we share today taking place for 1000 years before new heaven and new earth, and the reason for this millennial kingdom is simple .. God made promises to the father's. But Israel failed in her mission, and for the sake of those aforementioned promises unfulfilled even today, Israel will, however, this time round (future),fulfill her role as a light to the nations as God originally intended for them .. the nations being the unbelieving survivors of the wrath of God process that repopulate the earth over the millennium .. and the resurrected saints shall amongst other things, be their, millennial Israel's (invisible) guides when they travel out into the world to preach to the nations as they were meant to do originally .. but failed. Of course there is a lot more to it, I am merely giving a few examples for arguments sake and offering an alternative view, one that can be backed biblically (your overall post that is, not just these few examples I gave) just as much as you have demonstrated biblically too .. But please, always keep your heart open to alternative views if only to provoke your critical thinking skills .. always seek to disprove your own or others interpretations by arming yourself with greater and greater knowledge by reading the bible over and over again which will give you a far wider understanding on every matter rather than the narrow perspective the churches etc give, giving favour to no man or institution nor teacher because simply put .. Christ told us to not only become as our teachers (become as peers all together) but to even surpass them and all of us together becoming well learned and learning instead from men, but directly from the Great Teacher Himself through the Holy Spirit He has put within us .. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And that can only be done through a PRIVATE "covenant of sacrifice" with God, not a covenant with men and their churches who all disagree, but with God. Rise above them, none if us know who any of them were/are in private after all now .. do we? Not worth the risk. Don't let other men's measure of spirit/understanding stifle your own measure of spirit/understanding, who knows, your measure of spirit that God metes out might in fact be intended to surpass your teachers measure of spirit .. but you would never meet that measure if you never question the questioner for and by YOURSELF. Cheers.

Hello William, Yes I agree that the actual opening of the 7th seal is (was) a literal event, no argument from me on that. The reason there was silence for half an hour was that John was being shown the whole process of wrath from it's very beginning (the half hour being the starting point) taking place (where The Lord accepts the prayers of the saints during which time no man could enter the Temple) before which, the seven angels even begin to sound .. Of whose wrath falls upon those with the mark of the beast .. that is all pre 2nd coming .. that is, that beginning stream of information/visions given within the 7th seal actually takes place within the 6th seal. Thus, that information/vision that commences with the opening of the 7th seal is actually looking backwards, describing events taking place in the 6th seal .. backwards .. not forwards as one would expect if it were literal (as in serving the same purpose as the previous 6 seals). So it, the 7th seal, strongly points to being a summary, a summary giving us all insights as to what is coming upon the earth during that 1st phase of wrath (trumps & vials) which ending leads to the 2nd phase of wrath which occurs after the 7th trump sounds (the DAY of wrath itself) .. and beyond. So I call it a summary, even though it also contains future events post 2nd coming, I refer to it as a summary from a future perspective (the new heaven & earth timeline) looking back .. simply because I am not a man of eloquent speech and don't know the true word I should use to describe the process I am describing more succinctly. I understand this probably isn't taught anywhere else, but it is what I see and just seems obvious to me is all, and I wanted to share it. Nevertheless .. I heard somebody explain it differently just recently .. and they explained it like this, "Did you know that men get to heaven before women? He continued .. "Look, (picks up a bible and quotes )" .. "And there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour" .. Lol. Hope I cleared that up William. Cheers.

Greetings, I have noticed talk regarding the 7th seal and it's correct prophetic positioning alongside/amongst the 6 previous seals before it. I think I might be able to provide a different perspective that some may find helpful .. My take on the 7th Seal : The 7th seal does not have the same function as the previous 6 seals before it. The unbroken chain of visions given to John from chapter 8 right through to chapter 22 itself, being a clue to the 7th's seals true function, not to mention the time frames it covers .. from obvious data covering several seals before it, to a jump back in time to the drama played out in Christ's time, right through to the very cusp of God preparing to create the new heaven and the new earth itself, these are all presented as I stated before, presented within an unbroken chain of visions given to John right back in chapter 8 when the 7th seal itself was opened. This unbroken chain, once perceived/seen .. becomes something one cannot un-see and becomes sore obvious as to the function of the 7th seal, and that function is this : the 7th seal is a summary. What the 7th seal isn't .. is a literal event as per the 6 seals that were opened before it. Again, once seen, it can not be un-seen. I hope this helps.

Daniel 9:24-27 – 24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” I think I've thought about this enough to give a credible reason as to why the blue highlighted scripture above was added to the prophecy & why I still do not see it as part of the 70 weeks nor as a link to justify using it in concert with v27 as a duality explaining a future event still yet to come (anti-Christ interpretations etc) .. otherwise known as, a duality. Imagine if you will that no significant & undeniable historical event was mentioned within the prophecy we are speaking of as to signify beyond all doubt to any person who reads the prophecy, believer or non believer, past or present, that .. Messiah had come? And how, without such a historical event could one be 100% sure the 70 weeks had completed without that timestamp of destruction? Imagine how easily the 70 weeks could be manipulated by the enemy without said timestamp? That is why I believe it was inserted into the prophecy .. not as part of the 70 weeks, but as an undeniable timestamp against those who would seek to conceal Messiah in the pages of history, as simple as that. Now lets say for arguments sake that we all agreed on that. And since we agreed, for visual aid .. we just temporarily removed the blue highlights for teaching purposes. Now look how the prophecy reads : Daniel 9:24-27 – 24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” See how much clearer the prophecy becomes? How seamlessly the narrative flows together without that timestamp distracting us? See how it becomes clear that the passages are speaking of Messiah and not a blend of Messiah and of some anti-Christ figure as many have introduced over the years? The funny thing is though, if you are aware of the Jewish writings or have listened to rabbi's speaking about past debates amongst their finest and all others in between you will find that none of them doubted that v26 & v27 were speaking of Messiah, the very people to whom the prophecy was given and were counting down & awaiting for it's fulfillment to come, they all somehow understood and agreed that v26 & v27 spoke of Messiah. It was the many Christian's who came later, who put themselves in positions of authority and were deciphering the prophecy by looking backwards in time instead of looking forwards in time as it was meant to be read, who came up with these different interpretations. And what justified them in doing this? That blue highlighted scripture is what .. that timestamp .. those scriptures were the justification for the many interpretations that have come about within Christian writings, and only recently too .. historically speaking .. all the confusion and divisions amongst us within this prophecy all center around that timestamp. But, but without that timestamp ironically, that confusion/division melts away as we saw. Interesting no? Nevertheless, the rules of duality dictate that any added scripture within a prophecy that is not fulfilled (the blue highlighted parts) can not extend beyond what those unfulfilled scriptures declare as long as they are clearly defined in their conclusion .. and those blue bits are more than definitive because they declare the words "end" within them .. that the events in blue end as stated when X,Y & Z occur .. you can NOT add future events/prophecy when it clearly stated itself that those blue bits were a sign of conclusion .. not a sign of future events for us today, but a conclusion for events that indeed ended exactly as written they would end .. the destruction of 70ad. That is, again, the destruction of the city and temple is clear as day in the blue highlights and no justification for adding any other future events/prophecies using those scriptures beyond said destruction can be justified because said events are given in such language as to be a definitive conclusion to an event that is historically verifiable & not some open ended declaration with no defining end to guide us .. which only leads to division through the many interpretations such an act would cause & has caused. Ask yourself this .. you know what you do behind closed doors .. but all these who came up with all these divided interpretations .. divided being key .. how do you know what they do behind closed doors? So why such faith in men who could be charlatans for all you know? Why not trust your own eyes and your own understanding of scriptures? All you need do is read the N.T to understand v24 .. Ezra & Nehemiah to understand v25, and the N.T again to understand v26 & v27. How hard can that be? You don't need historians or scholars or any other person/institution to understand the prophecy if you just read the scriptures for yourself because the bible explains itself if we are just willing to put in the time instead of waiting for others to do it for us .. because you never know who the charlatans are, but we all know who we ourselves as individuals are. Look at the historians on this subject for example, all of them certified and "credible" historians too .. YET one group says the 70 weeks started/ended in X .. another group say no, it was Y, another says you are both wrong because it is clearly Z !! HOW can you learn by learning from these men of whom you know nothing of when they are behind closed doors? Look how many charlatans have been exposed over the years of whom millions of Christians have followed and of whose doctrines many still preach today .. it's concerning. I know what I do behind closed doors, this is why I always go with my own understanding .. I know who I am, but all those others I do not know, nor do I need to .. all I need is sincerity and a hunger for knowing His ways & implementing them into my life as faithfully as one is able, and for those who do as such, He promised that He would teach, as long as we followed Him sincerely and not for ulterior motive/personal gain. So that is where I stand and why, not that I am anybody of importance, but I am somebody who is sincere in motive .. but how could any of you know if I am a not instead a charlatan? You can't .. so why do you do it with others? Why trust others with what should be your own interpretations? It makes no sense to me .. I'd much rather debate your doctrine makers than debate those who adopt their doctrines to be perfectly honest .. it's harder to convince a follower of a doctrine than the maker of one ironically .. and that's just the way it is unfortunately. So from here I am signing out of this debate .. there are just too many interpretations that I am sure will keep coming for to make any sort of headway .. and I don't have the patience anymore to debate all and every doctrine this debate will bring to the fore. Cheers every & all I interacted with .. God bless.

Hi Charlie, The parts I highlighted above .. I agree with you, that was fulfilled. My point had to do with the possible duality present in the prophecy because the event above happened, and to my reckoning, it happened outside of the 70 weeks prophecy .. So that hints, to me, at it being added information for reasons of a way point instead of a duality. A way point that helps understand other related prophecies within historical context overall. All I am saying that there is still a possibility of a duality. I do lean towards it as a mere waypoint, I'm just admitting that yes, there could be more to it is all. Cheers.

Hi Douggg, I'll get back to you because I must log off .. things to do .. but I will get back to your point. Cheers.

G'day Central Europe, I'm just replying to your post again to say thanks. Thanks for being non combative also .. it makes it far more enjoyable to come back to a debate free of negative vibes .. so thank you too AdHoc. I'm going to be fully open now and admit something about Daniel 9's 70 weeks. I've been hoping to nail down what I am about to admit before bringing it up, but I think I ought to let you know so you can see where I am truly at with the prophecy .. no holding back anymore .. This : Daniel 9:24-27 – 24 “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” Everything in red I believe is completed within the 70 weeks. Blue is obviously future from the end of the 70 weeks from my perspective, so why is it there? And green I can explain within the scope of the red side or the blue side's argument .. it can fit with both point of views. So the rule of thumb with scripture containing unfulfilled information within a prophecy is this, it's either just added in for insight for those looking back on history .. or .. or there is a duality taking place. Usually .. and this hurts to admit .. usually it means a duality is taking place .. I'd wager 90% of the time it means duality is present. And to be honest, I can see how a duality using those blue scriptures and leading in to the final verse below it (v27) can have a credible case when saying it is also linked to the false prophet, the man of sin and of the tribulation period .. how it can indeed be a case of duality. I can see that, it's just that I'm not sure if it is valid .. though credible .. I'm still undecided. So having said that, I can not deny that those blue scriptures above are outside the scope of the 70 weeks and still can't answer to myself if it is indeed a duality or just added information. And every time I try deciphering it to get to the bottom of it .. I find myself trapped in a argument loop with myself which floods my brain with scriptures and I become paralyzed and overwhelmed. I just can't resolve it. Obviously God has not permitted me the answer for a reason .. perhaps I have a bit more overcoming to achieve in my personal life before I can get closure on this frustrating prophecy. Perhaps another thorn in my side needs plucking up by the roots first before the answer gets revealed to me.. hmmm, more than likely. So now you know my overall stance. That's my honest take .. and that's what you get for being civil to me AdHoc .. full open disclosure. Cheers AdHoc.

Hi AdHoc, I fixed my reply to you bro .. This has to do with this : Seeing we have differences at the very beginning of our understanding of the above, I thought I'd show you my interpretation of it so you know how I interpret the 7o sevens .. Key > The blue highlights are to do with the 7 weeks (the rebuilding period).. the green concerns the 62 weeks unto Messiah the Prince, and the orange being the assumed last week, the 70th week at this stage .. reasons why coming up. === Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. === Now this word : "unto" .. "unto the Messiah the Prince" I see as saying count up to Messiah the Prince, up to Messiah's arrival, up to the start of His ministry .. so that at the end of 62 weeks (+7 weeks) Messiah will appear. So the 62 week (+7) count stops when Messiah appears .. hence "unto" Messiah the Prince. This would also explain why the 70th week, or the 1 week was not mentioned at the very start wasn't mentioned yet because the 62 week count stopped at His arrival .. that is, 7 weeks + 62 weeks had passed and Messiah only just appears in the text. So by that method alone, anything coming after the 62 (+ 7) weeks means it must be talking about the 70th week right? Now look at what comes next in v26 below .. the signifier word being "after" === 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. === So there it is .. it says after the 62 weeks Messiah is cut off .. after 69 weeks in total to be precise. Which means that it has to be talking about the last week, the 70th week in orange because after 62 (+7) weeks comes week #70. Which also means that v27 below must also be talking about the last week because it carries on from the verse before it which takes place after the 62 weeks as mentioned .. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” And that's about it AdHoc .. I hope the colourful format I tried out isn't too off-putting and got my point across? Cheers Ad.

Hey if anybody read my reply to AdHoc, I apologize for deleting it, it was very sloppy and I want to rewrite it so it's more understandable .. I should have proof read it properly .. very sloppy indeed on my behalf. Sorry guys.

Hey AdHoc, I just deleted my reply because it was very sloppy and I want to redo it so it is clearer .. I should have proof read before posting .. sorry bro .. I will repost my reply tonight or tomorrow. regards.

Hi AdHoc, Firstly, I'd like to point out that there were two camps in Jesus' day out of "thy people" .. those who accepted Him of "thy people" and those who rejected Him, who would become over time "Not My people" (over time because Jesus was still pleading with the rebels right up till 70ad). Yet Hosea reveals to us that even amongst that "not My people" group, they will one day be called "My people" again, correct .. but that event is still future even today for those under the "not My people" camp. Secondly, I'd like to point out that Jesus was indeed of "thy people" when made flesh .. besides the lineage provided in Matthew etc, here are a couple of other examples : Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. John 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Seeing that Jesus was made flesh, born of a woman into the tribe of David being a Jew .. doesn't that in itself show that Jesus was indeed of "thy people" ? Of course it does. Therefore, who amongst "thy people" carried on with the sacrifices and abominations right up until 70ad? Well, those called "not My people" carried on with those abominations & sacrifices .. the ones who rejected Jesus. But those of "thy people" who accepted Christ did no such thing. Hence, the requirements were indeed met by not only our Lord when in the flesh, but those of "thy people" & "thy city" who accepted Him. Again, the others considered "not My people" who rejected Christ are those who carried on with those abominations & practices. Thirdly, I'd like to highlight the fact that when God anointed our Lord as you mentioned .. you made a slight boo boo .. you see, God the Father is not of "thy people" .. the requirements required one of "thy people" to anoint the Lord, not for God Himself to anoint Him, but one of "thy people" was to anoint Him .. and did. This is why our Lord made such a big deal of it .. it was a pivotal event whereby her name was to be memorialized for ever to be tied to that anointing given to Him, given by one of "thy people" at that. If we consider the requirements that God laid out in Daniel 9, and consider that they were made for a people under a very strict law .. and how the Apostle even admitted that no man could keep all of that law : Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Then what other man on earth besides the Lord Himself could accomplish such a thing as per laid out in the requirements of which we speak? What man/people group by itself is able to bring in everlasting righteousness for example? That would take something more than a mere man could achieve, especially a man under the law .. indeed, only a perfect man from amongst "thy people" could achieve that, someone to stand in the breach as it were .. we all know who could and did do that though .. our Lord Jesus the Christ. I am only giving brief answers too .. we could get even deeper but that would take a lot of scriptures and much eye strain to achieve, Lol, but my goal is not to convince, but just to give another perspective. After all, none of this affects our salvation, so I am not overly combative nor feel the need to prove my case .. I merely pose a counter argument is all. Cheers AdHoc.

Hi Rollin, This is what I see from my own study .. The time frame allotted upon both the people & the holy city : “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city The requirements within the commandment God set forth : to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. If we just concentrate on the requirements above for now, discarding the 70 weeks for now, and find that the requirements were all met .. then all the number crunching & details thereafter in verses 25,26 & 27 become secondary simply because the requirements were met .. and if met, then the 70 weeks allotment was indeed fulfilled after all. God did say that the 70 weeks were determined upon them .. that is, God set 70 weeks for to fulfill all the requirements that He laid out above .. meaning, God pre-determined how long it would take for said requirements to be fulfilled. ONLY if one or any of those requirements were not met could one justify a supposed unfulfilled week to become a future week .. prophetically speaking. The requirements are not beholden to the details in v's 25-27 Rollin simply because the details are the explanation as to how the requirements were fulfilled. So the only question we really need ask is whether all the requirements were met or not. And if they were .. then no missing week can be justified and moved forward in time and added to things it ought not be added to I put the below evidence together quickly, so hopefully it suffices for now : to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. finish the transgression : Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. end of sins : 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. reconciliation for iniquity : Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. bring in everlasting righteousness : Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth. Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, seal up the vision and prophecy : Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: anoint the most Holy : Mark 14:1-9 1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. 2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people. 3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. 4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? 5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her. 6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. 8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. 9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. We see that everything was indeed fulfilled Rollin, wouldn't that mean that the 70 weeks were fulfilled too? God did say it would take 70 weeks to fulfil after all and behold, they were indeed fulfilled. The problem with the missing week in my opinion is nothing more that a problem of interpretation. Though I didn't entertain verses 25-27, I am willing to address any of them that you would like addressed if unsatisfied with the above .. Cheers.

Hi Marilyn, Long time no speak huh. When AFlameOfFire and I were chatting I didn't get the chance to tell you that I actually understood what "Better resurrection" meant before you posted this post before Flame and I were even finished chatting, Lol, you were very quick on the draw, I'll give you that. Instead, I was musing over some other points to consider relating to "Better resurrection" that never occurred to me before is all .. Even though I don't agree with everything you posted, overall, I agree with your general description of better resurrection minus a small few hiccups therein. I still thank you for going to the effort of posting this though. After all, none of us agree on everything right? I do want to say this though .. when I read Rev 12, I perceive that Satan was kicked out of heaven either when Christ was crucified or when Christ ascended, between that narrow window anyways .. I'm still 50/50 on the actual timing though, have been for years. So thanks again Marilyn, cheers.

I was originally speaking about one thing, but something occurred to me when in the process of answering you earlier of which I never considered before. This is part of it, not what I realized tonight, but connected to it .. you probably won't agree, that's okay .. but you asked for a bone thrown your way after all .. these are just my thoughts laid out .. my opinion .. I could be wrong. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Which Spirit? Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. More specific still : Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Spirit of Christ was not in the world .. ever (hear me out to understand what I mean) .. until Pentecost .. that Holy living essence sent to dwell & grow within the saints. The Holy Spirit sent forth to gaff with our souls that James spoke of .. that living essence of Christ's Spirit sent to grow within all who believe and teaches us the gospel of Christ and more. For convenience sake, lets call this Spirit of Christ sent into the world at Pentecost, Holy Spirit version 2.0 Version 2.0 being infused with, lets say, the gospel of Christ .. just imagine that only H/S version 2.0 is used to raise us right .. O.T version 1.0 needs to be upgraded within those of old for whom it dwelt within during O.T times, so H/S 2.0 is needed for Romans 8:9 & 11 to take effect. Meaning, those seeking a better resurrection which we were chatting about, who never had the Spirit of His Son in them .. must first go through Ezekiel 37, whose raised up mortal bodies enter the Millennial Kingdom for to not only receive the Spirit of His Son in them as we hopefully all have, but to learn His doctrine too .. because again, they have Holy Spirit version 1.0, so to speak .. and again, 1.0 did not have the gospel of His Son infused within "it" .. this is why they are all brought back in the flesh and not in the spirit like Christ's saints are at the 2nd coming. Again, see Ezekiel 37, the whole chapter .. a few mysteries in there to be found. And all of that led me to something that didn't occur to me before tonight .. something that that prophecy was not talking about. And I need to think about this new realization a bit more .. it directly ties in with "Better resurrection" and questions I never thought of before. Again, with what I said above .. you might agree, you might not. Either way, this has been very fruitful for me .. thanks Flame.

Oh, Marilyn posted for you .. All good, after the effort Marilyn put in I'll just leave you with it. Have a good one.

Hahaha, No no, like me, you like to work things out yourself, so far be it from me to ruin your fun .. you probably got an answer anyway .. maybe, maybe not? Tell you what, if you can be bothered, doesn't faze me either way btw .. did you already ask yourself that question? Which resurrection he's speaking of? Just curious.

Flame, Besides seeking the examples you queried above, this word : "Better" has implications right? So keeping that in mind, would I be wrong in assuming that your line of questioning really has to do with determining which "Resurrection" is being spoken of here, or am I mistaken?

Hi AdHoc, I read what you said carefully and I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from. I won't debate anything you declared because your reply wasn't given in that spirit of debate but was your musings and advice rolled into one. Cheers for the advice at the end, advice I too have given many times over the years, so I hear you. I hope I don't come across as un-teachable nor am judged in that light it's just that um, err, how can I say this .. um, before coming to worthy I did 7 solid years of debating on the most popular forum of it's day, over 400 000 members alone .. debating "normies" like us, debating pastors, authors, many scholars and a professor or two, multiple thousands of interactions covering every subject you can think of and shown and been told that I am quite capable and do in fact understand scriptures quite well, to the point where I was rarely directly challenged by anyone near the end of my association with said site, even those who really really didn't like me .. my "enemies" were all at peace with me, even though they vehemently disagreed with me on certain stances, but not all stance just some .. And would even privately message me asking not to go on their posts and challenge them because people were turning to my interpretation on a matter as though it were some grave insult to them or some popularity contest I was ruining for them or something like that. I say this to show I'm not self deluded nor have visions of grandeur, not that you said anything of the sort of course, just covering bases .. but simply because others, over time, never accused that about me, over time being the key point of course .. it's just that I do have a good grasp of scripture is all and could see the merit of the argument I now support when I first scrutinized it for myself .. meaning, I NEVER debate anything blindly. But those 7 years were my "service years" so to speak, I was like Paul .. a bulldog .. I now practice a different approach and take a far far more laid back approach and rarely post these days unless it's something I feel inspired to debate or discuss. I really truly don't say this to boast, okay, okay, maybe 10 % of a boast though it's not MY knowledge it's God who provides so any boast would be hollow if it were a self centered boast, Lol, but I can assure you AdHoc, that the times I have been shown to be wrong in the past, I have instantly admitted my error/corrected my mistake and all without hesitation. I don't worry about my honor simply because it's not about me, God will decide if I get shamed or justified or anything in-between. And thanks bro for your compliment, I don't always live up to it though, sometimes the old soldier comes out and I can say the wrong thing or react the wrong way that could come across as a bit nasty/unfriendly/un Christ-like .. I call it battle fatigue, Lol. God bless.

Shilohsfoal, This is your summary of your whole objection I am answering : "Eastern Egypt ,east of the Nile is not going to be split off the promised land." You may have misunderstood me, I am not saying that, "Eastern Egypt, East of the Nile" is going to split off the promised land. The split is way way further south into the African continent. I am saying that the projection of the land mass points to that land mass breaking away and eventually blocking the Egyptian Sea from the Ocean which will cause the Egyptian Sea to dry up thus fulfilling the prophecy as to one of the means God uses to dry up the Egyptian Sea. Does that answer your protest?

Will do later tonight for sure .. I haven't dropped in the Science & Faith section for a while now, I'll come take a look. Peace out.

Lol, yeah I'm with you there brother, and what you are saying is 100% true and just as valid as any other proposal the unbelieving side could come up with as for an explanation .. I appreciate your graciousness Mr.M .. I respect that.

Mr.M, Okay I apologize for the misunderstanding. You were referring to the great rift forming in those times. But my post is speaking about the land mass breaking off because of that rift and it's end result. I too already knew the rift has been there a long time, how could I not since I've been researching it. As for the rift coming about originally in the days of Uzziah, have you got evidence for that because that part, I've never heard before. So I apologize for misunderstanding you, I was wrong in assuming you said what you didn't.

Oh I see, No matter what I say, you just want to rebut me, I get it .. even though you were wrong about Zechariah 14:5 already happening. Since you want to concentrate on a minor point and not the prophecy itself, I mean really bro?? this is what you want to argue about?? Okay then, lets start with you acknowledging you were wrong about Zechariah 14:5 .. THEN I will address your "point" of contention .. Unbelievable.

Hi Mr.M, The rift emerged in 2005, it is well documented. Zechariah 14 is future and the event therein takes place in Israel. Zechariah 14:1-5 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Day of the Lord is future. Hasn't happened yet. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. This takes place right before Armageddon itself .. there is the war where all the world gets involved against Isralel & there is Armageddon where that war stops and all the armies train their weapons against the Lord coming in the clouds. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Still hasn't happened yet. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Still hasn't happened yet, the Lord touches down on the Mount of Olives at His second coming, so still future. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Look at my highlight above .. like what happened in the days of Uzziah, the Lord will do something similar but obviously on a grander scale. Cheers.